Is Seymour Duncan Stealing Pickup Ideas?
- Thread starter telepicker
- Start date
Re: Is Seymour Duncan Stealing Pickup Ideas?
Isn't great to think that with the millions of guitar payers out there - most of us being fairly creative individuals - that we all have these original, amazing new product ideas that no one else has ever thought of?
After what ... 40 years of fixing, designing and building pickups, don't you think Seymour, the genious of pickup design, or MJ, one of the most knowledgable pickup builders ever, woudn't have thought of combining a Strat coil and a P-90 coil? There is a very good reason why their workshop is called a custom shop.
Isn't great to think that with the millions of guitar payers out there - most of us being fairly creative individuals - that we all have these original, amazing new product ideas that no one else has ever thought of?
After what ... 40 years of fixing, designing and building pickups, don't you think Seymour, the genious of pickup design, or MJ, one of the most knowledgable pickup builders ever, woudn't have thought of combining a Strat coil and a P-90 coil? There is a very good reason why their workshop is called a custom shop.
Fusion1
New member
Re: Is Seymour Duncan Stealing Pickup Ideas?
I know the quote is a bit presumptuous, but doesn't he have a valid point? If someone has a unique idea and contracts the custom shop to build the pickup, does that mean they now own all rights to that design, in which they can later market and sell as their own?
An example I am thinking of is Eddie Van Halen's Wolfgang model he designed for Peavey. If and when his contract runs out (maybe it has already and I am unaware) would Peavey still be allowed to sell a Wolfgang that was designed in part or wholly by EVH? I would think not. Not without a huge lawsuit or settlement from EVH's legal counsel.
Thoughts? Evan?
I know the quote is a bit presumptuous, but doesn't he have a valid point? If someone has a unique idea and contracts the custom shop to build the pickup, does that mean they now own all rights to that design, in which they can later market and sell as their own?
An example I am thinking of is Eddie Van Halen's Wolfgang model he designed for Peavey. If and when his contract runs out (maybe it has already and I am unaware) would Peavey still be allowed to sell a Wolfgang that was designed in part or wholly by EVH? I would think not. Not without a huge lawsuit or settlement from EVH's legal counsel.
Thoughts? Evan?
Robert S.
Super Moderator
Re: Is Seymour Duncan Stealing Pickup Ideas?
Is that to mean that if I order a 15k C-5 that I somehow had an idea I now own?
Guitar pickups are amazingly simple devices and there isn't a whole lot of innovation going on. Put a common baseplate on 50 different HBs and the vast majority of people won't know what they are looking at.
It's amazing how many people claim to "own" 50 year old technology and yet aren't even 50 years old.
Is that to mean that if I order a 15k C-5 that I somehow had an idea I now own?
Guitar pickups are amazingly simple devices and there isn't a whole lot of innovation going on. Put a common baseplate on 50 different HBs and the vast majority of people won't know what they are looking at.
It's amazing how many people claim to "own" 50 year old technology and yet aren't even 50 years old.
Artie
Peaveyologist
Re: Is Seymour Duncan Stealing Pickup Ideas?
This may be a bad analogy, but I see this like going to a taylor. If I have a pair of pants custom made with 42.3" waistline and a 36" inseam, (this is purely hypothetical, mind you), does that mean that taylor can never make that size again, 'cause I thought of it? Or how about if I get one pant leg in denim, and one in courderoy?
The reason you go to a custom designer is so they can design the object. They did the work, and should own the design. If you want the design to be yours, you go to a contractor and have it built for you. Then you market it.
This may be a bad analogy, but I see this like going to a taylor. If I have a pair of pants custom made with 42.3" waistline and a 36" inseam, (this is purely hypothetical, mind you), does that mean that taylor can never make that size again, 'cause I thought of it? Or how about if I get one pant leg in denim, and one in courderoy?
The reason you go to a custom designer is so they can design the object. They did the work, and should own the design. If you want the design to be yours, you go to a contractor and have it built for you. Then you market it.
Evan Skopp
SDUGF Founder
Re: Is Seymour Duncan Stealing Pickup Ideas?
Here's my thought. In a nutshell, anything is possible, but it should all be spelled out up front.
If you ask the custom shop for a JB with a little more bottom end and Seymour winds it for you, do you now "own" that design? In my opinion, no. Unless you contracted with Seymour beforehand to create a custom pickup design that you would own exclusively.
We do make exclusive designs for customers. The Pearly Gates Plus for Fender, for example, or the Basslines passive soapbars we make for Fodera. But there's a price for exclusivity and that has to be spelled out up front too. (In the case of Fender and Fodera and others, there are design fees, quantity commitments, NRE charges, and sometimes tooling costs that are borne by the customer). The Phat Cat started as a Hamer exclusive, but then the agreed-to period of exclusivity expired and then we went public with it. But it was done on the up-and-up pursuant to an agreement.
If you want an exclusive pickup design from Seymour, he'll do it. But it's going to cost a lot more than $160. Basically, you're going to pay not only for Seymour's time creating the design for you, but you're also going to have to pay us for all the business we didn't receive by keeping the pickup exclusive to you. And that could be a lot.
$160 is not a lot of money for a custom shop pickup, hand made by Seymour and MJ. But the reason they can make a custom creation for that amount of money is because now they have a new design that can sell down the road and recoup the R&D costs.
If you were to order a new BMW with the Premium Package, leatherette seats, in-dash CD player, GPS, and upgraded wheels in Alpine White, do you honestly think you own that specific design and BMW would be unethically profiting from "your design" by selling it to other customers? Of course not.
On the other hand, if you contracted with BMW to create a custom car which would be exclusive to you and nobody else could purchase it, I bet they would be willing to do that for you. But it's going to cost a lot more than the production model.
Rob Super at guitarelectronics.com will draw up a wiring diagram for you for only $30. But then it becomes public property. He'd probably do one for you and not make it public property, but it's would cost more than $30.
This is basically saying the same thing as Artie.
Bottom line: it's all in the deal. And it all needs to be spelled out up front. You want exclusive? You gotta pay for exclusivity on top of the price of the pickup.
Interesting point.Fusion1 said:
Here's my thought. In a nutshell, anything is possible, but it should all be spelled out up front.
If you ask the custom shop for a JB with a little more bottom end and Seymour winds it for you, do you now "own" that design? In my opinion, no. Unless you contracted with Seymour beforehand to create a custom pickup design that you would own exclusively.
We do make exclusive designs for customers. The Pearly Gates Plus for Fender, for example, or the Basslines passive soapbars we make for Fodera. But there's a price for exclusivity and that has to be spelled out up front too. (In the case of Fender and Fodera and others, there are design fees, quantity commitments, NRE charges, and sometimes tooling costs that are borne by the customer). The Phat Cat started as a Hamer exclusive, but then the agreed-to period of exclusivity expired and then we went public with it. But it was done on the up-and-up pursuant to an agreement.
If you want an exclusive pickup design from Seymour, he'll do it. But it's going to cost a lot more than $160. Basically, you're going to pay not only for Seymour's time creating the design for you, but you're also going to have to pay us for all the business we didn't receive by keeping the pickup exclusive to you. And that could be a lot.
$160 is not a lot of money for a custom shop pickup, hand made by Seymour and MJ. But the reason they can make a custom creation for that amount of money is because now they have a new design that can sell down the road and recoup the R&D costs.
If you were to order a new BMW with the Premium Package, leatherette seats, in-dash CD player, GPS, and upgraded wheels in Alpine White, do you honestly think you own that specific design and BMW would be unethically profiting from "your design" by selling it to other customers? Of course not.
On the other hand, if you contracted with BMW to create a custom car which would be exclusive to you and nobody else could purchase it, I bet they would be willing to do that for you. But it's going to cost a lot more than the production model.
Rob Super at guitarelectronics.com will draw up a wiring diagram for you for only $30. But then it becomes public property. He'd probably do one for you and not make it public property, but it's would cost more than $30.
This is basically saying the same thing as Artie.
Bottom line: it's all in the deal. And it all needs to be spelled out up front. You want exclusive? You gotta pay for exclusivity on top of the price of the pickup.
Dooogz
New member
Re: Is Seymour Duncan Stealing Pickup Ideas?
I think Evan spelt it out very well there. I was going to make a point about other consumables ie cars, or if you buy a sofa and you ask for the colour to be changed slightly to suit you (it doesnt mean u own that design) merely that you had it adjustd for your needs!!
I think Evan spelt it out very well there. I was going to make a point about other consumables ie cars, or if you buy a sofa and you ask for the colour to be changed slightly to suit you (it doesnt mean u own that design) merely that you had it adjustd for your needs!!
T
TheArchitect
Guest
Re: Is Seymour Duncan Stealing Pickup Ideas?
Eddie owns those rights in that case because it was specified in the contract. Because while Eddie may say it needs more bass, Peavey engineers have to figure out how to alter the design to get that. Eddie didn't really design anything, the engineer did. So in my view, he is incorrect. Evan is right on the money. If you want exclusivity 1)patent it. and 2) build it yourself or reach and exclusive deal Duncan or some other maker to build it for you.
Fusion1 said:
Eddie owns those rights in that case because it was specified in the contract. Because while Eddie may say it needs more bass, Peavey engineers have to figure out how to alter the design to get that. Eddie didn't really design anything, the engineer did. So in my view, he is incorrect. Evan is right on the money. If you want exclusivity 1)patent it. and 2) build it yourself or reach and exclusive deal Duncan or some other maker to build it for you.
Fusion1
New member
Re: Is Seymour Duncan Stealing Pickup Ideas?
Excellent post Evan thanks for clearing that up.
Artie and Robert S., I was referring to basically a new design more than just a JB or C5 with more winds or something like that.
I guess my point was like say 20+ years ago some guy wanted Seymour to build him a Hot Rails before it existed. I guess Evan's post makes it clear that guy would have had to come up with the cost for Seymour to pursue the R&D to recoup the costs.
I'm not indicating like the guy on that other forum that Seymour would see the design and then secretly have plans to mass market the thing once he built the pickup for the customer. I'm sure Seymour would even bring up the point of there being potential in a design that could be marketable, giving the customer the heads up on that.
Seymour seems top notch all the way and he is #1 for a reason. His honesty and integrity have played a big part of that I'm sure. You have to respect a man that cares enough about his customers to create a forum for them.
Evan Skopp said:
Excellent post Evan thanks for clearing that up.
Artie and Robert S., I was referring to basically a new design more than just a JB or C5 with more winds or something like that.
I guess my point was like say 20+ years ago some guy wanted Seymour to build him a Hot Rails before it existed. I guess Evan's post makes it clear that guy would have had to come up with the cost for Seymour to pursue the R&D to recoup the costs.
I'm not indicating like the guy on that other forum that Seymour would see the design and then secretly have plans to mass market the thing once he built the pickup for the customer. I'm sure Seymour would even bring up the point of there being potential in a design that could be marketable, giving the customer the heads up on that.
Seymour seems top notch all the way and he is #1 for a reason. His honesty and integrity have played a big part of that I'm sure. You have to respect a man that cares enough about his customers to create a forum for them.
L
Lewguitar
Guest
Re: Is Seymour Duncan Stealing Pickup Ideas?
I don't know how much of a hand EVH had in the design of the Ernie Ball/ Musicman EVH guitar...but when Eddie jumped ship to go with Peavey, Ernie Ball/Musicman continued making that same guitar and just renamed it the Axis.
Fusion1 said:
I don't know how much of a hand EVH had in the design of the Ernie Ball/ Musicman EVH guitar...but when Eddie jumped ship to go with Peavey, Ernie Ball/Musicman continued making that same guitar and just renamed it the Axis.
texasguitarslinger
Mo Cow Bellologist
Re: Is Seymour Duncan Stealing Pickup Ideas?
Who's got the patent on trolling forums? :smoker:
Who's got the patent on trolling forums? :smoker:
telepicker
New member
Re: Is Seymour Duncan Stealing Pickup Ideas?
No I'm not the Dimarzio lawyer. and I havent been able to get on for awhile.
Yeah I started the thread to get answers and I must say, a lot of people viewed the thread. Seymour did visit the ampage forum and posted there. My hat goes off to him. Comments from SK and Lollar as well as others went backwards and forwards there too. If anyone was upset by my starting this thread well...stiff **** !
I asked a question and thats the purpose of forums.
There is a lot of loyalty to Seymour Duncan and that's fine. There is also the debate re: Dimarzio and Kinman. Both sides have their stories and both sides have their supporters. Make your own decisions.
No I'm not the Dimarzio lawyer. and I havent been able to get on for awhile.
Yeah I started the thread to get answers and I must say, a lot of people viewed the thread. Seymour did visit the ampage forum and posted there. My hat goes off to him. Comments from SK and Lollar as well as others went backwards and forwards there too. If anyone was upset by my starting this thread well...stiff **** !
I asked a question and thats the purpose of forums.
There is a lot of loyalty to Seymour Duncan and that's fine. There is also the debate re: Dimarzio and Kinman. Both sides have their stories and both sides have their supporters. Make your own decisions.
Curly
Moe's Bluesman
Re: Is Seymour Duncan Stealing Pickup Ideas?
Fortunately, the owners of the forum, and most of the members are gracious enough to answer your questions honestly and forthrightly.
This matter most likely could have been resolved gracefully by the parties involved, rather than a secondhand source.
For the record, I've seen Seymour helping countless players on an individual basis at guitar shows. I've had friends tell me about Seymour's generosity in helping them with pickups. Seymour himself mentioned this in his post on Ampage, except in the context of helping other pickup winders, like Jason Lollar, who said that Seymour had helped him.
Yes, there is a lot of loyalty to Seymour Duncan on this forum, and it's based in large part on the man's character.
Your original question, and your assertions, on the other hand, are entirely inconsistent with his character.
Peace
not upset, so much as rather surprised by the lack of tact you showed in presenting the question in an intentionally provocative manner.telepicker said:
Fortunately, the owners of the forum, and most of the members are gracious enough to answer your questions honestly and forthrightly.
This matter most likely could have been resolved gracefully by the parties involved, rather than a secondhand source.
For the record, I've seen Seymour helping countless players on an individual basis at guitar shows. I've had friends tell me about Seymour's generosity in helping them with pickups. Seymour himself mentioned this in his post on Ampage, except in the context of helping other pickup winders, like Jason Lollar, who said that Seymour had helped him.
Yes, there is a lot of loyalty to Seymour Duncan on this forum, and it's based in large part on the man's character.
Your original question, and your assertions, on the other hand, are entirely inconsistent with his character.
Peace
Lightning
New member
Re: Is Seymour Duncan Stealing Pickup Ideas?
Ya know Les Paul only got a pittance for every LP sold (something like 6 cents each) but he got something…at least it was legal rather corporate thievery.
To all the Gandhi's here spreading the meaning of life for free...man what do ya say…THANKS!
To those who control the pickup industry (as someone said earlier) your in that position, you have it, yet you can't get off mag wire gauges...what?
Myself...I have always presented myself as a jerk or wire gauge activist only for the good of those on a tone quest. I started hybriding PUs and I had to get away from the source of the inspiration to do so. I couldn't give up the secret recipe as Evan calls it.
Ever so often I drop in cause I miss those who are the Gandhis' of tone and those new comers who are searching cause I learn from them too, to realize my selfishness.
In a recent thread a cat was building a guitar for slide and wanted opinions on a single neck pickup. I could have poured my heart out to the dude but I didn't...what can I say...I'm I a jerk...or just protecting my patentable ideas or just keeping a lid on the secret recipe.
I do not feel right about this especially in the eyes of the peace love cool Gandhis' here who give there heart and soul sharing everything they have learned along the tone quest yet I stand reserved.
I hope after making this note that it doesn't affect the peace love cool Gandhis' here who give there heart and soul sharing everything they have learned along the tone quest, willingness to give information to me lol!
Look guys we give our ideas freely here and are yet oppressed by the rike of the pickup rulers...why is there a magnet wire guessing game here?
The Hypocrite
PS Please show me a sign, (Lightning bolt) Taw!
Ya know Les Paul only got a pittance for every LP sold (something like 6 cents each) but he got something…at least it was legal rather corporate thievery.
To all the Gandhi's here spreading the meaning of life for free...man what do ya say…THANKS!
To those who control the pickup industry (as someone said earlier) your in that position, you have it, yet you can't get off mag wire gauges...what?
Myself...I have always presented myself as a jerk or wire gauge activist only for the good of those on a tone quest. I started hybriding PUs and I had to get away from the source of the inspiration to do so. I couldn't give up the secret recipe as Evan calls it.
Ever so often I drop in cause I miss those who are the Gandhis' of tone and those new comers who are searching cause I learn from them too, to realize my selfishness.
In a recent thread a cat was building a guitar for slide and wanted opinions on a single neck pickup. I could have poured my heart out to the dude but I didn't...what can I say...I'm I a jerk...or just protecting my patentable ideas or just keeping a lid on the secret recipe.
I do not feel right about this especially in the eyes of the peace love cool Gandhis' here who give there heart and soul sharing everything they have learned along the tone quest yet I stand reserved.
I hope after making this note that it doesn't affect the peace love cool Gandhis' here who give there heart and soul sharing everything they have learned along the tone quest, willingness to give information to me lol!
Look guys we give our ideas freely here and are yet oppressed by the rike of the pickup rulers...why is there a magnet wire guessing game here?
The Hypocrite
PS Please show me a sign, (Lightning bolt) Taw!
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