Ok Artie how do I fix this one?

[idsnowdog]

Here's the schematic that I used on my last guitar as drawn by you. What I am looking to do is to modify the schematic so that the bridge pickup doesn't have a tone control but the neck/mid do. Both the neck/mid and bridge still have their own volume pot. By the way this is a different guitar.

Snowdog


http://www.neighborhost.com/images/idsnowdog.jpg

 

[Artie]

Re: Ok Artie how do I fix this one?

Ok . . . I just did this quick and dirty, but bear in mind, that it may not work the way you want. You'll have individual tone controls as long as you only have one pup selected. As soon as you select the neck and middle, both tone controls come into the circuit, and you'll lose twice the highs.

There's no real way to get around this that I can see.

http://www.neighborhost.com/images/idsnowdog02.jpg

Edit: Ok, now that I re-read your post, I may be misunderstanding you. Do you want just one tone control for both the neck and middle, or two tone controls?

See if this drawing is closer to what you want:

http://www.neighborhost.com/images/idsnowdog03.jpg

 

[idsnowdog]

Re: Ok Artie how do I fix this one?

What I am looking for is a 500k volume for the bridge without tone. The neck/mid 250k volume with 250k tone. The third schematic looks close to what I have and I think it might work the way I want? Let me get out the soldering iron and I will call you back.

Snowdog

 

[Artie]

Re: Ok Artie how do I fix this one?

Sometimes its better to understand the principal, rather than be locked into a literal drawing.

Look at this pic: (Hold down SHIFT, and click for large version.)



The part in the green box is the "tone control circuit". It can be attached to any of the places A, B, C, D, or E. With A being for the neck, B for the middle, etc. You can even put in more than one at multiple places, as long as you realize that they'll interact if switched inat the same time.

 

[dr.barlo]

Re: Ok Artie how do I fix this one?

I guess what he needs to do is to disconnect the pot of the bridge pickup (500K) from the tone circuit, and simply run it to the jack, and only there would the output from the neck and middle (250K vol 250tone) get connected.

But then when neck or middle is active with the bridge, the tone pot of the neck/middle would have some control over the bridge pickup as well. What the overall K value be is a funky business that I am trying to figure out myself.

Anways, it would do what he wants.

B

 

[Artie]

Re: Ok Artie how do I fix this one?

But then when neck or middle is active with the bridge, the tone pot of the neck/middle would have some control over the bridge pickup as well. What the overall K value be is a funky business that I am trying to figure out myself.

Anways, it would do what he wants.

B

Thats true. One thing to realize here, which is true of all guitar wiring, when all three pickups are selected, and both volumes are at max, points A, B, C, D, and E are all shorted together. It doesn't matter where a tone control is in the circuit, it will affect the overall tone of the whole guitar.

There's just no way to get true circuit isolation using passive components - with the exception of using isolation transformers, but thats a whole 'nother ballgame.

 

[dr.barlo]

Re: Ok Artie how do I fix this one?

Artie,

While we are at it lemme ask you about a wiring I was thinking of. (Kent if you are reading this let me know what you think)

It is for a fat/fat strat, split, and 2vol 2tone setup. I am gonna be using 2 CTS500K's and a 500/500K dual concentric pot (for the tone).

I want to run the each of the pickups into a DPDT mini swotch. The hot from that mini will go into its corresponding 500K vol pot (and the tone will be wired a la 50's). Then the hot from the vol pot will run into a 3 way tele kinda blade switch, and the hot from the 3-way will run into the jack.

How does that sound? Any comments?

 

[Artie]

Re: Ok Artie how do I fix this one?

It sounds ok, except for one thing: The "50's mod" is really only applicable to a single volume control guitar. (IMHO)

Here's why: (I'm at work, so can't illustrate this.)

The 50's mod consists of moving the tone control from the "end" of the pot, to the wiper. This means that you're adding resistance to the tone circuit as you roll-off the volume. But in a dual-volume control guitar, the pups output is connected to the wiper, (ala Les Paul), so the interaction with the tone circuit is completely different. As in - not there.

So you can approach this in two different ways:

1. Wire the volume controls "normal", which means that one control will affect both p'ups.

2. Skip trying to do the 50's mod. (Which I can't see how it would work in a dually anyway.)

Perhaps Kent will weigh in on this and double check my logic here.

Edit: Since you're going to be using a "Tele" style switch, this may be do-able. I'll haveta doodle a couple things and check.

 

[dr.barlo]

Re: Ok Artie how do I fix this one?

On 2vol/2tone guitars 50's wiring makes a lot of difference. I dunno much about electronics, yet like a year ago everybody was going crazy with that on the LPF.

I dunno those names, wiper etc. Say the all pots are facing eastwards. On a LP the upper lug is grounded. The lower lug gets the pickup, and the center lug gets the wire to the jack. Now modern wiring is to connect the lower lug with one leg of the cap to the center lug of the tone pot (which has the lower lug grounded this time). And 50's wiring is to connect one leg of the cap to the center lug of the vol pot, instead of the lower lug. So hence as the vol pot is turned down, the effect of the tone pot (making it darker) gets less. Hence, as the vol decreases not that much highs are lost.

No?

So I don't see why 50's wiring is not working on a LP? In fact, to my knowledge it was LPs (and other 2vol2tone gibsons) that came with 50's wiring instead of guitars with master tone controls. Am I wrong?

B

 

[dr.barlo]

Re: Ok Artie how do I fix this one?

And another thing. I already have 50's wiring on my tele, my LPs and a fat/fat 2tone/2vol strat (again 3 way tele switch, and 2 500K pots and a 500/500K dual concentric pot).

When the bridge pickup is switched, I don't see why the result from my fat/fat strat would be different from that of a LP regarding the 50's wiring. It is just that (instead of being connected directly to the jack) now the bridge pickup is connected to the jack running through the 3 way switch.

Thanks,

B

 

[Kent S.]

Re: Ok Artie how do I fix this one?

I think you two make my head hurt, now go away and leave me alone ... :laugh2: Seriously,I'll check back with you tomarrow, as it's bed time for me ... hang tight guys ...later. :cool3:

 

[Artie]

Re: Ok Artie how do I fix this one?

Ok, what you're describing is fundamentaly like this:

http://www.seymourduncan.com/website/support/schematics/2hum_2vol_2tone-w-5way.html

More or less, and in this configuration, the 50's mod works fine. The negative of this wiring is, say you have both pups on, both volumes at 10. If you turn one volume to zero, it will kill both pups.

This is were my initial confusion with your question comes from. In my early days in this forum, I posted that I believed that to be a mistake in the wiring diagram. Someone, (Robert S., I believe), pointed out to me that LP's we're wired slightly differently, to solve this problem. Like this:

http://guitarelectronics.zoovy.com/product/WDUHH3T2101

Here, the center and one end of the pot are reversed so that you don't get this interaction problem. And in that style wiring, the 50's mod doesn't appear to me as though it would be beneficial.

Does this make any sense?

Edit: Whenever someone talks about a dual-volume control guitar, I always assume the second wiring scheme. Perhaps I shouldn't. :laugh2:

 

[Kent S.]

Re: Ok Artie how do I fix this one?

It sounds ok, except for one thing: The "50's mod" is really only applicable to a single volume control guitar. (IMHO)

Here's why: (I'm at work, so can't illustrate this.)

The 50's mod consists of moving the tone control from the "end" of the pot, to the wiper. This means that you're adding resistance to the tone circuit as you roll-off the volume. But in a dual-volume control guitar, the pups output is connected to the wiper, (ala Les Paul), so the interaction with the tone circuit is completely different. As in - not there.

So you can approach this in two different ways:

1. Wire the volume controls "normal", which means that one control will affect both p'ups.

2. Skip trying to do the 50's mod. (Which I can't see how it would work in a dually anyway.)

Perhaps Kent will weigh in on this and double check my logic here.

Edit: Since you're going to be using a "Tele" style switch, this may be do-able. I'll haveta doodle a couple things and check.

Like I said I'll check in on this tomarrow, but the '50's mod will work with the volumes wired as variable load to source voltage dividers, although the effect won't be as pronounced because the load that that thing put on the pups. If you want to wire them that way you'd run your pups to the wiper and run the cap to the CW lug ... the main thing about the '50s mod is that that cap ( or whatever line goes to the tone control that is) connects to a lug *other than the one the pup connects to*on the volume control . Barlo learn that the wiper is the center lug, the (Clockwise) CW is the one that the wiper connects to when at *10* (righthanded people referred to here) ... you are righthanded right B? Let's not have a go round like we had last time) it's the one on the left when all three lugs are pointing at you, and the (counter-clockwise) ...CCW lug is the one that the wiper connects to when at *0*, ((ground connects here on a volume control)); it's the one one the right (all lugs facing you). Later.

 

[Artie]

Re: Ok Artie how do I fix this one?

Ok . . . I see what Kent's saying. It would work, but as he says, not quite the same way as the "other" way.

 

[dr.barlo]

Re: Ok Artie how do I fix this one?

Sleep well Kent!

 

[dr.barlo]

Re: Ok Artie how do I fix this one?

Artie, yeah I am talking about the first (in your list) kinda wiring. Well I never bothered to check out the second type. Maybe I should, yet did not have any problems with losing all the output in the middle position when turning the vol of either one to 0. Because I simply use 10-5 (audio) on my vol.

B

 

[Artie]

Re: Ok Artie how do I fix this one?

. . . Because I simply use 10-5 (audio) on my vol.

B

And that makes sense. One wouldn't "select" a pickup, and then turn its volume down to zero.

I'm probably making more of this "volume-interaction" thang, then is necessary. I'm still learning.

Edit: Which, by the way, just gave me a great idea. Film at eleven. :laugh2:

 

[dr.barlo]

Re: Ok Artie how do I fix this one?

Edit: Which, by the way, just gave me a great idea. Film at eleven. :laugh2:

:laugh2:

Right on!

B

 

[idsnowdog]

Re: Ok Artie how do I fix this one?

Well I tried the wiring and it kind of works. The tone control still isn't totaly out of the loop for the humbucker unless the 250k volume pot is at 0. I think I might need a 500k pot for the tone because the 250k tone still rolls off too much of the high end. Originaly I had a 1 meg for the tone.

If anyone is wondering the guitar has a Dimarzio Megadrive at the bridge. Jackson single coil in the middle and a Dimarzio Virtual Vintage 2.0 single coil at the neck.

I also made a brass baseplate for the middle single coil and it really improves the sound. Nice chunk, twang and articulation. I was thinking about selling some on ebay.

Snowdog

 

[Kent S.]

Re: Ok Artie how do I fix this one?

Artie, yeah I am talking about the first (in your list) kinda wiring. Well I never bothered to check out the second type. Maybe I should, yet did not have any problems with losing all the output in the middle position when turning the vol of either one to 0. Because I simply use 10-5 (audio) on my vol.

B

Both forms of wiring are fine, just with the traditional wiring at the extreme low side (like trying to volume roll a pup in) when one control is at zero it will shut both pups off. The down side to the alternate wiring is that it will change the pups tone greatly the lower it ( that pup's volume control) is set(increasing the load upon the pup(s). Also, it tends to change the way the volume taper reacts ... not physically, but it does nonetheless; single coils((read pups with lower impedances)) are effected a bit less by this also.