Mission Amps American 18 watter, 5F11 type amp.

[missionamps]

Re: Mission Amps American 18 watter, 5F11 type amp.

Bruce,

I have read here, or perhaps on another forum, that bass response with 6V6s tends to "flub out" at higher volumes (or is it under distortion?). If there is any validity to those claims, would that effect be lessened as wattage is increased? I mean, generally speaking, in addition to the extra headroom, would the response remain tighter using the higher wattage 5F11 circuit vs the 5E3?

Yes, in this circuit... tuned the way I have it now, the bass response is actually less and tighter...more focused at guitar bass freqs and up.
Guitar bass notes are around 83Hz and up to maybe 200Hz ... any guitar amp tuned for big power output at lower then that is just wasting PA energy and it
taxes the smaller OTs found in guitar amps. And by the way, most guitar speakers are down many dB from 80HZ on down so they whole setup can end up being a mismatch.
I try to blend and match these facts into a more positive, focused way.
Even though the 5E3 can only muster about 12 watts output on a great day, you can do a similar thing with 5E3 but it doesn't sound like the vintage 5E3 any more and some players don't want that. That's why they record so well.... you can fix it all later.
With respect to 6V6s, I wouldn't say the bass in 6V6s flubs out for any reason singular in nature, just to 6V6sl... the output transformers found in many 6V6s amps are really a little small and the amps are frequently voiced with too much bass response in the first place. As as you get louder and louder, the PA stage (including the OT and power tubes) can be a bit overwhelmed. This is one of the things you'll discover working with pro players... the overall bass level in the player's guitar, amps and tone is really down many dB from what weekend warriors will use. When a pro sound is mixed properly on stage with a bass player and other instruments, (or in a studio) this is where the orchestration and sonic alignment comes into play.
I know that sounds goofy when talking about rock n' roll, blues or any modern music... but it still applies just as did 200 years ago.

I am also a tremolo freak .......... does the intensity vary at all as a function of volume setting, or can you set the intensity level and it remains constant through volume level changes?

It is power tube tremolo so the effect is constant regardless of the preamp volume... in other words, what ever the signal is going into the power tubes, it is not really effected by the tremolo but the amount of power tube volume is going up and down.
There is a little tonal shift with power tube tremolo because the bias of the power tubes is greatly modulation... this changes the Q of the PA and also can increase or decrease the overall B+ to previous preamp stages so they shift in tone a smidge too.
It is very subtle but gives the tremolo a little bit of a warble/leslie effect.

In layman's terms, aside form the addition of tremolo, how is this amp different from the Aurora?

Two totally different amp topologies.
The Aurora is more like tweed Bassman meets VOX AC50 at half the power with a small bit of 50 watt Marshall tuning thrown in... and the 18w Aurora has volume, treble, bass, master volume and a pedal boost that completely changes the tone stack to give the tone a 3dB to 6dB boosted sound, a little like a mid range squanky, wha-wha pedal stuck on a little bit.
Like the V-Lux, the Aurora also has a similar HB vs SC pickup tuning switch on the chassis.
The switch is really just a way to shelve some of the abundant, very low frequency energy found in HB pickups that can muddy up many amps with too high of bass and low midrange output.

I ask because I am technically challenged but intend to own or at least order an amp in the 18-22 watt range before the end of the year.

In today's typical venues I find that most players can get by with amps well under 30 watts with <20 watts, a few pedals for FX and great speakers being the real "money setup".

 

[ErikH]

Re: Mission Amps American 18 watter, 5F11 type amp.

This sounds like a VERY cool amp. Having played through a few Aurora's myself, I can say they are great sounding amps so there's no doubt in my mind about this one.

The Aurora is more like tweed Bassman meets VOX AC50 at half the power with a small bit of 50 watt Marshall tuning thrown in...

And I must say the tone is INCREDIBLE! And don't let the low wattage number fool you. It is LOUD! Trust me. I still want this amp. Finances are not working for me to be able to do so lately. Man, I hate playing catch-up.

 

[Hot _Grits]

Re: Mission Amps American 18 watter, 5F11 type amp.

Hey Bruce, done any work along the lines of Victoria's Double Deluxe (4xJJ6V6s, tweed twin transformer, 30-50w depending onr ectifier and speaker ohmage)?

-if so, what do you think of the idea of adding a switchable negative feedback loop to enhance clean headroom?

 

[the guy who invented fire]

Re: Mission Amps American 18 watter, 5F11 type amp.

Im glad Bruce got in on this, he can answer all the tech questions for you guys...

The volume control works VERY well...it has a great feel to it going form clean to scream...

 

[the guy who invented fire]

Re: Mission Amps American 18 watter, 5F11 type amp.

Jeez Christian, where'd you learn to write a review ????
Seriously, thanks for the review....sounds like a little killer :bigok:

Well the man did let me try his amp for several weeks the least I coudl do is try my hand at a decent review! It is a killer...one of the best new amps I've tried in years!

Bruce has touched on most of the other questions here but I'll add this...

There is no flub in this amp, even with buckers at VERY high volume levels it stays pretty **** tight on the bottom.

Also, the tremolo is just wicked!

I''ve not tried an Aurora (but would love to!) but the impression I get is that the Aurora is more britt than American, the V-Lux is American all the way (old school American) and is just a great amp.

It'll stomp a 5E3 in the dirt with ease...more power, easier to gig, more useable inputs, tremolo the list gfoes on and on and with the Neo speaker it's just about the lightest 18 watt amp I've ever picked up!

Keep the questions coming guys!!!

 

[missionamps]

Re: Mission Amps American 18 watter, 5F11 type amp.

Hey Bruce, done any work along the lines of Victoria's Double Deluxe (4xJJ6V6s, tweed twin transformer, 30-50w depending onr ectifier and speaker ohmage)?

-if so, what do you think of the idea of adding a switchable negative feedback loop to enhance clean headroom?

Yes, before I even knew there was a double deluxe from Victoria, I was building an amp like this and called it the 5E3X2.
A few years ago, in a different time when Lew and I were beta testing and consulting/helping WeberVST get started on some new products, I gave that project to them. I think they still sell the amp kit, also calling it the 5E3X2.
Although they used different transformers and misc parts from China, the basic idea was the same and I know they had some success with it.
Before I gave the project to them, I used his old tweed 5C5 Pro chassis and punched two extra holes in the chassis for four 6V6s.
For transformers, I used the excellent sounding PTs and OTs from TMI in Chicago (who also did the original Matchless transformers).
I think Lew discovered that company somehow and then we found out the Fender copy iron was being sold/distributed by Ruby Tubes/Magic Parts of California so we could be smaller qtys. I don't know if they still use TMI as their custom winder or not.
Anyhow, the trannys I used in the 5E3X2 were copies of a silver face Pro Reverb PT and for the OT I used their version of the silver face Super Reverb OT, which had 2,4 and 8 ohm taps so it was easy to match up to the 2X12 bottom at 4 ohms.
With a NOS 5U4GB, the amp could make about +28 watts.

During those days I had MOJO's cabinet shop custom build me narrow panel low power tweed Twin cabinets, which had the staggered 2 x12"s and they would cut in the smaller 5C5 chassis before tweeding.
I also turned Weber on to those custom made MOJO combo cabinets and with an agreement by me and MOJO, they built them for Weber for a while, until Weber got their own cabinet shop hooked up and started to build them themselves.
Anyhow, the 5E3X2 is a pretty cool amp with some tweaking and when using a couple great speakers in the 2x12 cabinet, it can really rock out at +25 watts.

NFB in the tweed Deluxe style amp can help clean it up but you have to do it in a little different way.
The phase inverter is a cathodyne driver so the single 12AX7 triode stage in front of it has to be the one connected to the NFB, ...as you would in a BF Princeton Reverb.
It's actually pretty simple and straight forward if you look at a schem and layout for a Princeton Reverb.... you would not use the same FB resistor but a 2700 ohm resistor at the speaker jack in series with a 10K pot instead... nice variable NFB mod.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Mission Amps American 18 watter, 5F11 type amp.

So Bruce, I have a question:

When are we going to get started on that Lew Collins Signature Model????

I mentioned it here months ago and then you had your shoulder operated on and went into rehab. I really think that amp will be your biggest seller and will be just what the doctor ordered (so to speak) for most players.

18 watts, one channel, one 12" Celestion, tube reverb, no tremolo and no master volume. Sort of like a hot rodded Princeton Reverb but with more of a Vox/Marshall character.

Bruce has rebuilt two of my old DR's and PR's to where they've morphed into something very, VERY different from what Leo ever intended and they're all I play.

Also, I want to point out that 10 years ago my dream was for Bruce to design some under 25 watt amps that got the BIG sound at reasonable volumes. And he's done it.

I've been playing since about 1964 and gone through jillions of amps.

It's my observation that most guitarists show up for the gig with way, WAY more amp than we need. 50 watts and 100 watts are just to much amp for 99% of the gigs that I've played over the last 40 years.

99% of the time an 18 or 22 watt amp is all I need.

Guys are convinced that they need more power than that, and maybe some guys in heavy metal bands do. But most of us don't.

We bring those big amps to small clubs and we cannot turn them up loud enough to get a full satisfying tone.

18 to 22 watts is finally becoming COOL. And I'm glad to see it.

 

[Stratman]

Re: Mission Amps American 18 watter, 5F11 type amp.

It's my observation that most guitarists show up for the gig with way, WAY more amp than we need. 50 watts and 100 watts are just to much amp for 99% of the gigs that I've played over the last 40 years.

99% of the time an 18 or 22 watt amp is all I need.

Guys are convinced that they need more power than that, and maybe some guys in heavy metal bands do. But most of us don't.

We bring those big amps to small clubs and we cannot turn them up loud enough to get a full satisfying tone.

18 to 22 watts is finally becoming COOL. And I'm glad to see it.

++++ on this one ++++

I stopped playing 50, 60, 100 watt amps. The only 35 watt amps I still play "At bigger clubs or outdoors" are Edana 007 or JTM-45.

Most times, it is Franklin and a Bassman (Driving a Vibrotone) - that's it.

Guys take note,
Bartenders serve you drinks and can not hear orders if the band is too loud.
Too loud, and you don't get called back.

That said, I keep my amp at proper tone levels regardless where the volume pot happens to be on.

I have played in places, where some douchbag comes up and complains about "All this noise, it too loud..." What I do then is ask him to watch as I turn the amp down... Then turn it up higher than it was before (10), and tell him gee your right, I must have bumped it by mistake - have him watch me turn it down to wherever it was before (3~6) and have him leave with a smile as he brags to his friends 'How he got the guitar player to turn down."

Works every time!

 

[Hot _Grits]

Re: Mission Amps American 18 watter, 5F11 type amp.

Yes, before I even knew there was a double deluxe from Victoria, I was building an amp like this and called it the 5E3X2.
A few years ago, in a different time when Lew and I were beta testing and consulting/helping WeberVST get started on some new products, I gave that project to them. I think they still sell the amp kit, also calling it the 5E3X2.
Although they used different transformers and misc parts from China, the basic idea was the same and I know they had some success with it.
Before I gave the project to them, I used his old tweed 5C5 Pro chassis and punched two extra holes in the chassis for four 6V6s.
For transformers, I used the excellent sounding PTs and OTs from TMI in Chicago (who also did the original Matchless transformers).
I think Lew discovered that company somehow and then we found out the Fender copy iron was being sold/distributed by Ruby Tubes/Magic Parts of California so we could be smaller qtys. I don't know if they still use TMI as their custom winder or not.
Anyhow, the trannys I used in the 5E3X2 were copies of a silver face Pro Reverb PT and for the OT I used their version of the silver face Super Reverb OT, which had 2,4 and 8 ohm taps so it was easy to match up to the 2X12 bottom at 4 ohms.
With a NOS 5U4GB, the amp could make about +28 watts.

During those days I had MOJO's cabinet shop custom build me narrow panel low power tweed Twin cabinets, which had the staggered 2 x12"s and they would cut in the smaller 5C5 chassis before tweeding.
I also turned Weber on to those custom made MOJO combo cabinets and with an agreement by me and MOJO, they built them for Weber for a while, until Weber got their own cabinet shop hooked up and started to build them themselves.
Anyhow, the 5E3X2 is a pretty cool amp with some tweaking and when using a couple great speakers in the 2x12 cabinet, it can really rock out at +25 watts.

NFB in the tweed Deluxe style amp can help clean it up but you have to do it in a little different way.
The phase inverter is a cathodyne driver so the single 12AX7 triode stage in front of it has to be the one connected to the NFB, ...as you would in a BF Princeton Reverb.
It's actually pretty simple and straight forward if you look at a schem and layout for a Princeton Reverb.... you would not use the same FB resistor but a 2700 ohm resistor at the speaker jack in series with a 10K pot instead... nice variable NFB mod.

Thanks for all that info! -I love my Vic DD and a little more clean headroom would be great for certain gigs. I'll pass that on to my tech and we'll have a little fun...

 

[LesStrat]

Re: Mission Amps American 18 watter, 5F11 type amp.

:cool3:

Keep up the good work, Bruce. This amp sounds like a winner.