Instable tuning even with locking tuners - '82 Westone Concord III

[Francois]

Hi everyone !

I am tuning issues with that Westone Concord III (from Matsumoku, february 1982) a very Fender-ish japanese guitar I purchased in october on a GAS roll :

Its wide fretboard is ideal for wide bends (up to 5 half tones in the middle of the neck instead of 4 on other guitars) and the vibrato goes low as well. But after any bend or "tremolo" use it goes out of tune.
Tuning changes clearly shows that a small part of the string moved over the nut and did not come back :
Too low after a bend, too high after tremolo abuse.

I tried lobe oil in several places, I tried without the string going under the small retaining rings on the head, I replace the old tuning key by new Fender locking tuners... But the problem remains.


My idea is that the slots in the nuts need to be widened but before I do that (I have 10 - 46 files) I would like to ask your opinion. I never saw this before on any guitar. I use 10 - 46 strings the slot should not be to small for regular string on a vintage guitar.

 

[Blille]

Re: Instable tuning even with locking tuners - '82 Westone Concord III

It’s unusual but if you see it that clearly, particularly on a single string, I wouldn’t wait.

Other two things could be the tremolo not going back to its neutral position (add a spring) and bad strings (change them). But it’s almost always the nut when one has tuning issues.

 

[Francois]

Re: Instable tuning even with locking tuners - '82 Westone Concord III

I size the opportunity to give little info on a not so known guitar :

https://i1.wp.com/www.westoneguitars.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/032.jpg

http://www.westoneguitars.net/guitars/concord-series/concord-iii/

It does not have the shape of a Strat but it has a lot in common, except that the tremolo bridge is plain brass and the ceramic SC are a bit louder.
The neck is a single and big piece of maple.
It plays excellently with a Big Muff !
I will later change the pickups to SSL-5 (and CS69 ?) but I would like to keep the original pickups for a few months.

 

[Francois]

Re: Instable tuning even with locking tuners - '82 Westone Concord III

Thanks Blille for advise.

Other two things could be the tremolo not going back to its neutral position (add a spring) and bad strings (change them).

For the tremolo springs : I changed them as soon as I bought that guitar because they were old and weak.
When I bend a string I want to make sure other strings does not detune in case you use another string as drone.
In that case hard springs are required.

 

[Francois]

Re: Instable tuning even with locking tuners - '82 Westone Concord III

But how wide should be a nut slot ? Close to the string or little spaced ?

 

[Mincer]

Re: Instable tuning even with locking tuners - '82 Westone Concord III

My first thought is that it isn't the tuners at all, but the nut. That is the most common source of a string not returning to pitch.

 

[Blille]

Re: Instable tuning even with locking tuners - '82 Westone Concord III

Thanks Blille for advise.



For the tremolo springs : I changed them as soon as I bought that guitar because they were old and weak.
When I bend a string I want to make sure other strings does not detune in case you use another string as drone.
In that case hard springs are required.

Well, then the nut it has to be.

But how wide should be a nut slot ? Close to the string or little spaced ?

Not sure I understand the question but when I widen a nut slot for a thicker gauge I usually have the string or piece of string close by and file in small increments until it moves smoothly. A bit of filing goes a long way IME. Then again, I’m not a luthier so there may be a more scientific way to do this

 

[VinceT]

Re: Instable tuning even with locking tuners - '82 Westone Concord III

But how wide should be a nut slot ? Close to the string or little spaced ?

First off, I agree it sounds like the nut slots. I file mine slightly larger than the string diameter

(and, particularly on Les Paul style heads, slightly diagonal (and rounded) to compensate for the break angle - though that shouldn’t be an issue for the Westone)

If you haven’t filed but slots before, be VERY careful of going too deep.

Watch this video, in the section on slotting the nut, it’s a great method - hard to get wrong.

https://youtu.be/-V-kMF2Sk3o


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[NegativeEase]

Re: Instable tuning even with locking tuners - '82 Westone Concord III

yes -the nut -in my experience -nut is the number one culprit in tuning issues by a wide margin.

 

[Francois]

Re: Instable tuning even with locking tuners - '82 Westone Concord III

Thanks everybody for your input.

So after more attempts : filing a little the slot without going deeper, lubing again all contact points (bridge included) and using locking tuners the problem remains. So the culpit was a silly tremolo block design !!! see the pics below.

The first one is the Concord III : brass tremolo block seen from below. The holes are not deep enough so a long part of the string goes through it (On a Tele or PRS this is OK as there is only one contact point on the bridge.) But in this design the string is fold in two places : saddles and upper hole of the tremolo block block. This is probably the root of the problem.



Here is the tremolo block of my guitar n°1 (early Jeff Beck Strat) the holes are deep :

 

[Gtrjunior]

Re: Instable tuning even with locking tuners - '82 Westone Concord III

Check that the trem block is secured tightly to the trem plate. If it is loose it will never stay in tune.

Also, it is a common misconception that locking tuners will keep a guitar in tune better than non locking tuners.
They merely provide a way for the string to be clamped or “locked” into the tuning peg hole. It will not provide greater tuning stability.


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[Ayrton]

Re: Instable tuning even with locking tuners - '82 Westone Concord III

My first thought is that it isn't the tuners at all, but the nut. That is the most common source of a string not returning to pitch.

The nut, it is always the nut.

The slots for plain strings are smaller so they are more prone to pinching the string.

 

[Jacew]

Re: Instable tuning even with locking tuners - '82 Westone Concord III

What about those string trees? They look pretty suspectible to tuning issues to me.

You might not need string trees with locking tuners anyway, so I would first take strings off them and see if the problem persists.

If it does work fine without them, better to ditch them.

 

[Francois]

Re: Instable tuning even with locking tuners - '82 Westone Concord III

What about those string trees? They look pretty suspectible to tuning issues to me.

You might not need string trees with locking tuners anyway, so I would first take strings off them and see if the problem persists.

If it does work fine without them, better to ditch them.

Yes my first though was that it was because of the strings trees. But I already tried without.

 

[Francois]

Re: Instable tuning even with locking tuners - '82 Westone Concord III

Check that the trem block is secured tightly to the trem plate. If it is loose it will never stay in tune.

Thanks ! This is a very good idea !

Also, it is a common misconception that locking tuners will keep a guitar in tune better than non locking tuners.
They merely provide a way for the string to be clamped or “locked” into the tuning peg hole. It will not provide greater tuning stability.

Interesting view which is right when the strings are perfectly set on the tuners, the tuners not too old and you have done some violent bends and tuned again a few times...
But otherwise I disagree.
And the locking tuners has many advanges (quicker change of tuning and instant stability for example).

 

[Gtrjunior]

Instable tuning even with locking tuners - '82 Westone Concord III

Thanks ! This is a very good idea !



Interesting view which is right when the strings are perfectly set on the tuners, the tuners not too old and you have done some violent bends and tuned again a few times...
But otherwise I disagree.
And the locking tuners has many advanges (quicker change of tuning and instant stability for example).

Yes, the locking tuners will make string changes faster but they do not keep a guitar in tune better than a non locking tuner.
If you are going out of tune after violent string bends the problem is the nut. When you bend a string the string slides in the nut slot and I goes out of tune because the string is binding in the nut slot and not returning to it’s starting point.
I have locking tuners on 2 of my Les Pauls. One has a Tusq nut, the other bone. The bone nut was constantly going out of tune. I replaced it with a Tusq nut and now it keeps tune fine. The bone nut slots were not cut properly.

 

[Mincer]

Re: Instable tuning even with locking tuners - '82 Westone Concord III

I am a big fan of the TUSQ nut- it just works, and it is is easy to work with.

 

[Gtrjunior]

Re: Instable tuning even with locking tuners - '82 Westone Concord III

I am a big fan of the TUSQ nut- it just works, and it is is easy to work with.

It really is a great product. I’d recommend them to anyone.

 

[Jacew]

Re: Instable tuning even with locking tuners - '82 Westone Concord III

It really is a great product. I’d recommend them to anyone.

Maybe I ought to give it a try... I've been on/off about upgrading nut in my main guitar. Just haven't done it because current "synthetic bone" has been just fine and I've been suspicious I won't succeed filing bone as well as current one is done.

 

[Gtrjunior]

Re: Instable tuning even with locking tuners - '82 Westone Concord III

Maybe I ought to give it a try... I've been on/off about upgrading nut in my main guitar. Just haven't done it because current "synthetic bone" has been just fine and I've been suspicious I won't succeed filing bone as well as current one is done.

I understand that concern. I bought the pre-slotted nut but still you need to file the edges so that it sits at the right height and so that it is flush on the sides of the neck.
I sanded as much as I was comfortable doing but in the end I brought it to my local shop to finish the job.
If your current nut is working well, I say leave it alone for now. When the day comes that you have a problem with it, replace it then.