NOS tubes vs. the best of today's tubes.

[Gearjoneser]

Being a tube amp nut, I tend to scoop up old stock tubes as well as seeking out the best of current production.

When it comes to NOS or old stock used tubes, I'm not someone who can afford to blow big money, so I have to raid good tubes from amps I buy and sell, as well as raiding them from any source I can.

When it comes to new tubes, I just look at what people report in threads, prices on tube websites, and my own findings based on what I buy.

What I've found is that 50's tubes like Mullard, Telefunken, RCA, Mazda, Sylvania, Seimens.....yeah, all great stuff.

I've also had new tubes perform just as well, like Tungsol, Svetlana =C=, TAD, Ruby, Shuguang Chinese, JJ, Sovtek LPS etc. There's good stuff available today too.

I often read threads by older players who swear by old tubes, as well as threads about new tubes, particularly when an amp aficionado or builder is swearing by them.

In my own shootouts, I tend to choose about 5 tubes I think will work great, and swap them in/out. It becomes immediately evident which tube will stay in that position. And that can be anything from old to new. I have an entire box full of every kind of tube I've accumulated over the years, and let my ears dictate everything when swapping.

So tube fans......which NOS and new tubes have put a big smile on your face?

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: NOS tubes vs. the best of today's tubes.

Whatever has been in my V-4 since '75, when my dad bought it new. I think they must be Magnavoxes, which IIRC are relabeled RCA gray plates. They sound great, and just won't seem to die.

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: NOS tubes vs. the best of today's tubes.

I'm a huge NOS fan and have a decent stash but that being said for me it depends on the amp some amps respond to NOS tubes others not so much. I've met amp builders on both sides of the fence talking with Andrew Solner who built my Mako said that there is absolutely no need for NOS tubes. I tube roll much in the same way you do. My "go to" tubes for 12ax7's are 9th gen chinese and the EH's I can usually slap these into an amp and be happy and then tweak from there. I have a 12ax7 I really like thats a pretty unknown NOS type that I would rather not post in the open on the net the less people hunting them down and driving the price up the better. From there I have a stsh of a few amperex bugle boys with various labels on them a few old mullards a bunch of RCA, RFT and Matsu****as that I dig into to find tune an amp.

For power tubes my favorite EL34's are actually the Mesa STR450 which is a rebranded Siemens tube (with the current prices I'm glad I stocked up on these in the late 90's). I also dig the winged C and the EH EL34's. For 6L6's I like the Winged C and the TAD's My favorite NOS offerings are the Sylvania 6L6 and the Phillips 7581's For 5881's I dont think anything right now comes close to the original Tung Sol 5881s. For 6550's its vintage GE's but ive had good luck with the modern Winged C ones. I have a set of orginal grey glass KT66's that I dont have installed in anything once in awhile I pop them in just to listen to them there is nothing like them. Ive tried all the new versions of it and none of them capture the uniqueness of that tube. I'm sure I forgot some of my favorites and some that I just like but thats a general run down of what I have hanging around.

 

[Gearjoneser]

Re: NOS tubes vs. the best of today's tubes.

I hear you on not wanting to publicize certain old tubes, driving their prices up. The best thing to do is just gather as many tubes as you can. Later in life, you'll buy tube amps and get them decked out with great tubes, whether new or old, and have amps that sound beautiful the whole time you own them.

The key is to NOT sell your amps with great tubes. It's very foolish to part with dialed in tube sets.
Throw some cheapies in there when selling off an amp. I've acquired many great tubes from buying used amps.

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: NOS tubes vs. the best of today's tubes.

I hear you on not wanting to publicize certain old tubes, driving their prices up. The best thing to do is just gather as many tubes as you can. Later in life, you'll buy tube amps and get them decked out with great tubes, whether new or old, and have amps that sound beautiful the whole time you own them.

The key is to NOT sell your amps with great tubes. It's very foolish to part with dialed in tube sets.
Throw some cheapies in there when selling off an amp. I've acquired many great tubes from buying used amps.

Yeah my wife half jokes half complains that our children's inheritance will be boxes of "funny looking light bulbs" though with the prices for NOS tubes I dont buy them to hoard as much as i did 10 years ago.

I hear yah on selling an amp I always sell an amp with "fresh" tubes.

 

[zzmoore]

Re: NOS tubes vs. the best of today's tubes.

I have been happy with:
JJ El84
Tung-Sol AX7
Tung-Sol 6V6
TAD short bottle 6L6
Tung-Sol 5881
I am in search of a popular choice for a modern day EL34 for a typical 50 watt plexi.
best

 

[King IzzO)))]

Re: NOS tubes vs. the best of today's tubes.

I went through a tube testing phase a few years back. Really I could get by fine with new crap, but I don't have to, yet.

STR 387's vs. all new production stuff there's nothing like them.
TAD 6L6 STR/Ruby M-STR are decent, I really want to try the Tung-Sol 7581's sometime.
GT 6L6-R/Sovtek 5881 are good for keeping as spares, you can pretty much play tennis with them and they'll still work.

80's Mesa labeled China 12AX7
RFT 12AX7
RCA longplates
Tungsram 12AX7
NS Tung-Sol 12AX7
I use Raytheon longplates for PI's.

 

[wahwah]

Re: NOS tubes vs. the best of today's tubes.

The 12AX7 that really stands out to me is the 1950s RCA black plate, specifically in any amp with a vintage Fender type circuit. I have them in 4 amps, including my touring amp, and enough examples to last the rest of my career. For a British voiced amp, I have a stock of the early 60s short plate Blackburn Mullards, which I prefer in guitar amps to the 50s long plates. I have a small (5w) EL-84 amp that has an early 60s Mullard in it, for 6V6GTs I again like the 50s RCA black plates, and for my 6L6 and EL-34 amps I go with SED Winged C.




Cheers....................................... wahwah

 

[Grindspine]

Re: NOS tubes vs. the best of today's tubes.

My Triaxis came with Mesa branded Chinese tubes that were harsh and brittle sounding. I swapped the V1 and V2 input tubes for some Fisher branded Telefunken smooth plate ECC83 tubes. The clean, lead 1, and lead 2 channels were all smoother and at the same time more defined than with the Chinese tubes. The balance was so much better between the midrange and the high end that the pick attack and note sustain could be heard much better than with the stock tubes.

My V4 slot sports a Mullard ECC83 (NOS, not reissue), which gave my Lead 2 distortion sounds a more focused midrange. The distortion characteristic sounds more like fine-grit instead of course grit when I get to higher gain settings. It was a huge improvement over the stock Chinese 12X7A tube.

Though it is not a direct comparison, I previously used GE 6550A tubes in a Mesa/Strategy 500. My friend currently uses Svetlana (winged C) 6550C tubes in his Crate BV300 head. It is hard to directly compare distortion characteristics simply because both amps had so much headroom. In both scenarios, the 6550 tubes just have such a wide, even frequency response with clear highs, defined mids, and tight low end.

Because I was a fan of using multipe tube types in that Strategy 500 (6550 in tandem with 6L6WGB), I currently use two subtypes of 6L6 in my Mesa 2:Ninety. The class A tube sockets have a lower output Mesa branded 6L6 to emphasize the class A saturation and warmth while the stock 6L6C tubes maintain the headroom and tightness in the low end.

 

[xxxplorer]

Re: NOS tubes vs. the best of today's tubes.

I've got some G.E. 6550s that are unbeatable... Sucks as when they die, I won't be able to justify another set lol. I've also got a few ge 12ax7s. I don't much like them in my Marshall or Eggie. Too soft. Work good in the PI spot though.

Modern I like tung sols and sovtek lps for 12ax7 and ruby for el34

 

[That90'sGuy]

Re: NOS tubes vs. the best of today's tubes.

I like the N.O.S. Jan/GE stuff when I want a bit more headroom, clarity and don't mind a little softer tone - Fenders work nicely with them. When I'm looking for a ballsier tube with higher output, I'm finding the JJ ECC83S tubes are pretty good (way better than the old ECC83). For a modern tube for Fenders, I like Tung Sols (something about the voicing just works, but they aren't quite as clear as the Jan/GE which is why I prefer the NOS when possible). For power tubes, I've always sworn by Winged C products. I've had their EL-34s and I've had their 6L6s and I think they're great. For 6V6s, I've tried Electro Harmonix ones and I prefer the Tung Sols that I'm using now.

It really depends on the design of the amp. My old Bogners loved Shuguang pres and SED Winged C power tubes. I tried other pres in that amp and they just didn't work. I'm not a huge fan of the EQ of the Sovtek 12AX7LPS, but I dig the Electro Harmonix 12ax7s for an all around general tube to have.

 

[Ascension]

Re: NOS tubes vs. the best of today's tubes.

Depends on the amp and the tone stack as what works and what doesn't.
NOS will as a rule last MUCH longer than any current production will. I will normally bite the bullet and pay the $ for a NOS Rec tube like a Mullard or GE simply because they are bullet proof reliable and will last forever.
Power tubes I have a hard time paying the big $$ for NOS as they are regular maintenance items any way.
NOS Pre amps I particularly like Blackburn Mullards for a warm smooth tone + RCA Black and gray plates for a more balanced tone. Both can still be found re-branded for sane $ if you know what to look for. Pre amp tube will last a LONG time so I can justify spending the $ with the right amp---. Understated many newer amps were designed for the new production stuff so in many the tonal difference of going NOS are not that noticeable and as such not worth the extra $.
New production 12AX7's
Tungsol
EH
Mullards
Shunghang in particular late 80's 8th gen
Sovetec LPS
JJ's in particular when I have a bright or mid heavy amp that I need to mellow.
Right now I'm running mostly EL 84 amps and the only new EL 84 I really like is the TAD STR.

 

[crusty philtrum]

Re: NOS tubes vs. the best of today's tubes.

I leave NOS stuff to the audiophiles and their hi-fi gear (i.e. gear that is set up and used in one location, not transported from place to place), and I've built a lot of tube gear (guitar amps, mic preamps, hi-fi pre and power amps).

The world of guitar amps is a harsh one, and tubes get a hard life and often eaten up quite quickly. I have always opted to use tubes that are currently available so that when an amp needs new tubes, it's easy and affordable to get them back up to scratch again. Many supposedly NOS tubes now are not new, and the trend in guitar circles has pretty much seen most of the good ones get purchased, at ever-increasing prices.

I had to repair a non-functioning Fender Champ one time. The owner had purchased a NOS 6V6 for it and plugged it in. As soon as i got the amp working, the expensive power tube died. They weren't rated for the high plate voltage. A new EH version worked great, and the owner was out of pocket for the cost of an expensive NOS tube that he (and I) never even got to hear.

The old tubes may indeeed have been better built and sound slightly better, but they're a disposable item, and ... that was then, this is now. It is still possible to get great sound using contemporary tubes, which can easily be replaced at realistic prices at any time. I built many amps and re-tubed many others with current-production tubes, and every single owner has been more than happy. At some point players need to take some responsibility for sounding good by what they do with their gear. And when i see how many guitar players treat their amps, it reinforces what a waste of time and money it is having NOS tubes ... I'm talking about taking hot amps out of hot rehearsal rooms into the cold night air, dragging hot amps quickly from a stage when doing support gigs, putting the amp in the boot (trunk ?) of a car and having it bounce around whilst driving, etc. etc.

So they might sound good or better for a little while, but often not long enough to justify the cost. And of course the supply is dwindling and what's left is probably mostly rubbish. The money wasted is probably better spent on better pickups and speakers. I get wonderful guitar tones without a NOS tube in sight. But good luck to you if you buy (literally) into this stuff, all you're doing is preciptitating the end. Personally I'll be glad when there are no more NOS tubes available, and i really think for all realistic and practical purposes, that stage has been reached, and all that's left are dodgy old tubes sold by dodgy sellers.

But don't let me stop you throwing good money away.

 

[zzmoore]

Re: NOS tubes vs. the best of today's tubes.

I leave NOS stuff to the audiophiles and their hi-fi gear (i.e. gear that is set up and used in one location, not transported from place to place), and I've built a lot of tube gear (guitar amps, mic preamps, hi-fi pre and power amps).

The world of guitar amps is a harsh one, and tubes get a hard life and often eaten up quite quickly. I have always opted to use tubes that are currently available so that when an amp needs new tubes, it's easy and affordable to get them back up to scratch again. Many supposedly NOS tubes now are not new, and the trend in guitar circles has pretty much seen most of the good ones get purchased, at ever-increasing prices.

I had to repair a non-functioning Fender Champ one time. The owner had purchased a NOS 6V6 for it and plugged it in. As soon as i got the amp working, the expensive power tube died. They weren't rated for the high plate voltage. A new EH version worked great, and the owner was out of pocket for the cost of an expensive NOS tube that he (and I) never even got to hear.

The old tubes may indeeed have been better built and sound slightly better, but they're a disposable item, and ... that was then, this is now. It is still possible to get great sound using contemporary tubes, which can easily be replaced at realistic prices at any time. I built many amps and re-tubed many others with current-production tubes, and every single owner has been more than happy. At some point players need to take some responsibility for sounding good by what they do with their gear. And when i see how many guitar players treat their amps, it reinforces what a waste of time and money it is having NOS tubes ... I'm talking about taking hot amps out of hot rehearsal rooms into the cold night air, dragging hot amps quickly from a stage when doing support gigs, putting the amp in the boot (trunk ?) of a car and having it bounce around whilst driving, etc. etc.

So they might sound good or better for a little while, but often not long enough to justify the cost. And of course the supply is dwindling and what's left is probably mostly rubbish. The money wasted is probably better spent on better pickups and speakers. I get wonderful guitar tones without a NOS tube in sight. But good luck to you if you buy (literally) into this stuff, all you're doing is preciptitating the end. Personally I'll be glad when there are no more NOS tubes available, and i really think for all realistic and practical purposes, that stage has been reached, and all that's left are dodgy old tubes sold by dodgy sellers.

But don't let me stop you throwing good money away.

Yeah..... tubes and capacitor color.
They certainly Can/Do make a difference, but it is "not do or die".
You may well get longer service from a power tube that was made in 1962, but those tubes are all but gone at this point.
If your amp does not sound "right" the last potential I would suspect would be the difference between NOS and Modern Day tubes.
Other than the ability of the person holding the instrument, speakers are the Biggest variable for tone improvement... then set-up, strings and turning the knobs. Way TOO MANY guys over look the importance of the volume knob on The Guitar.
best

 

[speed2dirt]

Re: NOS tubes vs. the best of today's tubes.

The key is to NOT sell your amps with great tubes. It's very foolish to part with dialed in tube sets.
Throw some cheapies in there when selling off an amp. I've acquired many great tubes from buying used amps.

Note to self: Don't buy an amp from Joe.

I know everyone says old tubes were just made better than current tubes. How has nobody reproduced a new tube EXACTLY like the old tubes. Aren't the Gold Lions reproduction tubes? Either way, could the differemce in tubes be time, just like in pickups (ala the JB thread https://forum.seymourduncan.com/showthread.php?256637-All-JBs-are-NOT-created-equal-Why-Has-SD-Insisted-They-Are-lt-Old-JB-Photos-gt). The aged tube (time) affects the tone more than how it was produced. Can we get an Antiquity tube???

 

[Grindspine]

Re: NOS tubes vs. the best of today's tubes.

I've got some G.E. 6550s that are unbeatable... Sucks as when they die, I won't be able to justify another set lol. I've also got a few ge 12ax7s. I don't much like them in my Marshall or Eggie. Too soft. Work good in the PI spot though.

Modern I like tung sols and sovtek lps for 12ax7 and ruby for el34

Yeah the GE 6550A tubes are amazing. They just sound so pure, powerful, clear, have ultra high headroom. The Svetlana (winged C) 6550A comes close from what I can tell. I never did do an A/B comparison, but have heard both brands plenty of times.

I've got a JAN GE 12AX7A in the V3 spot of my Triaxis. It seemed pretty soft, as you stated, so I threw it in that spot so it would be emphasized on the clean modes. The Telefunken and Mullard ECC83s have so much more character, so the GE is really subtle in the slot where I have it.

 

[Grindspine]

Re: NOS tubes vs. the best of today's tubes.

Note to self: Don't buy an amp from Joe.

I know everyone says old tubes were just made better than current tubes. How has nobody reproduced a new tube EXACTLY like the old tubes. Aren't the Gold Lions reproduction tubes? Either way, could the differemce in tubes be time, just like in pickups (ala the JB thread https://forum.seymourduncan.com/showthread.php?256637-All-JBs-are-NOT-created-equal-Why-Has-SD-Insisted-They-Are-lt-Old-JB-Photos-gt). The aged tube (time) affects the tone more than how it was produced. Can we get an Antiquity tube???

No.

Tubes back then were used in everything electronic that needed a diode; now solid state transistors are used. Back then, tubes were used in anything from televisions to medical and military gear. A lot of tubes were made and quality control had to be tight.

Tubes made today are not held to the same standards simply because you don't have life critical applications depending upon the reliability of a tube.

Even if modern tube manufacturers put major effort into producing the same quality as those older tubes, they would never see a financial return that would make it worthwhile.

 

[Grindspine]

Re: NOS tubes vs. the best of today's tubes.

I leave NOS stuff to the audiophiles and their hi-fi gear (i.e. gear that is set up and used in one location, not transported from place to place), and I've built a lot of tube gear (guitar amps, mic preamps, hi-fi pre and power amps).

The world of guitar amps is a harsh one, and tubes get a hard life and often eaten up quite quickly. I have always opted to use tubes that are currently available so that when an amp needs new tubes, it's easy and affordable to get them back up to scratch again. Many supposedly NOS tubes now are not new, and the trend in guitar circles has pretty much seen most of the good ones get purchased, at ever-increasing prices.

I had to repair a non-functioning Fender Champ one time. The owner had purchased a NOS 6V6 for it and plugged it in. As soon as i got the amp working, the expensive power tube died. They weren't rated for the high plate voltage. A new EH version worked great, and the owner was out of pocket for the cost of an expensive NOS tube that he (and I) never even got to hear.

The old tubes may indeeed have been better built and sound slightly better, but they're a disposable item, and ... that was then, this is now. It is still possible to get great sound using contemporary tubes, which can easily be replaced at realistic prices at any time. I built many amps and re-tubed many others with current-production tubes, and every single owner has been more than happy. At some point players need to take some responsibility for sounding good by what they do with their gear. And when i see how many guitar players treat their amps, it reinforces what a waste of time and money it is having NOS tubes ... I'm talking about taking hot amps out of hot rehearsal rooms into the cold night air, dragging hot amps quickly from a stage when doing support gigs, putting the amp in the boot (trunk ?) of a car and having it bounce around whilst driving, etc. etc.

So they might sound good or better for a little while, but often not long enough to justify the cost. And of course the supply is dwindling and what's left is probably mostly rubbish. The money wasted is probably better spent on better pickups and speakers. I get wonderful guitar tones without a NOS tube in sight. But good luck to you if you buy (literally) into this stuff, all you're doing is preciptitating the end. Personally I'll be glad when there are no more NOS tubes available, and i really think for all realistic and practical purposes, that stage has been reached, and all that's left are dodgy old tubes sold by dodgy sellers.

But don't let me stop you throwing good money away.

For an actively gigging musician, I agree that NOS tubes might not be the best investment as they are far more expensive to replace, however, military spec tubes were more durable and were made to handle at least some shock.

That being said, I try to baby my gear when I (rarely) move it from home. I also make sure the tubes have adequate warming and cooling time.

I would be happy to try other tubes in my Mesa rig, but with the investment I was making in the first place, I decided to buy something that was regarded as being able to bring the best out of my audio chain. I have not been disappointed.

 

[wahwah]

Re: NOS tubes vs. the best of today's tubes.

I know everyone says old tubes were just made better than current tubes. How has nobody reproduced a new tube EXACTLY like the old tubes. Aren't the Gold Lions reproduction tubes? Either way, could the differemce in tubes be time, just like in pickups (ala the JB thread https://forum.seymourduncan.com/showthread.php?256637-All-JBs-are-NOT-created-equal-Why-Has-SD-Insisted-They-Are-lt-Old-JB-Photos-gt). The aged tube (time) affects the tone more than how it was produced. Can we get an Antiquity tube???

Most of the tubes coming out of the Xpo-pul plant in Saratov, Russia are pretending to be 'reproductions' of popular tubes from the 50s and 60s European, UK and US plants. They produce tubes with a variety of brand names, including Genelex, Mullard and Tung Sol, but the truth is that these tubes are made in the same factory, on the same equipment, with the same materials, as their other brandings such as Sovtek, EH and Svetlana. There are several materials and processing methods that can no longer be used that were integral components of the manufacture of Golden Era tubes. Add to this the quality control of the 1950s compared to today, the concept of designing a product to fail rapidly to maximise profits, and the diminishment of a once global product demand to a relative handful of guitarists and audiophiles, and it becomes clear that tubes like those produced by the major manufacturers of 60 years ago will never be seen again. It is not the case that ageing is responsible for the superior tone of the good vintage tubes, it is how they were produced that accounts for their tone and longevity. At best, you would hope that a 1950s RCA black plate would sound exactly the way it would have in 1958.

It remains a fact that all of the classic tones that we associate with early British and American amps are in part due to the electronic componentry used at the time, including, of course, the tubes in both the preamp and power stages, along with the rectifiers and phase inverters. Early Fender amps used RCA black plates. Early Marshalls used Mullards from the Blackburn plant. These tubes helped create the guitar sounds we associate with the music of the time, and due to their longevity, for a decade or so after. Similarly, many of the tonal changes we heard from guitars through the 80s and beyond were in part due to the demise of the great UK, European and US factories, and the reliance on the vastly inferior Eastern Bloc and Chinese tube manufacturers. By the mid 80s, amp builders had no choice but to build their amps around these poor quality tubes. This is why most modern amp designs will not be improved by vintage tubes, and why true vintage designs will almost always be improved by good vintage tubes.

The term NOS will soon be considered obsolete with regard to tubes from the Golden Era, because there will be so few examples of genuine New Old Stock. Smart buyers realised a decade ago that the real bargains were to be found in buying 'good used' vintage tubes, tested to have around 90% of their life left in them. To give an example, I have had the same set of 1958 RCA black plates, a 12AX7, 12AT7, and a pair of 6V6GTs in a Fender Super Champ that flies road cased 70 times a year and does 150 shows a year, for the past 7 years. At this point, they show no signs of weakening, much less failing. From memory, I paid $20 for the 12AX7, $12 for the 12AT7, and $40 for the pair of 6V6GTs. Sadly, those prices (2003) no longer apply, and the stocks do seem to be dwindling. Admittedly, not every guitarist will appreciate the difference, but to those of us who do, the money spent in the past has easily justified itself, in terms of both longevity and tone. For most, the future will involve making the most of what exists, and no doubt some good music will still be made.




Cheers............................................ wahwah

 

[wahwah]

Re: NOS tubes vs. the best of today's tubes.

For an actively gigging musician, I agree that NOS tubes might not be the best investment as they are far more expensive to replace, however, military spec tubes were more durable and were made to handle at least some shock.

To be honest, the JAN tubes from the major manufacturers were not designed with tone as the priority. They were designed for ruggedness, and in many cases, at the expense of tonal quality. The notion that these were somehow desirable for use by audiophiles and in guitar amps was promoted by tube dealers, whose stock of the truly toneful tubes had dried up, and all they could get in adequate supply was military surplus JAN tubes. The myth prevailed and the tubes continued to be perceived as desirable. Admittedly superior to any current production tube, and built to take a beating, but sonically not in the same league as the tubes designed with audio as the priority.




Cheers....................................... wahwah