Myth busted on capacitors and tone

[uOpt]

Re: Myth busted on capacitors and tone

I'll just keep buying Russian paper in oil caps. I can afford them, they look cool and they sound good to me.

Ahh, but that's the thing.

I tried capacitors on a rotary dial and then in recorded blind tests.

The difference that I think I can hear is that the cheap ceramic disks have more of a "roar" or a "drive" to them (when engaging the tone pot very lightly), whereas the orange drops are more open sounding. The roar is a bit like what you have in a humbucker or any two-coil setup (such as a Jazz bass with both pickups on). It makes me think that the audible difference, if any, is rooted in some form of phase shifting due to non-capacitance electrical properties of the capacitor.

Now, the problem with the PiO capacitor buying is that they sounded like the ceramics, but even more so.

To put it on a scale

[open]<---------------------------------------------------->[roar/drive]<------->[more roar]
orange drop                                         ceramic                      russian PiO

(just to preempt the usual whining, in such tests I always use two ceramics, one randomly picked, and one picked that has the precise capacitance that whatever is the other capacitor in the test shows on the same meter. The result is still that the two ceramics sound the same (although they have different capacitance values) and neither sounds closer to whatever the other capacitor in the test is)

 

[Rockstar216]

Re: Myth busted on capacitors and tone

How did you account for the difference in your picking hand when hitting the strings? Or was it done a different way?

 

[uOpt]

Re: Myth busted on capacitors and tone

How did you account for the difference in your picking hand when hitting the strings? Or was it done a different way?

I play clips that are almost a minute long, so the differences even out, statistically.

The most useful thing to play is IMHO classic guitar style fingerpicking of full chords. That is much easier to make consistent than using a plectrum. If you broke a fingernail you are screwed, though. There is a good frequency spectrum there from low to high.

The most used clip is also repeated 3 times (since I'm on it anyway).

 

[Metalblaze]

Re: Myth busted on capacitors and tone

Some components affect sound for sure, I can hear a clear difference between FETs and BJTs in power amps, but caps in guitars, I've never tried. All my guitars have no tone control....
Of course you need studio monitors to hear any difference, if there is any...

 

[GilmourD]

Re: Myth busted on capacitors and tone

Half my guitars don't even have tone controls and those that do barely see them used.

I'll buy a quality cap, like an Orange Drop or something, but I'm not going to spend significant money on a part that is going to make less difference in my tone than where along the string I'm picking.

 

[Artie]

Re: Myth busted on capacitors and tone

On one hand, I agree with their conclusions. On the other hand, the way they got there was nonsense.

A few years ago, I did a similar test. $22 Hovland cap on one side of a 5-way selector, 10-cent ceramic disc on the other end. Orange drop, Sprague, etc., in between. All .022uf. Tested, compared in a temp/humidity controlled cal lab. I could hear no difference.

But their "scientific" comparison was dumb. They only measured freq response. They didn't measure THD. (Total Harmonic Distortion.) Or any other kind, for that matter. Those things count.

My point being, if you want to give us a subjective test, with your ears, cool. I'll buy that. But don't give us "scientific" proof, when you missed 90% of the relevant tests.

 

[Lampy H]

Re: Myth busted on capacitors and tone

Looking cool is the most important aspect of life. Who cares how much it costs?

 

[kursatcoruhlu]

Re: Myth busted on capacitors and tone

How much does an "expensive capacitor" cost? I don't get it. I get nos sprague caps for like 2 dollars. Is that expensive? Are you like getting old bumblebees for the les pauls? I wouldn't even trust those used 50+ years old caps. What are we trying here, getting a cap for 5 cents?

 

[Snake Aces]

Re: Myth busted on capacitors and tone

Ahh, but that's the thing.

I tried capacitors on a rotary dial and then in recorded blind tests.

The difference that I think I can hear is that the cheap ceramic disks have more of a "roar" or a "drive" to them (when engaging the tone pot very lightly), whereas the orange drops are more open sounding. The roar is a bit like what you have in a humbucker or any two-coil setup (such as a Jazz bass with both pickups on). It makes me think that the audible difference, if any, is rooted in some form of phase shifting due to non-capacitance electrical properties of the capacitor.

Now, the problem with the PiO capacitor buying is that they sounded like the ceramics, but even more so.

To put it on a scale

[open]<---------------------------------------------------->[roar/drive]<------->[more roar]
orange drop                                         ceramic                      russian PiO

(just to preempt the usual wining, in such tests I always use two ceramic, one randomly picked, and one picked that has the precise capacitance that whatever is the other capacitor in the test shows on the same meter. The result is still that the two ceramics sound the same (although they have different capacitance values) and neither sounds closer to whatever the other capacitor in the test is)

Interesting!

 

[DreX]

Re: Myth busted on capacitors and tone

How much does an "expensive capacitor" cost? I don't get it. I get nos sprague caps for like 2 dollars. Is that expensive? Are you like getting old bumblebees for the les pauls? I wouldn't even trust those used 50+ years old caps. What are we trying here, getting a cap for 5 cents?

It's the principle of the thing. If you believed a certain type of cap made a tonal difference, and it turns out it didn't as a matter of fact, then you were wrong in your belief, regardless of the costs involved. Some people might say they don't want to waste the $5 if they don't have to, but that might just belie a desire to not be a self-deluding idiot.

 

[kilphody]

Re: Myth busted on capacitors and tone

Electronics= mathematics.
Did that gnat fart garlic?

PC

 

[uOpt]

Re: Myth busted on capacitors and tone

Electronics= mathematics.

Physics == nothing has purely one single property.

 

[Zombiwoof]

Re: Myth busted on capacitors and tone

I have been selling Russian caps for some years now, and they are military stock from the 70's through the 90's. Russia kept making PIO caps long after the Western countries went on to other modern types of caps. The good thing is that because these Russian caps are newer than the old "Bee's" and such, they haven't had time to drift in value like those 40-50 year old PIO's. So yes, they are NOS.

Al

Dumb question, are these all NOS or still being production?

It seems as though capacitors and resistors make more of a difference as you step up from Guitar to Pedals to Amps.

 

[David Collins]

Re: Myth busted on capacitors and tone

How much does an "expensive capacitor" cost? I don't get it. I get nos sprague caps for like 2 dollars. Is that expensive? Are you like getting old bumblebees for the les pauls? I wouldn't even trust those used 50+ years old caps. What are we trying here, getting a cap for 5 cents?

Different people have different priorities. For myself, this has nothing to do with saving or making money, but developing a more thorough understanding so that modifications can be executed or prescribed based on reliable evidence to yield as consistent and predictable outcomes as possible. If a particular factor such as cap dielectric did have an influence, then although quantifying it in tonal terms may be difficult, it could at least be verified and qualified to some degree. If I were to base my recommendations to clients only on anecdotes of questionable validity, then it is difficult to be sure the outcomes will be reliable. Basically, yes, placebos can lead to real effects for some who take them, but for a professional to prescribe them as reliable solutions or investments is not something I feel comfortable with.

The cost of a cap itself may be insignificant, but there is also opportunity cost. If tinkering and testing is something you enjoy as a leisure activity (I certainly fall under this category), then it's a non-issue. As a professional though, when someone drops an instrument off with me and is looking for a particular solution, I feel obligated to be able to deliver that as directly and quickly as possible. For these players/clients, having to return multiple times to try different unverified solutions to see which one may work adds up to a lot of unnecessary investment of time and labor, so before I recommend a solution I just want to be sure that it actually does what I say it does.

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Myth busted on capacitors and tone

Unless you have a roulette wheel for a selector, it's too easy to say to oneself "this setting is x cap, this setting is y cap" and convince yourself there is an audible difference. Because you entered the experiment with foreknowledge of the possibility of there being a difference, your subconscious mind alters your perception of the sound you hear; i.e., the brain - with the preconceived notions and expectations - acts as a filter so that you "hear" what you believed you would, or do not hear what others told you that you would hear because of your opposing argument.

Even if you get a test subject and have them listen to a series of tones and note any differences they observe, you will find some who say they heard no difference and others who say they clearly heard a difference, because they are expecting there to be a difference.
However, there's also a fairly wide margin of error there as many people have some form of an aural defect which colors the sounds they hear regardless of their involvement in said test.

Even with testing equipment, it has a bias towards a given result built into it - the input mic's tone, the components that the electrical impulse generated by the input mic pass through and their effect on that signal, the characteristics of the circuitry that converts electrical impulses to a visual display of those impulses, the construction of the output speaker and its enclosure (if one is used) and the effects those materials have on the electrical impulses being passed along by the circuitry that converts sound to those electrical impulses.

It's a never-ending conundrum where there is always "some thing" that "does something" to the impetus.

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: Myth busted on capacitors and tone

I tend to use orange drop Sprague caps.

This is not because I harbour any delusions that they might be superior to anything else. It is for the simple reasons that they are chunky enough to get a good hold of and the colour makes them easy to find without needing to put on my glasses.

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Myth busted on capacitors and tone

And then there's that.

Man, how I hate dropping the "M&M mini" caps. Even the yellow-orange ones disappear into the green carpet they fell into.

 

[GuitarStv]

Re: Myth busted on capacitors and tone

How much does an "expensive capacitor" cost? I don't get it. I get nos sprague caps for like 2 dollars. Is that expensive? Are you like getting old bumblebees for the les pauls? I wouldn't even trust those used 50+ years old caps. What are we trying here, getting a cap for 5 cents?

5 cents is pretty expensive for a capacitor. 2$ is getting into the insane range. (We buy them in bulk at work, and they're usually closer to 1-2 cents. Harder to nick them though as we've been moving towards SMDs)

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: Myth busted on capacitors and tone

I hate dropping the "M&M mini" caps. Even the yellow-orange ones disappear into the green carpet they fell into.

Surefire solution. Walk about in bare feet. You'll soon find any small metal object.

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Myth busted on capacitors and tone

Actually I prefer to drag a JB around the floor. Hey, gotta use it for something, right?


And there are worse things lost in my carpet than caps; we're talking pickguard screws as black as night and twice as foul.
Ergo, I have a Shoes Are Mandatory policy.