Kirk Dahnke
Member
Not perfect, and not the P90 version, but I could see it possibly working in the neck. Maybe try a 1 meg pot?
Need bridge pickup advice...
- Thread starter Toejam
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Not perfect, and not the P90 version, but I could see it possibly working in the neck. Maybe try a 1 meg pot?
I remember reading the old Dimarzio ad copy when they were releasing these pickups.
It never occured to me to ask, what is an "overly bright" guitar??
This certainly wouldn't be a LP or SG style guitar. I think maybe they were talking about strats, but those overcome it with 250K pots.
Maybe a Floyd guitar?? IME, those tend to be darker than strats.
I think the Tone Zone is just a really solid all around pickup in the Dimarzio flavor (which usually have more bass than other brands). The Tone Zone came stock in many high end Ibanez guitars for a decade or more.
Also worth checking out a Super 3 sometime. I think the Tone Zone was like a S3-lite.
I think alot of these pickups came out when people were mostly still playing Marshalls. Modern amps seem to have more/tighter bass, resonance knob, etc.
Kirk Dahnke
Member
Thank you! The P90 sized Tone Zone was free. Just trying to make it work in a P90 Les Paul Custom clone. I ordered a Tonerider bridge Hot P90 already. I know I want that in the bridge. Since the TZ was free, I could sell it if I can't get it to sound good. I have other P90 guitars with a normal set up. And I have 2 vintage MIJ LPCs with excellent Brandonwound Humbuckers. So I'm not really looking for the sound of another LPC with an inferior bridge humbucker. What I'd really like out of the P90 TZ is a P90 Super Distortion sound in the neck. One of my favorite Doom guitarists has a Gold top with two Super D P90s.
So I'm trying to mod the TZ to get closer to that. Whatever it takes. 1 meg pot, magnet swap, etc. The P90 TZ actually uses ceramic magnets to get the same sound of the regular TZ that has Alnico magnets. I think all I need is a bit more treble out of the TZ in the neck. Also the P90 TZ is 16.77K, so pretty hot.
"Overly bright" would be a lot of Ibanez RGs or the '90s MIJ Jacksons. Bolt on, floating trems (both Ibanez's Edge and Jackson's licensed Floyd of the late '90s tend to be brighter than an OFR), maple neck, some bright body wood, lightweight kind of guitars.
They were put on a lot of Ibanez guitars stock because those Ibanez RGs were exactly the kind of super-bright guitars the TZ was designed for.
I'll never understand why, when Jackson started including Seymour Duncans on those guitars, they went with JBs in the bridge -- they sound *terrible* in those guitars, they need something like an Invader or a War Pig to actually sound good IME.
Rex_Rocker
Well-known member
I've never tried a guitar bright enough to make a dark-sounding pickup be bright. I don't think any amount of acoustic zing from a guitar can change what a dark pickup is doing electrically.
I'm not saying tonewood doesn't make a difference, but I'm not sure how a Tone Zone in the neck can be balanced out by... anything, really. Even in that clip, the pickup just almost sounds like it's in a different room in the clean samples.
Distorted, it's not too bad, though. And if Doom is your objective, then yeah, maybe.
JME/JMO
I'm not saying tonewood doesn't make a difference, but I'm not sure how a Tone Zone in the neck can be balanced out by... anything, really. Even in that clip, the pickup just almost sounds like it's in a different room in the clean samples.
Distorted, it's not too bad, though. And if Doom is your objective, then yeah, maybe.
JME/JMO
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Chistopher
malapterurus electricus tonewood instigator
I've never heard of this pickup set before
Rex_Rocker
Well-known member
I've never had a Tone Zone in the neck either. But I've had Air Nortons and JB's in the neck... and both of those are dark in the neck no matter the guitar, so I can extrapolate, I suppose.
Its all relative. If the amp EQ has enough range and both pickups match, then it should be ok.
Rex_Rocker
Well-known member
That's the thing. I have not tried a bridge pickup so dark where I can see something like a Tone Zone in the neck working out.
Unless the OP wants that intentional mismatch.
Do you mean "you haven't heard a guitar bright enough to make a dark-sounding bridge pickup work in well in the bridge", or do you mean "I haven't heard a guitar bright enough to make a high-output bridge pickup not sound really dark in the neck?"
The latter, I'd agree with entirely (a TZ in the neck is madness). The former, I can name plenty of examples; a lot of Ibanez RGs are bright enough that an Invader in the bridge sounds balanced as opposed to dark, and my Jackson KE-3 is bright enough that a C-Pig in the bridge makes it sound balanced rather than dark.
soulforger
Active member
Michael Romeo of Symphony X has used Tone Zones in the neck position of his Caparison guitars for years, he makes it work!
freefrog
Well-known member
If memory serves me, the P90 sized TZ has a double thick ceramic magnet. Its two rows of screw poles are directly in contact with it.
I wouldn't expect another magnet to make it work in neck position. Any AlNi(Co) bar should just make it less focused and darker by weakening its magnetic field and increasing its inductance (which is already high: my archives state that 7.77H have been measured here on this exact model. With a normally sized A5 bar, it rised to 8.88H according to my notes. It's 1/4 to 1/3 more than for a regular P90, for the record).
1M pots would make more peaky the main resonant peak, without cancelling the rather heavy comb filtering effect that Dual-Resonance creates beyond this main resonant frequency for this model. It would potentially make the sound heavy in the hi-mids but still with dark harmonics.
If I had to make it work in neck position, maybe I'd try to pull off 6 screw poles: the 3 ones closest to the bridge under the wound strings, the 3 ones closest to the neck for the high strings.
You migth appreciate the contrary. Or find interesting to pull off the screw poles in the whole same coil of your choice. Or pull off 3 screws only in a coil under the bass strings... Experiment.
It should lower the inductance and weaken the magnetic flux, making the pickup weaker / brighter while keeping it in humbucking mode.
A more radical solution would be to wire the P90 TZ in parallel. It would give the brightest weakest tone this model is able to achieve by itself (by dividing by 4 its overall inductance in series and cancelling the comb filtering due to Dual-Resonance, this time).
You might also put a 10nF capacitor in series with the neck PU. Just be aware that it would change the behavior of any tone control after it and would alter the response when both pickups are enabled.
All of this boring post is based on past experiments with the model mentioned, FWIW. Now, do what you want and be happy.
EDIT - Below a screenshot about the DiMarzio P90 TZ with all vs half of its screw poles (I had forgotten I had that in my archives, currently way more crowded than my old brain).
it shows the electrically induced resonant peaks of the whole PU in series, with standard pots and 10' cable. Dotted lines = phase response. Bottom ragged lines = THD. The test had been done in such a way that it wouldn't show the effects of Dual-Resonance (which can be seen when each coil is excited separately in humbucking mode. Here both coils were excited in the same time by a perpendicular ultra-low impedance air coil).
The version with half screw poles is shown by the red line (and tighter, as expected)...
With the pickup wired in parallel, the resonant peak would be higher pitched, changing the balance between fundamental notes and harmonics for a single coilish tone.
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Coma
Well-known member
I think you're gonna be pleased with the Tone Zone. I play a lot of the same stuff you do as well. Slightly different construction, but I've got a Charvel 750 (mahogany body, thick maple cap, set maple neck, 24.75" scale length, Floyd Rose) with a Tone Zone in the bridge and I think it sounds fantastic.
Kirk Dahnke
Member
If memory serves me, the P90 sized TZ has a double thick ceramic magnet. Its two rows of screw poles are directly in contact with it.
I wouldn't expect another magnet to make it work in neck position. Any AlNi(Co) bar should just make it less focused and darker by weakening its magnetic field and increasing its inductance (which is already high: my archives state that 7.77H have been measured here on this exact model. With a normally sized A5 bar, it rised to 8.88H according to my notes. It's 1/4 to 1/3 more than for a regular P90, for the record).
1M pots would make more peaky the main resonant peak, without cancelling the rather heavy comb filtering effect that Dual-Resonance creates beyond this main resonant frequency for this model. It would potentially make the sound heavy in the hi-mids but still with dark harmonics.
If I had to make it work in neck position, maybe I'd try to pull off 6 screw poles: the 3 ones closest to the bridge under the wound strings, the 3 ones closest to the neck for the high strings.
You migth appreciate the contrary. Or find interesting to pull off the screw poles in the whole same coil of your choice. Or pull off 3 screws only in a coil under the bass strings... Experiment.
It should lower the inductance and weaken the magnetic flux, making the pickup weaker / brighter while keeping it in humbucking mode.
A more radical solution would be to wire the P90 TZ in parallel. It would give the brightest weakest tone this model is able to achieve by itself (by dividing by 4 its overall inductance in series and cancelling the comb filtering due to Dual-Resonance, this time).
You might also put a 10nF capacitor in series with the neck PU. Just be aware that it would change the behavior of any tone control after it and would alter the response when both pickups are enabled.
All of this boring post is based on past experiments with the model mentioned, FWIW. Now, do what you want and be happy.
EDIT - Below a screenshot about the DiMarzio P90 TZ with all vs half of its screw poles (I had forgotten I had that in my archives, currently way more crowded than my old brain).
it shows the electrically induced resonant peaks of the whole PU in series, with standard pots and 10' cable. Dotted lines = phase response. Bottom ragged lines = THD. The test had been done in such a way that it wouldn't show the effects of Dual-Resonance (which can be seen when each coil is excited separately in humbucking mode. Here both coils were excited in the same time by a perpendicular ultra-low impedance air coil).
The version with half screw poles is shown by the red line (and tighter, as expected)...
With the pickup wired in parallel, the resonant peak would be higher pitched, changing the balance between fundamental notes and harmonics for a single coilish tone.
View attachment 6326087
I did remove the poles like that in a terrible sounding neck humbucker before. It worked. I think ill try that. Wouldn't removing the 3 poles closest to the neck on the wound strings be better for removing some mud?
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Kirk Dahnke
Member
If memory serves me, the P90 sized TZ has a double thick ceramic magnet. Its two rows of screw poles are directly in contact with it.
I wouldn't expect another magnet to make it work in neck position. Any AlNi(Co) bar should just make it less focused and darker by weakening its magnetic field and increasing its inductance (which is already high: my archives state that 7.77H have been measured here on this exact model. With a normally sized A5 bar, it rised to 8.88H according to my notes. It's 1/4 to 1/3 more than for a regular P90, for the record).
1M pots would make more peaky the main resonant peak, without cancelling the rather heavy comb filtering effect that Dual-Resonance creates beyond this main resonant frequency for this model. It would potentially make the sound heavy in the hi-mids but still with dark harmonics.
If I had to make it work in neck position, maybe I'd try to pull off 6 screw poles: the 3 ones closest to the bridge under the wound strings, the 3 ones closest to the neck for the high strings.
You migth appreciate the contrary. Or find interesting to pull off the screw poles in the whole same coil of your choice. Or pull off 3 screws only in a coil under the bass strings... Experiment.
It should lower the inductance and weaken the magnetic flux, making the pickup weaker / brighter while keeping it in humbucking mode.
A more radical solution would be to wire the P90 TZ in parallel. It would give the brightest weakest tone this model is able to achieve by itself (by dividing by 4 its overall inductance in series and cancelling the comb filtering due to Dual-Resonance, this time).
You might also put a 10nF capacitor in series with the neck PU. Just be aware that it would change the behavior of any tone control after it and would alter the response when both pickups are enabled.
All of this boring post is based on past experiments with the model mentioned, FWIW. Now, do what you want and be happy.
EDIT - Below a screenshot about the DiMarzio P90 TZ with all vs half of its screw poles (I had forgotten I had that in my archives, currently way more crowded than my old brain).
it shows the electrically induced resonant peaks of the whole PU in series, with standard pots and 10' cable. Dotted lines = phase response. Bottom ragged lines = THD. The test had been done in such a way that it wouldn't show the effects of Dual-Resonance (which can be seen when each coil is excited separately in humbucking mode. Here both coils were excited in the same time by a perpendicular ultra-low impedance air coil).
The version with half screw poles is shown by the red line (and tighter, as expected)...
With the pickup wired in parallel, the resonant peak would be higher pitched, changing the balance between fundamental notes and harmonics for a single coilish tone.
View attachment 6326087
So wiring in a .047 capacitor like this wouldn't help?
Mod Squad: Muddy sounding neck pickup? - Seymour Duncan
Muddy sounding neck pickup? Try Seymour’s quick tech fix By Seymour Duncan Tech Guru Scott Miller People often call and ask how to fix a muddy sounding neck pickup. Some years ago, Seymour taught me a cool trick to fix this exact problem. If you connect a .047 capacitor in series (directly...
www.seymourduncan.com
I don't agree with the sentiment that floyd equipped or ibanez guitars are "bright". (Maybe some of the ones with really small tone blocks, but not a typical OFR/edge.) And basswood is what most of them are made of which is not "bright". And bolt on necks create resonance which warms a guitar. Some of the really light import guitars lack bass and would benefit from a TZ, but those are not the Prestige guitars they put these in.
If you want a bright (plugged) guitar you are looking for a 10-11# neck through boat anchor.
Also, string gauge has more of an effect on brightness. Lighter gauges are brighter.
The Tone Zone is a really good all around pickup. It makes solo notes sound thick. You have to take bass out at the amp, but this pickup is solid.
About five years ago I bought a BC Rich that had a D-activator X bridge, and Super Distortion neck. The Super Distortion has as much or more bass than a TZ. That combo was godlike and well matched if you want blistering output.
A TZ in the neck would match with a Super Distortion, X2N, Dactivator (and DAX), Super3. I think Dimarzios tend to have more bass, so idk what SD it would match with.
Kirk Dahnke
Member
I'm not necessarily trying to match the bridge and neck pickup. This is for a $200 that I'm upgrading pickups in. Typically I only use bridge pickups. So the Tonerider Hot P90 is perfect for bridge tones. What I'm wanting out of the neck pickup is heavy vintage gain Doom metal tones. If its totally mud city, then that's not what I want. But I'm not at all looking for a normal P90 sound. Already have 2 P90 guitars that get that.
My experience is that neck throughs aren't as bright as bolt-ons (and this is coming from someone with the most boat-anchor neck through that you've ever imagined -- a 25.5" maple neck ebony fretboard BC Rich Beast [full sized, not Son Of Beast] with maple wings, as well as a neck-through Kiesel that's a bit less ridiculous, with a 25" maple neck ebony freboard and alder wings). I find that neck-throughs are balanced with the smoothest attack of the main three construction methods, while set necks are darker and a bit more bitey and bolt-ons are brighter and the most bitey.
As for Super Distortion vs. TZ, it depends on what you call "dark". The SuperD has more true bottom; the TZ has much thicker low mids and much less upper mids.
The more acoustically resonant a guitar is, imo that tends to make it warmer. Resonance comes from vibration points like bolt on neck, and lower mass bridges. And of course variation in wood density and other construction items (less dense wood tends to vibrate more). Resonance represents energy being filtered from the strings and into the body where it vibrates and can be heard. This changes what is picked up and amplified, but usually represents high frequency energy being rounded off. Is it any wonder that the stratocaster is paired with bright single coils? The strat by design is warm.
The RG is a strat with a Floyd. Still in the same group. Warm.
I don't buy the Dimarzio ad copy. They have to come up with things to say about their pickups. I mean it was pretty smart. If they convince you that Floyd Rose guitars like the RG are bright/thin and benefit from a specific pickup... they will sell a ton.
Ibanez putting them into their Prestige and J-Customs is coincidental and says nothing about the tonal qualities of their guitars. The TZ is a good all arounder and it makes solo notes sound thick and juicy.
I think a TZ in the neck is a totally valid thing to try and there are several good bridge matches.
I don't know what is vintage gain Doom metal? Is that like Iommi / Black Sabbath? Idk what they used but probably Super Distortion was in the mix at some point. Sorry I can't help.
The cool thing about buying pickups new is that they have an exchange policy so you can experiment with your first pick and then fall back to something you know you like.
