TwilightOdyssey
Darkness on the edge of Tone
Has anyone here (I'm thinking Moose) had any experience recording a drum kit using a Middle-Side approach for the overheads?
Middle-Side recording for drums?!?
- Thread starter TwilightOdyssey
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TwilightOdyssey
Darkness on the edge of Tone
Re: Middle-Side recording for drums?!?
I just tried experimenting with this technique on a single acoustic guitar, moving left and right, then center. While it creates a very lush image, it's not a good as discrete left and right mics, I think.
I just tried experimenting with this technique on a single acoustic guitar, moving left and right, then center. While it creates a very lush image, it's not a good as discrete left and right mics, I think.
Virtual Kevorkian
New member
Re: Middle-Side recording for drums?!?
Do you mean for rooms, or to replace the overheads? Or instead of close mics? I can't imagine it working for anything other than rooms, just not wide or distinctly L/R enough.
Then again, I don't like X/Y patterns on OH for the same reason.
Do you mean for rooms, or to replace the overheads? Or instead of close mics? I can't imagine it working for anything other than rooms, just not wide or distinctly L/R enough.
Then again, I don't like X/Y patterns on OH for the same reason.
TwilightOdyssey
Darkness on the edge of Tone
Re: Middle-Side recording for drums?!?
XY yields a fine stereo image when you learn to exploit it properly.
XY yields a fine stereo image when you learn to exploit it properly.
J Moose
New member
Re: Middle-Side recording for drums?!?
And what gives 'ya that idea?!
ha!
Got a few minutes here for a quick dissertation while noshing dinner... more like lunch... anyway...
Yeah. To be honest though I'm not a big fan of MS for overheads... Occasionally I'll engage in that, but often go with discrete mics.
If you check out this video you'll see a shure VP88 hanging over the drum kit... audio was recorded off a split to the house, Nuendo rig running at 88.2 with a big stack of pres behind the stage, mixed back at my shop on the soundcraft and mastered by the infamous Wizzo Grande for CD release.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ks0-RYQxod8
The VP88 is a stereo mic with built in MS decoder... lovely piece. My first choice for overheads was shot down by the house FOH engineer... his first choice, one of the mics was busted. Out came my VP88...
I tend to use MS more for room mics, guitar amps... group vocals... anything but overheads.
Usually I have a spaced pair, really like the Blue Dragonflys... TLM103s... 414's can work... KM84s or AKG 451s etc. If its a small kit I start with a modified 'recorderman' approach... maybe ORTF or a regular old spaced pair. Hell, sometimes I do a mono overhead and stereo room. Now THAT can sound huge!
Typically if the kit is really wide, and there's a large spread on the cymbals... like a Will Calhoun/Neil Pert setup with tons of toms & brass, that sort of thing I'll do a wide spaced pair on the edges and stick another mic over the center of the kit, in addition to whatever else is needed for aux hi-hats & that sort of jazz.
What else 'ya wanna know?
And what gives 'ya that idea?!
ha!
Got a few minutes here for a quick dissertation while noshing dinner... more like lunch... anyway...
Yeah. To be honest though I'm not a big fan of MS for overheads... Occasionally I'll engage in that, but often go with discrete mics.
If you check out this video you'll see a shure VP88 hanging over the drum kit... audio was recorded off a split to the house, Nuendo rig running at 88.2 with a big stack of pres behind the stage, mixed back at my shop on the soundcraft and mastered by the infamous Wizzo Grande for CD release.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ks0-RYQxod8
The VP88 is a stereo mic with built in MS decoder... lovely piece. My first choice for overheads was shot down by the house FOH engineer... his first choice, one of the mics was busted. Out came my VP88...
I tend to use MS more for room mics, guitar amps... group vocals... anything but overheads.
Usually I have a spaced pair, really like the Blue Dragonflys... TLM103s... 414's can work... KM84s or AKG 451s etc. If its a small kit I start with a modified 'recorderman' approach... maybe ORTF or a regular old spaced pair. Hell, sometimes I do a mono overhead and stereo room. Now THAT can sound huge!
Typically if the kit is really wide, and there's a large spread on the cymbals... like a Will Calhoun/Neil Pert setup with tons of toms & brass, that sort of thing I'll do a wide spaced pair on the edges and stick another mic over the center of the kit, in addition to whatever else is needed for aux hi-hats & that sort of jazz.
What else 'ya wanna know?
J Moose
New member
Re: Middle-Side recording for drums?!?
In following whatever... here's some pics of my favorite minimal miking technique. I've used this not only for recording, but also for many a live show... be it a small club gig or large stuff, even festivals where the opening band needs to cram into just a handful of channels.
Based somewhat on the Johns '3-point' technique... I find that often doesn't yield enough impact or control for modern production methods. People would ask for an open "classic" drum sound and then later ask for more snare or whatever, and there's no control. They gotta hit the drums harder. So after some experimentation I came up with this 4-point system.
What we've got is four mics... kick, snare, OH and a side address.
Kick is obvious... the side address & OH require the most attention in placement. Basically, the side is looking over the floor tom at the rack tom... and the overhead is also looking at the rack tom & somewhat at the ride cymbal. Its REALLY REALLY important to check the phase of each mic as they're added...
These pics were taken a few months ago during a session with Todd Sheaffer of Railroad Earth... moved a bunch of gear into an early 1900's log cabin, setting up a makeshift studio for a bit of tracking... pre-production/songwriting stuff.
The drum mics here were a beta 52 (kick); sennheiser 441 (sn); KM184 (oh); sennheiser 421 (side) which were run through a 4-channel mixer & then to an SSL-type compressor... right to 2-tracks. Bare bones.
And whats THIS?! Is that actually a tube Neumann on a Twin?!?
Hellz yeah kids. M147. Think outside the box...
While rooting around the photo bin... here's the rig I used for the above utoob video.
Preamps from API, Neve, Telefunken, Daking, Meek, True systems... power conditioning, battery backup... the full-on real deal. The micromixer on top of the rack was used for monitoring & creating an on-the-fly reference mix.
In following whatever... here's some pics of my favorite minimal miking technique. I've used this not only for recording, but also for many a live show... be it a small club gig or large stuff, even festivals where the opening band needs to cram into just a handful of channels.
Based somewhat on the Johns '3-point' technique... I find that often doesn't yield enough impact or control for modern production methods. People would ask for an open "classic" drum sound and then later ask for more snare or whatever, and there's no control. They gotta hit the drums harder. So after some experimentation I came up with this 4-point system.
What we've got is four mics... kick, snare, OH and a side address.
Kick is obvious... the side address & OH require the most attention in placement. Basically, the side is looking over the floor tom at the rack tom... and the overhead is also looking at the rack tom & somewhat at the ride cymbal. Its REALLY REALLY important to check the phase of each mic as they're added...
These pics were taken a few months ago during a session with Todd Sheaffer of Railroad Earth... moved a bunch of gear into an early 1900's log cabin, setting up a makeshift studio for a bit of tracking... pre-production/songwriting stuff.
The drum mics here were a beta 52 (kick); sennheiser 441 (sn); KM184 (oh); sennheiser 421 (side) which were run through a 4-channel mixer & then to an SSL-type compressor... right to 2-tracks. Bare bones.
And whats THIS?! Is that actually a tube Neumann on a Twin?!?
Hellz yeah kids. M147. Think outside the box...
While rooting around the photo bin... here's the rig I used for the above utoob video.
Preamps from API, Neve, Telefunken, Daking, Meek, True systems... power conditioning, battery backup... the full-on real deal. The micromixer on top of the rack was used for monitoring & creating an on-the-fly reference mix.
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innerdreamrecords.co
TrippyVinylologist
Re: Middle-Side recording for drums?!?
That's a cool portable rig you have! Very jealous.
That's a cool portable rig you have! Very jealous.
J Moose
New member
Re: Middle-Side recording for drums?!?
I guess it depends on how you define "portable" because that takes up a good portion of my truck.
Its not as portable as a laptop, but it also doesn't sound like a laptop rig! hehe
Seriously though, just about everything I own is in flight cases... even my big console. There's no studio... its more like instant studio anywhere in the 48 states. Well... almost instant. See the above definition!
Hey, if anyone tries that 4-point technique let me know how it works out for you. I find it to be pretty serviceable on small to average size kits... 4-5 piece. For panning, I usually have the overhead and side mics slightly apart, like 10 & 2 to give it some width. Check phase as you go in one-speaker mono.
I guess it depends on how you define "portable" because that takes up a good portion of my truck.
Its not as portable as a laptop, but it also doesn't sound like a laptop rig! hehe
Seriously though, just about everything I own is in flight cases... even my big console. There's no studio... its more like instant studio anywhere in the 48 states. Well... almost instant. See the above definition!
Hey, if anyone tries that 4-point technique let me know how it works out for you. I find it to be pretty serviceable on small to average size kits... 4-5 piece. For panning, I usually have the overhead and side mics slightly apart, like 10 & 2 to give it some width. Check phase as you go in one-speaker mono.
T
TheArchitect
Guest
Re: Middle-Side recording for drums?!?
Not really. I use it on acoustic guitars all the time.
M/S will work fin on drum OH's. Its just a question of whether or not you like the results.
Not really. I use it on acoustic guitars all the time.
M/S will work fin on drum OH's. Its just a question of whether or not you like the results.
TwilightOdyssey
Darkness on the edge of Tone
Re: Middle-Side recording for drums?!?
Sorry it took me so long to post back in this thread. I've been fighting the Black Death the last few days!
Thanks for your input, Moose. The scheme in those photos is pretty much the scheme I will be using as well.
Sorry it took me so long to post back in this thread. I've been fighting the Black Death the last few days!
Thanks for your input, Moose. The scheme in those photos is pretty much the scheme I will be using as well.
J Moose
New member
Re: Middle-Side recording for drums?!?
I gotta be honest... though that setup works pretty well at capturing a "natural" sound its far from my favorite. While it "works" the one big weakness is recording with non-isolated amps or vocals in the same room.
Going with such a minimal setup makes it impossible to punch-in or even outright replace anything else... guitars, bass... vocals etc. What you get is what you get. Like it or lump it.
It also takes a lot more time to set up then the 'traditional' multi-mic thing because it all has to be "right" before you hit record. I find that microphone choice becomes a much larger factor, not to mention placement... its near impossible to add processing or change it later without turning to dust.
I've got a project coming up where there's probably going to be something like 14 mics on the kit... basically two rigs. One big modern multi-mic, and the B sound will be a 3-point. That's the plan for now anyway...
All comes down to listening & context... one recent pre-pro thing... I started with that 4-point and ended up going to stereo overheads with a mic UNDER the floor tom for a total of 5.
I gotta be honest... though that setup works pretty well at capturing a "natural" sound its far from my favorite. While it "works" the one big weakness is recording with non-isolated amps or vocals in the same room.
Going with such a minimal setup makes it impossible to punch-in or even outright replace anything else... guitars, bass... vocals etc. What you get is what you get. Like it or lump it.
It also takes a lot more time to set up then the 'traditional' multi-mic thing because it all has to be "right" before you hit record. I find that microphone choice becomes a much larger factor, not to mention placement... its near impossible to add processing or change it later without turning to dust.
I've got a project coming up where there's probably going to be something like 14 mics on the kit... basically two rigs. One big modern multi-mic, and the B sound will be a 3-point. That's the plan for now anyway...
All comes down to listening & context... one recent pre-pro thing... I started with that 4-point and ended up going to stereo overheads with a mic UNDER the floor tom for a total of 5.
J Moose
New member
Re: Middle-Side recording for drums?!?
Well, if you want to go there it does all really start with head choice and tuning which is a deep well, and one that (usually) makes a larger difference then microphone choice & placement.
No offense intended, especially if your rig is giving desired results... but anytime it falls to a "this is how I do... these are the mics I use..." sort of thing, well... that's always a loss. Every session, every SONG is different.
So much of recording & production comes down to purely listening.
Is "it" whatever that "it" is... is it carrying it's weight? Is that sound/tone/part doing what its supposed to be doing to make the song better?
I mean, in the photos I posted above, that session I went through probably 3-4 mics for the overhead until I landed on something that made the drummer happy, made the drums sound good and didn't have an obnoxious amount of leakage from the other un-isolated things in the room.
I encourage experimentation & being unconventional...
To that end I own four snare drums & a bag full of cymbals that come out to drum tracking sessions... and I always have at least one or two trashy mics floating around... 57 into a sansamp... green bullet into a fender champ in an iso booth... etc.
FWIW - in your small room there I'd probably go with a mono overhead & close mic the toms for maximum impact & to minimize the room sound. Maybe try the drums in a corner with 3-4 mics scattered around & bunch of compression...
Like always... depends on what your going for...
Well, if you want to go there it does all really start with head choice and tuning which is a deep well, and one that (usually) makes a larger difference then microphone choice & placement.
No offense intended, especially if your rig is giving desired results... but anytime it falls to a "this is how I do... these are the mics I use..." sort of thing, well... that's always a loss. Every session, every SONG is different.
So much of recording & production comes down to purely listening.
Is "it" whatever that "it" is... is it carrying it's weight? Is that sound/tone/part doing what its supposed to be doing to make the song better?
I mean, in the photos I posted above, that session I went through probably 3-4 mics for the overhead until I landed on something that made the drummer happy, made the drums sound good and didn't have an obnoxious amount of leakage from the other un-isolated things in the room.
I encourage experimentation & being unconventional...
To that end I own four snare drums & a bag full of cymbals that come out to drum tracking sessions... and I always have at least one or two trashy mics floating around... 57 into a sansamp... green bullet into a fender champ in an iso booth... etc.
FWIW - in your small room there I'd probably go with a mono overhead & close mic the toms for maximum impact & to minimize the room sound. Maybe try the drums in a corner with 3-4 mics scattered around & bunch of compression...
Like always... depends on what your going for...
T
TheArchitect
Guest
Re: Middle-Side recording for drums?!?
I wrote it for people who really have no idea what you are talking about because they have never done a drum kit and need step by step to get them started. Nothing more, nothing less. I have spent endless hours in my room experimenting and know what works. This aint my first rodeo.
I wrote it for people who really have no idea what you are talking about because they have never done a drum kit and need step by step to get them started. Nothing more, nothing less. I have spent endless hours in my room experimenting and know what works. This aint my first rodeo.
J Moose
New member
Re: Middle-Side recording for drums?!?
I dunno... whats not to understand? This isn't rocket surgery... alchemy? Sure!
But you sorta made my point! Its all valid & everything works...
Only a question if it works for the songs in question.
Say you want/need the drums to be big & thuddy with blossoming cymbals... that would require different techniques then a really upfront/smacky sound. Can't get both of those with the same setup...
In small rooms... the low ceilings I find that cymbals always sound "gongy"... there's a midrange wash that sounds like a phase 90 on slow sweep. Energy from the cymbals goes up, hits the ceiling... reflects back down onto the cymbal & goes upwards again... into the mics.
I'd try putting the mics in front of the overheads... more like "in-front of heads" haha That can work pretty well... at least moves the mic out of the direct reflection path.
Mid-side in a small room can work really well too... VP88 or the stereo pairs maybe 3-4 feet in front of the drums... about even with the top of the kick/bottom of toms. Plug into some great preamps, a little compression... call it a day.
I dunno... whats not to understand? This isn't rocket surgery... alchemy? Sure!
But you sorta made my point! Its all valid & everything works...
Only a question if it works for the songs in question.
Say you want/need the drums to be big & thuddy with blossoming cymbals... that would require different techniques then a really upfront/smacky sound. Can't get both of those with the same setup...
In small rooms... the low ceilings I find that cymbals always sound "gongy"... there's a midrange wash that sounds like a phase 90 on slow sweep. Energy from the cymbals goes up, hits the ceiling... reflects back down onto the cymbal & goes upwards again... into the mics.
I'd try putting the mics in front of the overheads... more like "in-front of heads" haha That can work pretty well... at least moves the mic out of the direct reflection path.
Mid-side in a small room can work really well too... VP88 or the stereo pairs maybe 3-4 feet in front of the drums... about even with the top of the kick/bottom of toms. Plug into some great preamps, a little compression... call it a day.
T
TheArchitect
Guest
Re: Middle-Side recording for drums?!?
A lot considering how often the question gets asked on Gearslutz and the like.
You seem to think you are the only one to ever record anything so be my guest. You answer their questions.
A lot considering how often the question gets asked on Gearslutz and the like.
You seem to think you are the only one to ever record anything so be my guest. You answer their questions.
J Moose
New member
Re: Middle-Side recording for drums?!?
Riiiiiigggght...
"Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed" - Dave Hecht
With that high water mark established... not for nothing, but I'd venture to say that I've spent more time hanging microphones & working with some of the best engineers & producers in the world then most people have spent sitting in traffic during their daily commute.
(why did this thread go THERE?)
BTW - If anyone has questions... more then happy to answer.
I still abide by hanging some microphones... moving them around a little... not unlike the focus of a camera and checking everything in mono. Preferably one speaker mono.
Riiiiiigggght...
"Gearslutz -- Where the uneducated go to fight it out with the misinformed" - Dave Hecht
With that high water mark established... not for nothing, but I'd venture to say that I've spent more time hanging microphones & working with some of the best engineers & producers in the world then most people have spent sitting in traffic during their daily commute.
(why did this thread go THERE?)
BTW - If anyone has questions... more then happy to answer.
I still abide by hanging some microphones... moving them around a little... not unlike the focus of a camera and checking everything in mono. Preferably one speaker mono.
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TwilightOdyssey
Darkness on the edge of Tone
Re: Middle-Side recording for drums?!?
Not to get into this debate (which should never have started, imo) but --
I have found Moose to be a font of useful information and not stingy with his knowledge. I'm also a firm believer that there are levels to opinions and an expert opinion holds a lot more weight than one that isn't no matter how passionate they are.
I'm not saying that Moose's opinions are automatically better than most people's but ... waitaminute, that's exactly what I'm saying. This is how he pays his rent. That holds a lot of weight with this poster.
Not to get into this debate (which should never have started, imo) but --
I have found Moose to be a font of useful information and not stingy with his knowledge. I'm also a firm believer that there are levels to opinions and an expert opinion holds a lot more weight than one that isn't no matter how passionate they are.
I'm not saying that Moose's opinions are automatically better than most people's but ... waitaminute, that's exactly what I'm saying. This is how he pays his rent. That holds a lot of weight with this poster.
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T
TheArchitect
Guest
Re: Middle-Side recording for drums?!?
Then go ask him your questions because I don't give a rats ass what you think or what holds water with you. I know how to do this stuff. You don't have any idea what I do or what my studio skills and experience are but you have already made your judgement that his opinion is valid and mine is not. He is not the only person on the planet who knows how to record. I tried to lend a little knowledge to the discussion and the self important, fanboy peanut gallery decided they were they smartest kids in school and basically told me to piss off. So be it. I won't bother to help again.
Then go ask him your questions because I don't give a rats ass what you think or what holds water with you. I know how to do this stuff. You don't have any idea what I do or what my studio skills and experience are but you have already made your judgement that his opinion is valid and mine is not. He is not the only person on the planet who knows how to record. I tried to lend a little knowledge to the discussion and the self important, fanboy peanut gallery decided they were they smartest kids in school and basically told me to piss off. So be it. I won't bother to help again.
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ksmith63
New member
Re: Middle-Side recording for drums?!?
Dude,
1. chill out, it's the internet
2. you deleted your only post in this thread that could have said anything.
3. your other posts were pushing your own agenda/recording ideas and failed to be relevant to anyone's questions.
4. mentioning gearslutz as a rebuttal to someone who's CAREER IS MUSIC won't go very far
Dude,
1. chill out, it's the internet
2. you deleted your only post in this thread that could have said anything.
3. your other posts were pushing your own agenda/recording ideas and failed to be relevant to anyone's questions.
4. mentioning gearslutz as a rebuttal to someone who's CAREER IS MUSIC won't go very far
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