METAL sounds needed in old Ibanez

DaffyJeffy

New member
So I need some advice. I want to replace the pickup on my guitar. My guitar is a Japanese 1987 Ibanez Roadstar 410. I love this guitar because it only has a single humbucker in the bridge position and a volume knob (it does have the toggle volume knob to split to a single coil - probably just do away with that as I never use it). And it plays great all over the neck, stays in tune...just a great little Japanese guitar. This guitar has a basswood body and bolt on maple neck. My amp is a Peavey vip vyper 2. I just can't get a good metal sound. If I turn my amp up, it ends up sounding nasally with no balls, too bright, no bottom. It doesn't seem to matter how much I fuss with the knobs. I play in drop d most of the time and dream of a thick, full, warm Helmet-like distortion. I love vintage thrash, but all aggressive metal (think more Slayer and less Iron Maiden). The current humbucker is askew like some were in the 80s. I don't mind modifying that so it's in a normal (parallel with bridge) position. What pickup do I upgrade to? From what I've read, sounds like a duncan distortion sh-6 would be good. Wondering if that might be too bright? Thoughts? Ideas? Suggestions?
 
Re: METAL sounds needed in old Ibanez

The Distortion is a good choice, although I think the Helmet sound is more associated with the Air Zone or Tone Zone.

Personally, I'd slap a Parallel Axis Distortion in it.
 
Re: METAL sounds needed in old Ibanez

+1
But I would keep the toggle and wire it up to switch the pickup between series and parallel wiring.

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Re: METAL sounds needed in old Ibanez

Oh, and add a Dimarzio X2N to the list of possible pickup choices. Maybe even the Alternative 8.

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Re: METAL sounds needed in old Ibanez

warm distortion sounds more like DiMarzio
 
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Re: METAL sounds needed in old Ibanez

I don't think you can go wrong with either a standard or Parallell Axis Distortion. The Distortion has been my default pickup for a long time and delivers. A close relative is the Alternative 8, which I really like these days. A Custom is another good option.

I feel that I should mention that your amp is a big part of the equation, so don't put all of your hope for tone on the pickup. Peavey makes some good stuff, but don't forget that the warmth and low end you are looking for may need to be achieved with different amplification and more than a 12 inch speaker. Page Hamilton uses Fryette tube amps.
 
Re: METAL sounds needed in old Ibanez

In my mind that Vipyr doesnt like super high output pickups. Its not a tube amp that you need to drive hard. I think you will actually get along with a medium output pickup just fine. Page Hamilton uses Dimarzio Air zone pickups which are actually nice warm mid lowish output pickups which might work for what you want.

keep in mind though the pickup is just one piece in your signal chain, its not a cure all.

If memory serves those Roadstars came with the same pickups that came in like RG550's which while not the greatest pickup they should be able to do something of a metal sound. This has me wondering if the problem is less the pickup and maybe somewhere else in your signal chain.

Just a thought but if you can demo some other guitars through your amp to get an idea of what pickups work through it before you plunk down your cash.
 
Re: METAL sounds needed in old Ibanez

Lots of food for thought. Really appreciate the advice. Honestly, what started the whole thought process is one day while playing, all the sudden my guitar started to sound like ****. I took it appart and a wire had broke free from the volume knob (so I guess I was unintentionally playing in single-coil mode?). I soldered it back and it's been fine. But the super wimpy/flimsy wiring got me thinking maybe I should just redo the electronics (after all, it's just a single pickup and knob). This, of course made me think now might be a good time to upgrade the pickup. But it's a good point that perhaps my expectations for the Vyper are too high. What's interesting is that I can get a sound I kinda like at very low volume. Once I turn the amp up it just sounds horrible. I don't know.
 
Re: METAL sounds needed in old Ibanez

Lots of food for thought. Really appreciate the advice. Honestly, what started the whole thought process is one day while playing, all the sudden my guitar started to sound like ****. I took it appart and a wire had broke free from the volume knob (so I guess I was unintentionally playing in single-coil mode?). I soldered it back and it's been fine. But the super wimpy/flimsy wiring got me thinking maybe I should just redo the electronics (after all, it's just a single pickup and knob). This, of course made me think now might be a good time to upgrade the pickup. But it's a good point that perhaps my expectations for the Vyper are too high. What's interesting is that I can get a sound I kinda like at very low volume. Once I turn the amp up it just sounds horrible. I don't know.

You may be hearing the limitations of the cab/speaker, then.
 
Re: METAL sounds needed in old Ibanez

I'll just say the Custom (SH5) is the dog's balls.

Set it far from the strings and it's still decently hot, but airy and open with plently of cut and brightness, every note has clear distinction in a distorted chord.
Set it close to the strings and it's pure balls to the wall, compressed with huge tight bass, ideal for precise riffs. Not as clean sounding but goddamn is it fun to play that way. Hetfield would be interested.

I love it.
 
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Re: METAL sounds needed in old Ibanez

I was thinking speaker as well!
I can tell you from years of experience playing really cheap and sometimes awful equipment that a pickup change CAN improve your sound even if everything else is just so-so. I can also tell you that a good amp makes a huge difference.
Step 1: play at least one or two other guitars through your amp. If they sound better to you then change your pickup.
Step 2: play your guitar through at least one or two other amps. If they sound better to you then you need another amp to get the sounds you really like.
Step 1.5: IF possible, try your own amp with a different speaker or two. If you like that sound better then get a new speaker.

Stop when you have a sound you like! (That is actually the hard part - some people just keep repeating the steps over & over in search of "perfect." There is NO perfect. Good is good, perfect is a constantly moving target that can never be reached.)
 
Re: METAL sounds needed in old Ibanez

I haven't read all the replies, so apologies if I repeat what's already been said...

Pickup: My two favorite bridge pickups are the DiMarzio Imperium and the EMG 85. Although the import version of the HFS in my PRS SE Custom 24 is really great, too. I had an Invader in it, went back to the HFS on a whim, and really love it. I can get that fat but clear "In the Meantime" tone with any of those.

Amp: Start with the 5150 or Diezel model, and try the 6/6/6/6 setting. Gain, Treble, Bass, Mids all on 6, then start tweaking, starting with cutting back the gain a bit.
 
Re: METAL sounds needed in old Ibanez

David Locher's advice on narrowing down where to start is sound.

On pickups, if you want a gonzo metal pickup, it's hard to do better than the PATB-2 Parallel Axis Distortion. It's hot, compressed, but weirdly touch sensitive. Dynamics show up more as alterations of tone than volume. Harmonics just scream out, and ridiculous sustain. A TB-6 Distortion isn't quite as hot or compressed, but has a harsher bite. Black Winter is a more neutral pickup, less harsh and far more dynamic and flexible. A TB-5 Custom is a pretty killer all-around pickup, too. Great chunky rhythm tones for rock and metal. Alternative 8 is another great punchy high gainer.

(Note I'm only recommending Trembuckers, those are the correct ones to slot if you want them to line up with your strings perfectly in a Fender or Floyd bridge, or most modern Gibsons, for that matter.)

For an outlier, a P-Rails Bridge is probably the closest Seymour Duncan to the Air Zone Page Hamilton is using now. And it's hugely more flexible with ability to split to a P-90, a rail single coil, or a parallel mode that is more like a PAF (though some compare parallel more to a Filter'Tron).

As far as pickup vs amp, the amp is the most likely culprit for the bottom dropping out as the volume goes up. If it has no guts when you turn it up, that's likely because it takes a lot more power to produce low frequencies. And the power amp and speaker just aren't up to it. If that's what is going on, you may do better rolling back the treble and presence rather than trying to boost the low frequencies. Too much gain can make things muddy, particularly as volume goes up. JB_From_Hell's advice about where to start tweaking sounds like a great place to start.

If you do decide to go after a different amp, there's no shortage of choices. Save up and search for a VHT or Fryette Pitbull [Page Hamilton used a VHT Pitbull Ultralead, I'm not sure which Fryette is closest to that, one problem is neither company makes them anymore...]. Or get a modeller and search for an amp model that approximates it--Which would be easier if anyone modelled the Pitbull. Sad that the amp disappeared, it was a beast. Megadeth got some of their nastiest thrash tones when Mustaine was using VHT amps. He didn't like it for other riffing or lead tones, and didn't want the complexity of switching amps constantly, so moved back to Marshall power amps.

There's tons of modelling options for high gainers, even if none is precisely a Pitbull. Line 6 Helix or Fractal Axe-Fx are great platforms with tons of amp models to get lost in. PRS Archon (Archetype Lead on Helix) might be a good one, for a dark but punchy huge amp. ENGLs, Mesa Mk IIC++, Mesa Mk IV, Soldano SLO, Recto, 5150, and on Line 6 Badonk and Doom.

One problem of modellers is their quality of sound is limited by your playback setup. A great modeller into a crappy monitor or bad headphones wont have any more chance of sounding good than a great tube amp into an ill-matched guitar cab.

There are plenty of cheap tube heads, but I've never been happy with them at practice volumes, and don't like to recommend something where you need an attenuator. Some people just prefer a tube rig, even with the bulk, maintenance and volume hassles.

Cheapest way to figure out what you like is to try everything you can at local stores, if that's an option. Else, it's off to youtube and trying to guess how much of what the amp sounds like in the video is the guitar, stompbox, microphone, post-processing, as opposed to the amp and speakers/cabinet...
 
Re: METAL sounds needed in old Ibanez

In my mind that Vipyr doesnt like super high output pickups. Its not a tube amp that you need to drive hard.
When I used to have a Vypyr, the EMG 85 I had in my guitar back then sounded fine, IMO.


Obviously not what the OP wants out of his Vypyr, but I'm just saying the Vypyr handles hot pickups just fine.
 
Re: METAL sounds needed in old Ibanez

are pickups even that big of a deal running a little modeling amp and playing thrash?
 
Re: METAL sounds needed in old Ibanez

But it's a good point that perhaps my expectations for the Vyper are too high. What's interesting is that I can get a sound I kinda like at very low volume. Once I turn the amp up it just sounds horrible. I don't know.

I'm not saying that you can't or aren't getting some good sounds out of your current guitar, pickup and amp. But what you are describing is to me the classic solid state amp problem. They are pretty good at low volumes, but when you turn them up, the sound doesn't get better - and often gets worse. Tube amps are generally the opposite.
 
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