Low Watt Tube Amps vs High Watt?

[LooseCannon]

What is the adventage of higher watt amps if you can't crank them anyway without an attenuator? Is it possible to get the tone of 100 watt marshalls with a 10 watt tube amp designed to give the same tone? I know that more watts gives you more headroom, but what else?

 

[aleclee]

Re: Low Watt Tube Amps vs High Watt?

I know that more watts gives you more headroom, but what else?

For many that's enough. If excellent cleans are important to you, you won't get them at meaningful volume with a low power amp.

 

[LooseCannon]

Re: Low Watt Tube Amps vs High Watt?

And what about the gain issue?

 

[TwilightOdyssey]

Re: Low Watt Tube Amps vs High Watt?

This subject has been covered to death, and always ends in civil war. How many watts is a touchy subject around here!

 

[The Golden Boy]

Re: Low Watt Tube Amps vs High Watt?

A lot of people say the 100w Marshalls have more bottom end thump to them than the 50w. I honestly don't notice the difference as a 100/50w thing, more of a difference between amps. My understanding is that the 100w and 50w were originally seperate designs.

 

[aleclee]

Re: Low Watt Tube Amps vs High Watt?

And what about the gain issue?

I think a higher powered amp with a good master volume is more useful than a low power amp. Even a 10W amp is gonna be mighty loud (well over 100dB) before the power tubes start clipping.

That's a big reason why my 50W Rivera and my 50W Two Rock get a lot more use than my 10W Peters. They get great OD at reasonable volumes and have enough oomph to get the tones I want at band volumes (though my band isn't really that loud).

Also keep in mind that a lot of cranked amp tone is in the speakers as well as the amp. I got to learn just how true that is when I owned a 1W tube amp. When I got that head, I had to pick the speaker cabinet very carefully to get something that actually sounded like a cranked amp.

 

[Mike M.]

Re: Low Watt Tube Amps vs High Watt?

I have a small setup that I use at home on occasion and for what it is I can actually get some decent tones happening. I got a Carvin Vintage 16 amp that I use as a base. For the clean thing I plug my guitar into a Line6 AM4 amp modeler and use it on the Tweed 4x10 setting. This is one of the few settings that actually sounds pretty good, and I can actually get a surprising amount of clean headroom from it. Then for distorted stuff I use my Tonebone Hot British pedal. Great, rocking tone without going deaf. Yeah, it's a mish-mosh but again, it actually sounds pretty decent for what it is.

 

[some_dude]

Re: Low Watt Tube Amps vs High Watt?

One thing I've noticed over the course of many of these debates is that most people who prefer low watt amps tend to have low gain amps, and thus rely alot on driving the power tubes for their crunch.

People who tend to have higher wattage amps (50w+) tend to have medium to high amounts of preamp gain, and thus need enough headroom to keep their power tubes from mushing up at gig volumes when being fed that hot of signal.

Despite what some people like to say, most mid to high gain master volume heads don't sound that great with the MV dimed.....

.....particularily when your talking a modern, machine gun style of metal rhythm playing, where it pays to have the power section stay as tight as possible.

 

[Gearjoneser]

Re: Low Watt Tube Amps vs High Watt?

All the above, plus a modeling amp. Why not? You only live once!

Seriously, it all comes down to what sound you want, and what you realistically need. I need a 100W channel switching amp to cover the tones I like to use in the music I write, but only when playing with a full band. I need a low wattage tube amp because I play a lot of blues with a strat, and need the power tube breakup. My neighbors tell me I need a modeling amp, so I don't blow them into sh!tdust, so I use one of those at night, when practicing. ROFL

 

[twoheadedboy]

Re: Low Watt Tube Amps vs High Watt?

My needs are very simple and easy. I never use a squeaky clean sound or a super tight high gain sound, so a JTM 45 style amp with a slightly hotrodded preamp and master volume works very well for me. I use 30 watt speakers and run the master volume at about 9'clock for most applications. I get a very nice, classic tubey, organic breakup that I can dial back with my guitar for a cleaner sound or push harder with an OD or Fuzz. I don't use a lot of volume, but I think my amp has just the right amount of openness and tightness to get the job done.

Here's a tip (that I learned from the guy who built my amp) for amps like mine: If you don't use a lot of volume, choose your rectifier tube carefully. If you use a really efficient tube or copper cap type replacement, you will get a tighter sound that fizzes and buzzes at low volumes, but sounds better with the amp at high volumes. If you use a less efficient (I have a 5U4 in my amp, I believe) rectifier tube, you get a looser sound that has more sag and compression at lower volumes. This is very important for getting an organic sound at low volumes. The tradeoff is that your amp will be looser at higher volumes, with spongier bass and softer attack. That can be great for big juicy leads, though.

 

[LooseCannon]

Re: Low Watt Tube Amps vs High Watt?

Check out these two clips of the Fuchs Lucky 7, 7 watt amp:
http://www.fuchsaudiotechnology.com/eddieluckyseven2.wmv
http://www.fuchsaudiotechnology.com/eddieluckyseven3.wmv

Sounds great right? So what would a 50 watt amp give me that the 7 watt won't (again, except for headroom)?

 

[aleclee]

Re: Low Watt Tube Amps vs High Watt?

You sound like you're bound and determined to go through with this.

I've owned 1W and 10W tube amps and have a pretty good idea of what works based on my requirements. I won't waste anymore electrons trying to explain the pros and cons 'cause I don't think you really want to hear them.

Buy the amp and see if it works. That's the only way you'll really understand how and if it meets your needs. It might be an expensive learning experience but sometimes that's the only way some people learn.

P.S. Not that you're likely to accept this advice either but deciding to buy an amp based on clips is a really bad idea, too.

 

[HamerPlyr]

Re: Low Watt Tube Amps vs High Watt?

Keep it simple. How will you use the amp? If you're a bedroom player, the Fuchs sounds perfect. If you play out and ever need to fill a medium-sized club without the benefit of mic'ing the amp, it's probably not enough.

I agree with Alec that buying an amp based on clips is a huge leap of faith.

 

[LooseCannon]

Re: Low Watt Tube Amps vs High Watt?

I'm not going to buy that amp, I was just using the clips as an example. I'm not ignoring what you had to say, I just want to know what makes the big difference in tone... Bigger trensformers? More power tubes? So what theoreticly won't have the tone of a 100 watt amp?

 

[That90'sGuy]

Re: Low Watt Tube Amps vs High Watt?

As a musician that's playing live now, I can see both sides of the spectrum much more clearly. I used to be an avid "less watts is more tone" kinda guy, but I realize that live you're talking a whole 'nuther world.

Honestly, there is no way I would gig with anything less than 30w. With my Vox style amps, I do get a very light breakup on the cleans at the point where I can be heard over a loud drummer. Boost pedals help get my signal loud enough so that my solos can be heard loud and clear. It takes a little bit of work, but I like the amount of tube saturation I get at that point. I play medium gain rock, so it's not all light crunch.

For at home practicing, I can get pretty decent tones at (what I consider) reasonable volumes. I've owned higher wattage amps and they definitely don't work for home, I've learned that the hard way

If you're playing live and you don't want to worry about micing amps in a medium to large sized gig, a 50w amp really isn't a bad idea. Higher wattage amps typically have more punch and a bigger frequency, but in order to get some real drive, you've really gotta crank them (and in some places, that's just not reasonable). Higher wattage amps will give you more headroom (which is great for cleans), but that means it will take a lot more to really get that power tube saturation. There are some amps that don't like to be broken up too much like Mesas, and the preamp gain typically works fine for that kind of sound, so it's only the fans of power tube saturation that will be hurt by buying a high wattage amp in a playing environment other than a medium to large club. Lower wattage amps have to be miced for larger venues and for some higher wattage fans, they don't trust their sound in the hands of sound guys at the venues, so they prefer to go unmiced.

All in all, it's a tradeoff. In a perfect world, I would have amps with 100w clean power and 30w for an overdrive channel (or some sort of power scaling technology for just the overdrive channel).

 

[greendy123]

Re: Low Watt Tube Amps vs High Watt?

Do you guys know if it's good to combine high to medium pre-amp gain and add power tube distortion on top of that in low watt tube amps or is it better to just get high watt amp with the pre-amp gain? I know that power tube distortion really goes best with lower gain stuff.

 

[some_dude]

Re: Low Watt Tube Amps vs High Watt?

Do you guys know if it's good to combine high to medium pre-amp gain and add power tube distortion on top of that in low watt tube amps or is it better to just get high watt amp with the pre-amp gain? I know that power tube distortion really goes best with lower gain stuff.

It really depends on the type of amp and the tastes of the player.

I have one high gain head (Rectifier) that sounds like thin, buzzy ass with no power tube saturation, but it also sounds like overcompressed ass if the power amp's pushed too hard....you kind have to find the sweet spot where the power tubes fill out and round off the preamp's gain without getting too compressed.

This Laney Iommi head (also high gain) I have on the other hand sounds killer with both it's preamp and power section being pushed. I wouldn't say it sounds good with the master volume dimed, but it does sound good with both the preamp and power amp running quite hot.

and now for the personal taste thing....

I've run my Recto with the preamp perfectly clean, and the master volume at or nearly dimed so that all the overdrive/distortion is coming from the power tubes, and it sounds killer....provided you like that sound (it sounds similar to a dimed Fender).


So basically, you need to find the balance between how much pre-gain you want and how hard you push the power tubes.....which is usually called finding the sweet spot, and I feel that's different for every type of amp and player.

 

[Sune]

Re: Low Watt Tube Amps vs High Watt?

Hey screamindaisy, talking 'bout your Iommi, can you tell me which speakers you think would work well with it.. Do you think a pair of V30's would work out nicely?

 

[some_dude]

Re: Low Watt Tube Amps vs High Watt?

Hey screamindaisy, talking 'bout your Iommi, can you tell me which speakers you think would work well with it.. Do you think a pair of V30's would work out nicely?

Depends on your tastes. I'm using a cab loaded with V30s and I like it. I think Iommi's currently using G12H, so I assume he likes them. If possible I'd try a few different cabs and see if you like them.

 

[JeffB]

Re: Low Watt Tube Amps vs High Watt?

Don't have much to say here other than choose your wattage for your needs as others have said. When I was younger and gigged a bit I needed the volume. Took 8 years off, started playing again and now I don't need the volume, as I just play at home 99% of the time. I have a 40 Watt Rivera Chubster and it's gotta be pushed for the best tone...but it's too loud for home use. I'd much rather have something at about 5 watts that utilizes the same tube complement, but you don't find many low wattage tube amps w/ El34s that doent cost an arm and a leg...everything is EL84 or sometimes 6v6...neither of which give me the sound I want.

I'm saving my pennies for one of these: Bumbox Lead1