Locking nut quality and tuning stability

I had a Schaller Lockmeister and an R3 nut installed on a 96 Jackson Dinky with no issues whatsoever. Setup and intonation were spot in.

Synapsys , was your Dinky US or Japanese? I'm thinking on my Japanese guitars if I use a regular R3 nut the nut will be too tall and the action way too high.

If I'm correct the main difference between the Schaller non-Lockmeister and the Lockmeister is the Lockmeister is slightly larger--basically an exact copy of an OFR in size.

To the other comments about string retainers, etc., something to think about is potential bind and friction points on the string. Something designed to help keep a string in tune isn't going to help if it helps the string to bind and break.

And we haven't discussed sustain block size. The popular thing for a few years now has been to get a big block Floyd, mainly due to FUTone and other sites.

However, I think the cheaper licensed bridges are actually smoother in motion--less sustain, yes, but also less weight, and a smaller block that can't bump into the wood and interfere with range of motion. So I prefer the smallest block size--32mm.

I do have a Schaller Ruthenium bridge which is 42mm. It was bought from a domestic dealer so it was slightly cheaper than getting it straight from Schaller in Germany. We'll see how that goes.

For any of you who have satin chrome hardware and need a Schaller replacement, I don't think they make a color that is an exact match. I have found through trial and error that neither nickel nor ruthenium is an exact match with OFR satin chrome. It's hard to tell this from Schaller's pictures.

Mincer , your comment brings to mind the Floyd Rose Speedloader system, I think. If I remember correctly it required double balled strings as well, and that requirement was one of the reasons the Speedloader wasn't more successful.
 
Something else about a bigger sustain block that I forgot to mention (it won't let me edit the comment for some reason) is potentially undesirable increased bass. A guitar with pickup X and a zinc block may have just enough low end, but the same guitar and pickup with a huge block may become a muddy mess and require a brighter pickup.

I plan on all my guitars to sound slightly different after all the bridge retrofitting. It's going to be a long night at the solder bench.
 
Mine was a japanese DK2. The only issue was merely cosmetic, since the Lockmeister's baseplate was shaped differently from the stcok JT580LP.
 

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Beautiful guitar. I had the same issue with the gap around the edges with an OFR--less so with the Schaller non-Lockmeister.

The line drawing shows it as being 92.2 mm across for the non-Lockmeister.

If I read the diagram correctly it looks like the Lockmeister is 91.7 mm across.

Front to back the non-Lockmeister is 64.5 mm max. The Lockmeister is 76 mm max.

The smaller front to back size is why I went with the non-Lockmeister version. It fits my guitar better than the Lockmeister does.

I'll have to try the R3 vs. the R8. .278" vs. .225" seems like a big difference.

https://schaller.info/en/tremolos/359/schaller-tremolo?c=51

https://schaller.info/en/tremolos/364/lockmeister-6?c=51
 
As an update on this thread, I have finished my Jackson KV3 I was working on with this thread in mind.

It has an OFR, Full Shred set with Triple Shots on both pickups, the neck pickup is a push/pull wired for phase, and the bridge pickup is a Shadow killswitch pot.

The two volumes are independent.

I designed this as versatile as possible as a lead guitar in standard tuning.

What this will let me do is:

1) Get any coil combination I want from either pickup.
2) Get an out of phase AND parallel sound for brighter, thinner sounding cleans, especially from the neck pickup.
3) Allow me to alter that sound further by going to the middle toggle position and turning down the pickup I do not want if needed (to my ears going to middle toggle thins the sound even further when a pickup is isolated in that position).
4) Use a killswitch when soloing from the bridge pickup.

The only limitations I might have with it is the lack of independent tone knobs/killswitches for each pickup, but I don't solo that much from the neck and I only use a tone knob when I need to fatten up a clean or solo sound. I don't ride the tone knob for effect.

I tried the import clamps on the OFR nut and the OFR pads on the import nut. Things work with some reservations. There's a bit of a gap between the OFR clamps and the import nut. It looks like more than the gap with the OFR nut and clamps. That larger gap might create tuning instability. I don't know.

I eventually switched back to the OFR nut and clamps. Tuning was fine after a few stretches. Usually I dive bomb and pull up slowly back and forth several times when I have a new set of strings put on. Eventually they adjust.

(As an aside, the OFR clamps were actually salvaged from a FR Pro I never used. I lost the OFR clamps. The Pro clamps worked in the OFR nut flawlessly.)

Looking forward to fluttering the whammy bar while using the killswitch. :) Thanks for the help, all.
 
Another update on this one for another guitar. In conclusion, yes you can use import locking nuts with higher quality bridges and have good tuning stability.

I built an LTD F-200 with a Schaller Floyd Rose (non-Lockmeister) and a Mastertone VHOn/SPA2. I set it up for Bb standard tuning, 12 gauge strings, and a killswitch.

I kept the import nut and, in the back, the import screws, springs, and claw. I didn't want to use larger screws because they would take out more wood and I didn't want to have to resolder the bridge ground wire to a new claw, so I used what was in the guitar. I didn't worry about a loss of tone due to import parts much. The sustain block was already a bit bigger than normal--42mm--so it stuck out the back cavity a bit. I removed the spring cavity cover and left it off.

The only thing that was Schaller was the bridge: essentially the baseplate, the sustain block, the saddles, the saddle blocks, the whammy bar, etc.

After setting up the claw, truss rod, action, and string length, I used the bar pretty aggressively, dipping it to the wood and pulling the strings sharp about a minor or major third--as far as it would go sharp.

After a few times doing this, the strings stayed in tune, barely moving a few cents on the strobe tuner. Not even 1/4 of a step.

What I've learned:
1) The import nut works fine to keep the strings in tune as long as the nut pads aren't excessively worn.

2) The most important parts of the tremolo system for tuning stability seem to be the saddles and saddle blocks.

3) A common issue on Floyds--the strings going sharp after locking the nut down--can be fixed by tightening the string retainer on the headstock if you have one. I have a video from Frudua to thank for this: https://youtu.be/JBF3LCQk7zg?t=206

Until now I considered a string retainer to be mostly decorative or there for peace of mind if a string broke above the nut.

I thought tightening the retainer would be a bad thing by putting additional stress on the strings between the nut and headstock. But, it helped the guitar stay in tune the more the retainer was screwed down into the wood. With the retainer screwed in further, the strings stopped going sharp whenever I clamped the locking nut down.

4) The most important part of keeping a Floyd in tune is setting up the spring claw correctly. To do this I sometimes do what I call "tuning it from the back."

If the strings are within a step or so of the desired pitch I will leave the headstock tuners alone and only adjust the springs in the back until the strings and bridge are at equilibrium. Using something under the bridge to keep the bridge level (I use a big pencil eraser) until you're within the ballpark of the desired tuning helps.

Once the eraser falls out from the gap under the bridge, I adjust the spring claw until I'm at the desired tuning.

5) I used a Schaller instead of an OFR because a Schaller bridge is smaller front to back than an OFR and allows more room to intonate the strings for very low tunings. In terms of quality, it is the same as an OFR. What gives the Schaller an edge over the OFR is the removable knife edges that the OFR lacks.

6) Most of the time when I intonate I move the saddles all the way back, bring the strings to pitch, and then loosen the saddle screw very slowly until string tension pulls the saddle forward slightly. I tighten the saddle screw down, retune, recheck the intonation, and keep going this way until I am at the correct pitch. It is much easier this way than trying to move a string saddle back while under tension.

Even on a 25.5" guitar, though, there isn't quite enough room to intonate perfectly in Bb standard. I would consider this only a moderately low tuning by today's standards, but even then I have the saddles moved all the way back to the edge of the baseplate and they could still be moved back a bit for a bit better intonation.

My guess is from here better intonation means increasing scale length and changing frets like with the True Temperament tuning system found on high end Caparison guitars.
 
You can avoid tightening the retainer if you lightly clamp the pads on the nut before tuning to pitch so that it keeps the strings in the bottom of the slot but allows for movement when turning the tuning peg. That way the strings wont go sharp when you tighten the pads properly because they are already forced to the bottom of the slots. Useful trick if you dont have a retainer.
 
Thanks nexion218 . I thought a lighter clamp pressure would mean the strings would break at the tuning pegs when the bar is pulled sharp. This will be really useful to me as most of my import Jacksons lack a string retainer and have a pretty shallow headstock pitch from the nut.
 
Edit: just realized you meant light pressure while tuning but not the final lockdown. Still, most of my guitars lack string retainers.
 
Is that the nut's fault? NO. An experienced and competent luthier will set up the nut to prevent binding - locking tuners or locking nuts withstanding. It's one of my specialties.

Why are you so confrontational? Doesn’t it get tiring being so angry and grumpy about everything?

Floyd style locknuts > goofy kahler string locks every time.

EVERY. TIME.
 
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Why are you so confrontational? Doesn’t it get tiring being so angry and grumpy about everything?

Floyd style locknuts > goofy kahler string locks every time.

EVERY. TIME.

Because so many people are wrong (like you), or don't think (also you).

Floyd locking nuts are diecast, and string heights cannot be adjusted individually. You can get them close by juggling shims under the nut, but due to the lack of precision in the diecasting process, one or two strings will be higher or lower than they should be. You can't grind the top of the nut because then the locking clamp won't fit properly and the string will slip. They are a poor design and poorly manufactured.

Same at the bridge end - the saddles are never the correct height from string to string, and grinding the bottom of the saddle to set the height causes other problems. I've been working on them since they were invented, taken them apart and measured them, and they are a big disappointment. They do not measure correctly. If any Floyd producer could get their manufacturing tolerances in order, it would be a big improvement. Ibanez did the best, making each saddle adjustable for height.

Yes - the popularity of the Floyds can be laid at Edward Van Halen's feet. There is no argument on that. However, in several interviews during the 80's Edward complained about them. His usual quote was, "I hate them, and I don't..." Let's not forget that the first 3 Van Halen albums were made BEFORE Floyd Rose units had been marketed. He got by with a meticulous setup on a Fender vibrato unit and a properly cut and lubricated brass nut, with no locking tuners.
 
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Locking tuners to me are a lot like Fender or Wilkinson style vibratos--they're for players who want some mild use of the whammy bar on chords but aren't going to do extreme pulls or make warble effects by slapping the bar. Or they're for players who prefer a fixed bridge but don't want the guitar to come out of tune during transport
.

I replaced the 6 screw trem on my Dean V with a Willinson 2-post and with the included Schaller locking tuners and the properly cut bone nut, I can go as nuts as I can on a Floyd and it never goes out of tune. I slightly recessed it, it doesn’t have quite the same upward range as a Floyd but it’s enough for that particular guitar. With 2 springs it stutters just fine and does full dive-bombs no problem.

I originally planned to put a Floyd in it but being a 3/4 body size, there just wasn’t enough wood for that much routing but the Wilko is the next best thing. I ended up putting the OFR in my Washburn Bantam (again, replacing the 6 screw strat style trem) and it’s a real shred-stick now. It’s what I reach for when I need the higher output and sustain of a bridge bucker lead tone and more whammy action my MIA strat isn’t right for, as comfy as it is.

It was the second guitar I ever owned, wasn’t too expensive )though it’s got decent wood and finish) but with the upgrades (SD Custom in the bridge and the stock singles have a beautiful jazzy tone that must be a fluke so I don’t want to change them) it hangs with my guitars on the pricier end of the spectrum. Even has Seymour’s signature I got from the ‘06 User Group Day on the back, lacquered over so it never comes off.

Here’s the Washburn and Dean respectively.


5C6359AA-2369-402D-933F-1C90749D6AC8.jpg​​​​​​​
 
3) A common issue on Floyds--the strings going sharp after locking the nut down--can be fixed by tightening the string retainer on the headstock if you have one. I have a video from Frudua to thank for this: https://youtu.be/JBF3LCQk7zg?t=206

Until now I considered a string retainer to be mostly decorative or there for peace of mind if a string broke above the nut.

I thought tightening the retainer would be a bad thing by putting additional stress on the strings between the nut and headstock. But, it helped the guitar stay in tune the more the retainer was screwed down into the wood. With the retainer screwed in further, the strings stopped going sharp whenever I clamped the locking nut down.

Very interesting - had never heard of that trick.

I've got my old pre-finetuner Floyd sitting around and have been thinking about calling back into service.
It had that problem and usually required loosening and retightening several times on certain strings.
Eventually I got a feel for about how far off each string needed to be before screwing down the pads.

It it was still sort of a pain though. So when Floyd came out with his finetuner one I replaced it right away.
But nowadays some are saying the original non-finetuner version sustains better and sounds fuller.
Thinking about trying mine with a regular neck, no locking nut. I hardly ever divebomb anymore.

The real trick will be finding a body routed for Floyds, but without the recess to accommodate the long tail.
I'm told Warmoth offers that as an option.

Anyway, my thanks to you and Frudua for sharing the vid.
 
I've always used the string retainer to ensure string contact with the rear of the nut so that when you lock it doesn't press the string sharp,,,,,,but if you don't have a retainer and the headstock does not have enough angle you can just tune the problem string/s a bit flat so that when locking it presses into pitch, or at least very close.

The old Carvin 80's reverse pointed headstocks have that problem fairly bad on the 6th string, but I simply tune just over a quarter-step flat before locking and it presses right into almost perfect pitch, and then you still can fine-tune after locking.
 
I've always used the string retainer to ensure string contact with the rear of the nut so that when you lock it doesn't press the string sharp,,,,,,but if you don't have a retainer and the headstock does not have enough angle you can just tune the problem string/s a bit flat so that when locking it presses into pitch, or at least very close.

That's what I used to do with the original Floyd. Problem was, all strings didn't need exactly the same amount of flatness.
I got better at estimating it over time. Was still glad when finetuners became available though.
 
The first Floyd I ever installed for a client was an early 80's one with no fine tuners. The locking nut was such a POS that when you locked each piece, it would sharpen one string and flatten the other. You had to guess to get the darn thing in tune.
 
The first Floyd I ever installed for a client was an early 80's one with no fine tuners. The locking nut was such a POS that when you locked each piece, it would sharpen one string and flatten the other. You had to guess to get the darn thing in tune.

Yah - not only do they need different amounts of offset, but wound strings behave differently from plain ones.
 
This was another reason I went with the cam (23xx?) Kahlers in the 80's. They had fine tuners on day one.

The design and machining (no diecasting) of Kahlers is top notch. They do work and feel differently than a Floyd, which is to be expected.
 
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