I've been listening to some older albums...
- Thread starter misterwhizzy
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Chickenwings
Alnico 6/8
Re: I've been listening to some older albums...
For something to sound big, it needs something small to give it scale. Dynamics are the key to sounding big, too much gain reduces dynamics. Reduce the gain and you get an increase in dynamics. Win.
For something to sound big, it needs something small to give it scale. Dynamics are the key to sounding big, too much gain reduces dynamics. Reduce the gain and you get an increase in dynamics. Win.
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MetalManiac
Li'l Junior Member
Re: I've been listening to some older albums...
Lets not confuse gain with distortion. Even with an Old Skool Marshall, I can get ridiculous distortion with a pedal to make some amazingly fast and cool soundingl eads ( that turn to slop when I dial the distortion back down).
Some of the modern super high gain amps do a great job at keeping rythyms and leads tight even under massive gain. Thats the one missing link in my collection, is a modern high gain amp.They can be pretty unforgiving when playing them as opposed to heavy distortion, and it takes a lot of skill. No, not as "dynamic" as an old Hot Rod Marshall, but what they lack in dynamics, they make up for in speed and articulation . Punch? Don't give me punch, a mesa Recto is punchy as all hell.
Lets not confuse gain with distortion. Even with an Old Skool Marshall, I can get ridiculous distortion with a pedal to make some amazingly fast and cool soundingl eads ( that turn to slop when I dial the distortion back down).
Some of the modern super high gain amps do a great job at keeping rythyms and leads tight even under massive gain. Thats the one missing link in my collection, is a modern high gain amp.They can be pretty unforgiving when playing them as opposed to heavy distortion, and it takes a lot of skill. No, not as "dynamic" as an old Hot Rod Marshall, but what they lack in dynamics, they make up for in speed and articulation . Punch? Don't give me punch, a mesa Recto is punchy as all hell.
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zenmindbeginner
New member
Re: I've been listening to some older albums...
I think it's 2 things:
1). Less gain is key but you need enough to get the job done... just removing gain isn't the key because a lot of these guys were using non master volume amps cranked way up. They were getting more gain and compression than you are hearing but because power tube distortion and compression is very transparent, we just aren't noticing it.
2). The biggest thing I hear when I hear vintage recordings is a lack of LOW END. A lot of the vintage rock and roll tones are quite raspy and thin sounding when isolated but sound perfect when seated in the mix. It's this lack of the bottom octave that makes a guitar track lean forward and sound like it is jumping out of the speakers.
Of course the usual high gain culprits are the same guys who add too much low end to their rigs... they wanna sound HUGE but just end up robbing the drummer and bass player of their frequencies while simultaneously removing any "air" in the mix.
So, it's gain... but it's also an overabundance of frequencies below 80Hz IMHO.
I think it's 2 things:
1). Less gain is key but you need enough to get the job done... just removing gain isn't the key because a lot of these guys were using non master volume amps cranked way up. They were getting more gain and compression than you are hearing but because power tube distortion and compression is very transparent, we just aren't noticing it.
2). The biggest thing I hear when I hear vintage recordings is a lack of LOW END. A lot of the vintage rock and roll tones are quite raspy and thin sounding when isolated but sound perfect when seated in the mix. It's this lack of the bottom octave that makes a guitar track lean forward and sound like it is jumping out of the speakers.
Of course the usual high gain culprits are the same guys who add too much low end to their rigs... they wanna sound HUGE but just end up robbing the drummer and bass player of their frequencies while simultaneously removing any "air" in the mix.
So, it's gain... but it's also an overabundance of frequencies below 80Hz IMHO.
Re: I've been listening to some older albums...
Back in the day they had these guys called 'bass players'. They stood in the back and didn't move around much (I think they were counting beats or something and didn't want to be distracted). Now you have guys with 8-strings on their guitars who play through sub woofers. That makes bass players (and erksin) sad.
Back in the day they had these guys called 'bass players'. They stood in the back and didn't move around much (I think they were counting beats or something and didn't want to be distracted). Now you have guys with 8-strings on their guitars who play through sub woofers. That makes bass players (and erksin) sad.
Lazarus1140
New member
dominus
King Midas to Cheap Guitars
Myaccount876
Amira-Maker
Re: I've been listening to some older albums...
Very generally:
The distortion you are talking about, comes from the sound compressing and clipping from having higher gain. Gain comes from the increased power on signal by pushing energy (overdrive - driving the signal harder and moderately clipping and compressing it) or clipping the signal (distortion - signal pushed harder than overdrive to the point of a high degree of clipping and compression).
With distortion, that automatically means a very large amount of gain. From what I know, when there is no longer any headroom from the gain being maxed (the gain may be the volume), heavy compression and clipping (solid state - diode; tube - preamp tube) occur and you have distortion.
By nature, gain will gradually lead to distortion, which by definition is the addition of outside noise (those harmonics you hear in a good distortion). Too much outside noise will made it hard to hear individual sounds, which is unavoidable past a certain point. This is the "mush" described by many in this thread.
I pretty much prefer as much gain as I can get out of a true single coil without uncontrollable noise. Too much of any signal in my band setting with 3 guitars will be a disaster, and lead only to mush.
In any mix, there are many other sounds which have to blend alongside your sound, and all should be clearly audible. The more gain a guitarist has will introduce too much signal on their part, and then the mix as a whole has too much signal and becomes mush. This is why on its own, the guitar can handle quite a bit of gain until becoming mush, but when played with other instruments, needs to have less gain to make room for others. Many metal bands nowadays have this problem, and a part of it (but not all of it) is the "loudness war" which adds way too much gain and compression. Another part of it is the guitarists not knowing any better or being arrogant by not listening to the audio engineer/sound guy.
Also - guitars should leave the low end to the bass and certain parts of the drums. Too much low end on a guitar will cause too much input for that frequency range and lead to a lot of mud. Same with any other frequency, there has to be frequency pockets for everyone so they may have there place without too much overlap causing too much input. Mids and some highs are usually the best and largest pocket for the guitar in a rock/metal mix.
Very generally:
The distortion you are talking about, comes from the sound compressing and clipping from having higher gain. Gain comes from the increased power on signal by pushing energy (overdrive - driving the signal harder and moderately clipping and compressing it) or clipping the signal (distortion - signal pushed harder than overdrive to the point of a high degree of clipping and compression).
With distortion, that automatically means a very large amount of gain. From what I know, when there is no longer any headroom from the gain being maxed (the gain may be the volume), heavy compression and clipping (solid state - diode; tube - preamp tube) occur and you have distortion.
By nature, gain will gradually lead to distortion, which by definition is the addition of outside noise (those harmonics you hear in a good distortion). Too much outside noise will made it hard to hear individual sounds, which is unavoidable past a certain point. This is the "mush" described by many in this thread.
I pretty much prefer as much gain as I can get out of a true single coil without uncontrollable noise. Too much of any signal in my band setting with 3 guitars will be a disaster, and lead only to mush.
In any mix, there are many other sounds which have to blend alongside your sound, and all should be clearly audible. The more gain a guitarist has will introduce too much signal on their part, and then the mix as a whole has too much signal and becomes mush. This is why on its own, the guitar can handle quite a bit of gain until becoming mush, but when played with other instruments, needs to have less gain to make room for others. Many metal bands nowadays have this problem, and a part of it (but not all of it) is the "loudness war" which adds way too much gain and compression. Another part of it is the guitarists not knowing any better or being arrogant by not listening to the audio engineer/sound guy.
Also - guitars should leave the low end to the bass and certain parts of the drums. Too much low end on a guitar will cause too much input for that frequency range and lead to a lot of mud. Same with any other frequency, there has to be frequency pockets for everyone so they may have there place without too much overlap causing too much input. Mids and some highs are usually the best and largest pocket for the guitar in a rock/metal mix.
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Drunken Bowling
New member
Re: I've been listening to some older albums...
I used to use a lot of gain, and always scoop the mids when I was a kid. But after a while I was tired of the tone always mushing out. Then one day I read somewhere that Joe Perry usually kept everything (eq-wise) on his amps set at about 5 or in that ballpark, and he generally doesn't use a lot of gain, so I decided to use that as a starting point and just tweak a few things here and there depending on what guitar I use. It worked.
I used to use a lot of gain, and always scoop the mids when I was a kid. But after a while I was tired of the tone always mushing out. Then one day I read somewhere that Joe Perry usually kept everything (eq-wise) on his amps set at about 5 or in that ballpark, and he generally doesn't use a lot of gain, so I decided to use that as a starting point and just tweak a few things here and there depending on what guitar I use. It worked.
Securb
One of Jerry's Kids
Re: I've been listening to some older albums...
Being a Boston guitarist I worship at the altar of Perry as all of us in this city do. And I too try to keep my amp and EQ very neutral and control my tone with the guitar. Seeing I also have a heavy Iommi influence I do tweak the controls a bit up on the bass side with a little mid bump ever so slightly. Right now my gain is set to 4.
Being a Boston guitarist I worship at the altar of Perry as all of us in this city do. And I too try to keep my amp and EQ very neutral and control my tone with the guitar. Seeing I also have a heavy Iommi influence I do tweak the controls a bit up on the bass side with a little mid bump ever so slightly. Right now my gain is set to 4.
Nacho8807
New member
Re: I've been listening to some older albums...
I learned pretty quickly that the more I turned up the gain, the less I actually heard myself. I don't go above two-thirds on the gain on any amp. I just boost the mids to help me cut through and give my guitar that big heavy sound I'm looking for.
I learned pretty quickly that the more I turned up the gain, the less I actually heard myself. I don't go above two-thirds on the gain on any amp. I just boost the mids to help me cut through and give my guitar that big heavy sound I'm looking for.
PFDarkside
of the Forum
Re: I've been listening to some older albums...
I agree completely. All the really heavy stuff I like never exceeds this gain level. But most of those artists ate following in the footsteps of Iommi... Then again, me and death metal, technical death and all that stuff don't get along.
I agree completely. All the really heavy stuff I like never exceeds this gain level. But most of those artists ate following in the footsteps of Iommi... Then again, me and death metal, technical death and all that stuff don't get along.
Phantasmagoria
watch where you point that sabre
Re: I've been listening to some older albums...
I used to play with a ton of gain.... & now, 20 years later, I still do
I guess it depends on what what you listen to and the sound you're going for. With a lot of people ..over time, their musical tastes change. I count myself lucky that mine have'nt. I'm still stuck on 80's underground/classic metal, doom, thrash, early 90's death metal, modern death metal/grind etc ..so no easing off into CSNY/Grateful Dead land here...and no easing off the gain either :naughty:
As far as I'm concerned the problem with lack of gain on recordings is that they end up sounding "sterile" (think Neil Kernon or Iron Maiden's last few...). Dirt, sizzle & grind gives a guitar tone stuff like "life", "grit" & "character".
Yeah, very often that does'nt translate to a great modern recorded tone. But a nice grinding, thick, nasty, brutal snarl will earn you kudos live every time..
I used to play with a ton of gain.... & now, 20 years later, I still do
I guess it depends on what what you listen to and the sound you're going for. With a lot of people ..over time, their musical tastes change. I count myself lucky that mine have'nt. I'm still stuck on 80's underground/classic metal, doom, thrash, early 90's death metal, modern death metal/grind etc ..so no easing off into CSNY/Grateful Dead land here...and no easing off the gain either :naughty:
As far as I'm concerned the problem with lack of gain on recordings is that they end up sounding "sterile" (think Neil Kernon or Iron Maiden's last few...). Dirt, sizzle & grind gives a guitar tone stuff like "life", "grit" & "character".
Yeah, very often that does'nt translate to a great modern recorded tone. But a nice grinding, thick, nasty, brutal snarl will earn you kudos live every time..
Dr. Vegetable
New member
Re: I've been listening to some older albums...
Of course there is not just one right amount of gain that will suit every player, so we could debate this until the end of time.
But the OP has a point... When I go back to listen to a recording that I think of as "heavy", I realize that the actual tones used are not nearly as heavy as I remember them. Jimmy Page and SRV are classic examples of players who sound crunchy even when playing clean. AC/DC, VH, GnR - all heavy bands but if you listen they are not completely gained out. (At least not as completely gained out as they sound at first blush.) I can't speak to the Cookie Monster genre because I don't watch Sesame Street any more.
Mild gain causes the shape of the guitar waveform to get bent a little bit, but extreme gain lops the heads off the top of all your signals. This sharp cut introduces a lot of uniform high frequency noise into your signal, while removing much of the natural high frequency content. This is why too much gain can sound like angry bees. By design, it takes a lot of the uniqueness out of every cycle of your signal, which makes the note sound more consistent as it sustains, but less organic. Extreme high gain (into the clipping region) is replacing your organic guitar signal with a more mechanical square wave.
The more I play, the less I tend to over-exaggerate the stylings of my influences.
Of course there is not just one right amount of gain that will suit every player, so we could debate this until the end of time.
But the OP has a point... When I go back to listen to a recording that I think of as "heavy", I realize that the actual tones used are not nearly as heavy as I remember them. Jimmy Page and SRV are classic examples of players who sound crunchy even when playing clean. AC/DC, VH, GnR - all heavy bands but if you listen they are not completely gained out. (At least not as completely gained out as they sound at first blush.) I can't speak to the Cookie Monster genre because I don't watch Sesame Street any more.
Mild gain causes the shape of the guitar waveform to get bent a little bit, but extreme gain lops the heads off the top of all your signals. This sharp cut introduces a lot of uniform high frequency noise into your signal, while removing much of the natural high frequency content. This is why too much gain can sound like angry bees. By design, it takes a lot of the uniqueness out of every cycle of your signal, which makes the note sound more consistent as it sustains, but less organic. Extreme high gain (into the clipping region) is replacing your organic guitar signal with a more mechanical square wave.
The more I play, the less I tend to over-exaggerate the stylings of my influences.
Agileguy_101
Master of his Domain
Re: I've been listening to some older albums...
Listen to Led Zep's recordings, then go listen to them live. Page uses WAY more gain live. What no mufuggas?!?
Listen to Led Zep's recordings, then go listen to them live. Page uses WAY more gain live. What no mufuggas?!?
Re: I've been listening to some older albums...
BTW: Permission To Land is an awesome album. When I'm sitting around jamming I'll pull out Thing Called Love. Drives the old lady crazy. She hates Justin Hawkins vocals. Good for a laugh when I try to sing it. I think it works for them. Plus he & Dan are awesome guitarists.
BTW: Permission To Land is an awesome album. When I'm sitting around jamming I'll pull out Thing Called Love. Drives the old lady crazy. She hates Justin Hawkins vocals. Good for a laugh when I try to sing it. I think it works for them. Plus he & Dan are awesome guitarists.
Re: I've been listening to some older albums...
Very true. Did he not use the tonebender fuzz on the albums? Just live? Not to mention they played pretty damn loud and marshall's get power tube gainy loud.
Very true. Did he not use the tonebender fuzz on the albums? Just live? Not to mention they played pretty damn loud and marshall's get power tube gainy loud.
Agileguy_101
Master of his Domain
Re: I've been listening to some older albums...
I don't actually know how much he used a tonebender live. My reference for his live tone is How The West Was Won. If you listen to that album and compare those songs to their album versions, they are just so much more powerful because of the extra gain.
I don't actually know how much he used a tonebender live. My reference for his live tone is How The West Was Won. If you listen to that album and compare those songs to their album versions, they are just so much more powerful because of the extra gain.
IMENATOR
Well-known member
Re: I've been listening to some older albums...
I think it depends on the kind of music you want to play. I have noticed I kind of abuse from high gain when trying to get a powerful palm muted riff for metal. I recently found out that cure for me was to play enough clean and smooth overdrive music so my ear and brain can actually notice the contrast and enjoy more the less gain tones. I am getting rid of my Boss Metal Core and switching to my new PlimSoul and Boss Power Stack, and for metal tones I can still use a couple of metal emulations from my Cube amp.
P.D. I still love a lot of gain for metal, I can't help it
I think it depends on the kind of music you want to play. I have noticed I kind of abuse from high gain when trying to get a powerful palm muted riff for metal. I recently found out that cure for me was to play enough clean and smooth overdrive music so my ear and brain can actually notice the contrast and enjoy more the less gain tones. I am getting rid of my Boss Metal Core and switching to my new PlimSoul and Boss Power Stack, and for metal tones I can still use a couple of metal emulations from my Cube amp.
P.D. I still love a lot of gain for metal, I can't help it
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