Locking nut quality and tuning stability

[El Dunco]

The one experience I’ve had with Kahler, if you did a bend, it would return sharp and you had to depress the bar to make it return to pitch. A friend showed me a way around it. But it’s effort. You have to bend the ball end of the string at a 45deg and solder them! He ended up doing some mod on the saddles to try and overcome it too. I’m used to Floyd. I think you kind of start with one or the other and it’s awkward to change. While I didn’t do any rigorous scientific testing, the Kahler seemed to have way less sustain than my similar guitar with a floyd.

 

[formula73]

Because so many people are wrong (like you), or don't think (also you).

Floyd locking nuts are diecast, and string heights cannot be adjusted individually. You can get them close by juggling shims under the nut, but due to the lack of precision in the diecasting process, one or two strings will be higher or lower than they should be. You can't grind the top of the nut because then the locking clamp won't fit properly and the string will slip. They are a poor design and poorly manufactured.

Same at the bridge end - the saddles are never the correct height from string to string, and grinding the bottom of the saddle to set the height causes other problems. I've been working on them since they were invented, taken them apart and measured them, and they are a big disappointment. They do not measure correctly. If any Floyd producer could get their manufacturing tolerances in order, it would be a big improvement. Ibanez did the best, making each saddle adjustable for height.

Yes - the popularity of the Floyds can be laid at Edward Van Halen's feet. There is no argument on that. However, in several interviews during the 80's Edward complained about them. His usual quote was, "I hate them, and I don't..." Let's not forget that the first 3 Van Halen albums were made BEFORE Floyd Rose units had been marketed. He got by with a meticulous setup on a Fender vibrato unit and a properly cut and lubricated brass nut, with no locking tuners.

Idgaf about evh. Never did. I also dgaf about how old you are, how long you’ve been playing, how well you can cut a nut, or how long you’ve been butchering guitars. I remember that V. Pure hack job.

My prior statement stands: Floyd>Kahler. 24/7.

 

[JamesPaul]

The one experience I’ve had with Kahler, if you did a bend, it would return sharp and you had to depress the bar to make it return to pitch. A friend showed me a way around it. But it’s effort. You have to bend the ball end of the string at a 45deg and solder them! He ended up doing some mod on the saddles to try and overcome it too. I’m used to Floyd. I think you kind of start with one or the other and it’s awkward to change. While I didn’t do any rigorous scientific testing, the Kahler seemed to have way less sustain than my similar guitar with a floyd.

One does need to pre-bend the strings for best results. However both Ernie Ball and GHS make strings that have an extra "wrap" around the strings at the ball end. I never have an issue with them going out of tune. Indeed, soldering was a common solution if you wanted to use your favorite brand of strings, which may not have had the extra "wrap".

I just picked up my first Floyd in 2020. It does a much better cricket/flutter, but it is a cast iron bit** to tune when compared to my Kahlers. It is like I can hammer on my Kahlers, but I have to be super gentle with my Floyd. They are both different, kind of like....well, you know where I was going....

 

[El Dunco]

One does need to pre-bend the strings for best results. However both Ernie Ball and GHS make strings that have an extra "wrap" around the strings at the ball end. I never have an issue with them going out of tune. Indeed, soldering was a common solution if you wanted to use your favorite brand of strings, which may not have had the extra "wrap".

I just picked up my first Floyd in 2020. It does a much better cricket/flutter, but it is a cast iron bit** to tune when compared to my Kahlers. It is like I can hammer on my Kahlers, but I have to be super gentle with my Floyd. They are both different, kind of like....well, you know where I was going....

Is it an OFR? Most of the licensed ones I’ve tried are crap. They creak when you wiggle them. The real thing is smooth and dead silent no matter how aggressive you are with it. I tend to stay in standard 9-42 so I need no more than 2 springs. Fluttering doesn’t sound as good and it also doesn’t feel as nice to use with any more than 2.

The one exception is whatever Floyd came with my 7 string. It’s perfectly stable enough, does the job. Doesn’t quite have that nice touch the 6 has but I don’t expect it to as it has an extra string to contend with.

One thing that always bothered me starting out is the way they pull all your other strings flat when you bend (unison bends for example) and you have to rest your hand on the bridge and push it back to compensate, it’s not a huge deal but I go back and forth between fixed and trem.

You can totally hear even on major label studio records with guitarists known for using Floyds, their palm mutes go a little sharp if they’re particularly heavy handed on the bridge.

 

[JamesPaul]

Is it an OFR? Most of the licensed ones I’ve tried are crap. They creak when you wiggle them. The real thing is smooth and dead silent no matter how aggressive you are with it. I tend to stay in standard 9-42 so I need no more than 2 springs. Fluttering doesn’t sound as good and it also doesn’t feel as nice to use with any more than 2.

The one exception is whatever Floyd came with my 7 string. It’s perfectly stable enough, does the job. Doesn’t quite have that nice touch the 6 has but I don’t expect it to as it has an extra string to contend with.

One thing that always bothered me starting out is the way they pull all your other strings flat when you bend (unison bends for example) and you have to rest your hand on the bridge and push it back to compensate, it’s not a huge deal but I go back and forth between fixed and trem.

You can totally hear even on major label studio records with guitarists known for using Floyds, their palm mutes go a little sharp if they’re particularly heavy handed on the bridge.

My Floyd is whatever came on the 2020 Fender RI HM Strat. Tuning-wise, has been as stable as my Kahlers, once I get it tuned up. Those struglles are here. Post #9, as it does not appear to be taking me there when I check the link.

https://forum.seymourduncan.com/for...gift-cards-certificates?p=5711298#post5711298

Here are a couple pics of my Kahlers. You will have to zoom in, but these are the GHS Tremelo Boomers. They use a nylon extra wrap, where the EB RPS used a metallic (bronze?) wrap.

https://forum.seymourduncan.com/for...2-fender-namm-2020-peek?p=5701173#post5701173

 

[El Dunco]

My Floyd is whatever came on the 2020 Fender RI HM Strat. Tuning-wise, has been as stable as my Kahlers, once I get it tuned up. Those struglles are here. Post #9, as it does not appear to be taking me there when I check the link.

https://forum.seymourduncan.com/foru...98#post5711298

Here are a couple pics of my Kahlers. You will have to zoom in, but these are the GHS Tremelo Boomers. They use a nylon extra wrap, where the EB RPS used a metallic (bronze?) wrap.

https://forum.seymourduncan.com/foru...73#post5701173

I can’t see exactly what it is, doesn’t seem to have the rounded edges of an Original but I don’t imagine it would be inferior quality on that kind of instrument. There’s so many kinds… FR Special (whatever that means) LoPro etc. I just steer clear of the licensed ones. They cheap out on the metal and the knife edges go bad real quick if they aren’t all ready from factory.

I either replace my strings one at a time. If I can’t, it’s a matter of tuning the strings sharper on one side on going back forth, if I can’t find a spoon haha.

 

[El Dunco]

Well I’ll be d@mned….

 

[ICTGoober]

Okay, kinda clever. I don't have a Floyd equipped axe... I have a floating Wilkinson. I wonder if you can still do that little cricket thing with the trem bar?

 

[El Dunco]

Okay, kinda clever. I don't have a Floyd equipped axe... I have a floating Wilkinson. I wonder if you can still do that little cricket thing with the trem bar?

I can with my 2 point wilki

 

[ICTGoober]

With the Tremmory installed?

 

[El Dunco]

With the Tremmory installed?

Nah, I only just found out about them. Might have to try it out though.

 

[Inflames626]

Glad to see my thread took off and that it hopefully helped some people. In my experience:

1) Stick with an OFR or Schaller. Regular Schaller trems are slightly smaller than OFRs and are better for intonating low tunings on guitars with small routes. Lockmeisters are identical in size to OFRs.

If you're putting the hardware on import guitars like I tend to do, you'll only use the bridge since most of your parts will be metric and OFRs and Schallers (to my knowledge) are imperial.

2) FR and Schaller offer different finishes to each other. Schaller doesn't offer a satin chrome bridge. FR does. This is what made my decision for me. It really is that close in terms of quality.

3) FR1000s are equivalent to OFRs in quality. They are OEM on import guitars only.

4) Schallers have the benefit of removable knife edges on the baseplate. When they wear out, just switch them instead of the whole baseplate.

5) I've tried the compensation prior to locking down the nut trick and was always a little off. I appreciate the retainers now.

6) I have all the confusion FR newbs do but with Ibanez Edge bridges and their spinoffs. Makes me afraid to get into Ibby-World since they quoted me a $300 price for an Ibanez Edge bridge straight from the factory. Gotohs are patterned after them I think but don't fit exactly.

So I've always wanted to try more Ibbys but didn't want to pay the premium of upgrading one of their cheaper guitars. I would appreciate any insight on Edges although I think Jemsite already did a compatibility chart.

7) Herman Li of Dragon Force did an in depth video on Floyd tuning. Even his high end stuff doesn't stay in perfectly. Hope this helps: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyzTJ-R89KI&t=55s

In my experience most people struggle with FR tuning because of a bad bridge or a bad setup.

You should go:
1) Claw
2) Truss rod (doesn't need to be changed often and will not break as easily as people say)
3) Action
4) String length
5) Recheck each as needed

Having the claw at equilibrium as you work will fix a lot of problems.

My former teacher John Carruthers, who also helped develop early EMGs, taught guitar maintenance at Musician's Institute/GIT. He has some helpful videos here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHHepmTX3So

 

[GuitarStv]

FWIW, I've found that higher spring tension and heavier strings also seem to make Floyd tuning more stable. I have my Floyded guitars on a 25.5 inch scale running four or five springs in the back with 10-52 strings and they're pretty stable. When I bought my Charvel it was strung up with .08s and they were really easy to knock out, super twitchy when tuning. I also ran a Tremel-no for a while - it seemed to negatively impact the ability of the bridge to come back to zero when set in free floating mode.

 

[Inflames626]

My string gauge depends on tuning. E to D = 10 gauge, Db - C = 11, B and below 12. I also leave my ball ends in the capstans as a string lock on the tuning pegs. I don't have many 24.75" guitars but they will tend to get thicker strings and higher tunings to compensate for scale length.

One downside of going to an OFR/Schaller over a cheaper bridge is heavier feel. My licensed Jackson JT580LPs (rebranded Takeuchi TRS) weren't that stable in tuning, but they felt light and did the job for occasional use of the bar.

Going to higher quality, heavier metals with larger sustain blocks made my whammy bar feel stiff until I got used to it. This isn't something I like considering I like my Floyds to feel as much like a Kahler as possible in terms of smoothness.

I use three springs in an arrow shape and do okay. They are whatever comes from the factory or an import spring if I lose one. I think more springs are needed for players who want more tuning stability and/or something that feels close to a fixed bridge tune-o-matic but only occasionally uses the bar. An FR with 4-5 springs would probably be more stable than a Fender-style trem.

I would probably prefer a block of wood to a device if I wanted to fix a bridge.

As a parting thought, I am surprised the design of cheaper Floyd bridges (ball ends sliding through a tube behind the saddles) did not catch on since strings are usually reinforced at the balls and this would seem to put less pressure on the string than clamping it with the saddle block. It's the same logic as a tune-o-matic but only on a fixed bridge.

I have an Indian made Jackson Dinky using this type of Floyd Rose and I admit I wish it were more common, but with better quality metals of course.

At the very least it seems the saddles could be hollow, the string ball fed in somehow, and then the string pulled through so it is held in like an acoustic bridge pin holds the string. Anything approximating a saddle block would hold the ball in like a bridge pin instead of pinching the string, removing a pressure point on the string.

 

[nexion218]

Nah, I only just found out about them. Might have to try it out though.

The Tremmory is EXTREMELY expensive for what it is. But will probably work fine. I have gadget that works the same made by a guy who claims that the whole thing was his invention and is now in legal dispute with the Tremmory guys. Either way, it does work. I can bend a m3, maybe even M3 without the other strings going outta whack. Didn't notice any warble when going heavy handed, but of course the flutters are gone. I've recently found a place selling the ESP arming adjuster. Ordered a pair, real curious about it. Similar principle (a spring pushing on the block to counter any force pulling the bridge sharp) but it's tension is variable with a thumbwheel, supposedly to the point of hardtailing the bridge. Much like the old Ibanez backstops.

 

[nexion218]

Okay, kinda clever. I don't have a Floyd equipped axe... I have a floating Wilkinson. I wonder if you can still do that little cricket thing with the trem bar?

If by "cricket thing" you mean flutters, then no. That's the tradeoff with these gadgets

 

[JamesPaul]

I can’t see exactly what it is, doesn’t seem to have the rounded edges of an Original but I don’t imagine it would be inferior quality on that kind of instrument. There’s so many kinds… FR Special (whatever that means) LoPro etc. I just steer clear of the licensed ones. They cheap out on the metal and the knife edges go bad real quick if they aren’t all ready from factory.

I either replace my strings one at a time. If I can’t, it’s a matter of tuning the strings sharper on one side on going back forth, if I can’t find a spoon haha.

It does appear to be a Floyd Rose Special on my LE HM Strat (do not know why I called it a RI earlier, other than it is a reissue.)

My Floyd seems solid, once it is tuned up, just super sensitive. I tend to push it sharp just trying to tune it using the fine tuners. The Floyd requires a gentle touch, but other than a better cricket/flutter, I still do not see what it offers over my cam Kahlers.

Given a little adaptation on my part, my Floyd seems fine.

 

[El Dunco]

It does appear to be a Floyd Rose Special on my LE HM Strat (do not know why I called it a RI earlier, other than it is a reissue.)

My Floyd seems solid, once it is tuned up, just super sensitive. I tend to push it sharp just trying to tune it using the fine tuners. The Floyd requires a gentle touch, but other than a better cricket/flutter, I still do not see what it offers over my cam Kahlers.

Given a little adaptation on my part, my Floyd seems fine.

Don’t you just love non-indicative naming conventions?

 

[Inflames626]

An update on this:
I have found a situation where the import locking nut did affect tuning stability.

I was building out a '94 BC Rich NJ Mockingbird (the Custom 5/Custom experiment I was working on in another thread). I could not get it to stay in tune even with a Schaller FR.

Extreme dive bombs and pull ups would pull the strings out by as much as 1/2 step even though I had set the guitar up correctly (claw, truss rod, action, string length).

The Schaller and the import nuts had worked fine on my Jacksons and other guitars as far as tuning stability, but the BC Rich was becoming a real pain.

I swapped out the import nut with a new Floyd Rose R8 nut (the shallower size usually used on import guitars) and the tuning stability problems went away. FR nuts will work with Schaller bridges.

The import nut did have some grooving on the bottom, so my guess is this played a part.

So an import nut CAN affect tuning stability if the import nut is in bad shape. If you are having tuning stability issues and have checked everything, try replacing the nut.

 

[Seashore]

Had to block off my Floyd Pro after being unable to resolve tuning stability problems caused by a dull knife edge. Now it's dive-only but it works and sounds great. I miss being able to pull up but having a guitar that comes back in tune after a dive (and being able to rest my heavy picking hand) is worth the tradeoff. I tried a Rockinger Black Box, but even the little bit of give in the piston was enough to let the guitar get stuck in a slightly sharp position. Frustrating stuff. I never liked playing on the OEM 1000 series the guitar came with, but it didn't have any problem coming back up to tune.

​​​​Loved the feel of the Kahler on an old Gibson project guitar I had, but I never replaced the lock-behind-the-nut system with something better - rolling nut or a Floyd nut, maybe... The strings always got pinched in that little gap and threw me slightly out of whack. That guitar had many other problems though.

I remain a Tune-O-Matic person at the core of my being.
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