OK, so, Self contained PA's/Acoustic amps?

[krankguitarist]

I know I started a thread before on acoustic amps, but plenty of people recommended a PA system instead, so here I am with a compromise thread.

I got a Variax acoustic, and I'm diggin it, but my old 68 fender showman just ain't cuttin it for the acoustic jams.

So, I'm lookin for something new. I'd like to eventually start playing in coffee shops and such, and I hate setting up multiple power supplies/mixers/cables and all that crap. If I plug in, and something does not work, I am liable to break it.

So, I'd like to see about getting something with a minimum of two channels (one for guitar, one for vocals), and plenty of power. Preferably relatively light-weight too.

I've been looking at a few models of acoustic amps....namely the Fishman Loudbox performer and 100, the Roland AC-90, the Hartke AC150, and the Carvin AG100D. Lots of these have got pretty small speakers, though...like 1x8", 4x5", I'm afraid that they won't give me the "oomph" that I want in the lower frequencies.

There's not many places around here that actively stock acoustic amps, though. At least not beyond the standard "fender acoustasonic 30 and JR" models.

If I go the PA route, I'd like for it to be self-contained. Minimal setup required. Oh, and I'd like to be able to get it for under 500 bucks used. Any ideas?

 

[Fusion1]

Re: OK, so, Self contained PA's/Acoustic amps?

How about a small PA (I know not self contained but small none-the-less). If you can find a used pne a Stageworks LG-4 would work well for you. 4 channels and it was under $200 new and it was Sam Ash's house brand. I am currently looking for one for myself as a friend has one and I have used it and it works well for vocals, keyboards, and even ran my J-Station through it and it sounded good.

 

[tone4days]

Re: OK, so, Self contained PA's/Acoustic amps?

i have an ag100d and like it very much .. it is a 1x12" plus dome tweeter .. it always sounded pretty good with the piezo output of my guitar going into one channel ... i did have a reliability issue with it where it was cutting out on me .. but i sprayed the heck out of it with some contact cleaner and it hasnt acted up since

id i had to do it over again, i'd get a powered PA speaker with a built in mixer to take 2 or 3 sources .. just hit it with AC power and your mic and guitar inputs and you are sorted .. lotsa good brands and they are getting high power with light weight these days with high quality class d amps

good luck
t4d

 

[krankguitarist]

Re: OK, so, Self contained PA's/Acoustic amps?

i have an ag100d and like it very much .. it is a 1x12" plus dome tweeter .. it always sounded pretty good with the piezo output of my guitar going into one channel ... i did have a reliability issue with it where it was cutting out on me .. but i sprayed the heck out of it with some contact cleaner and it hasnt acted up since

id i had to do it over again, i'd get a powered PA speaker with a built in mixer to take 2 or 3 sources .. just hit it with AC power and your mic and guitar inputs and you are sorted .. lotsa good brands and they are getting high power with light weight these days with high quality class d amps

good luck
t4d

I had heard that this was a big problem with the AG100D, from MANY different users...seemed to be a pretty **** high fail rate on those. Somebody said that carvin fixed the problem about 3 years ago...but it's kept me from pulling the trigger on that one. Feature wise, it looks like exactly what I want on paper.

I've also heard a few reports of it being relatively quiet for a 100 watt amp, what's your take, Bill?

 

[krankguitarist]

Re: OK, so, Self contained PA's/Acoustic amps?

Something that just occurred to me, too, is that the Line 6 POD X3 can power a variax...has plenty of built-in effects, and works with more than one input (I.E. vocals, onboard vocal preamp models, etc). Perhaps I could look into getting that...and adding a powered speaker?

Hmmmmm...there's a possibility.

 

[Boogie Bill]

Re: OK, so, Self contained PA's/Acoustic amps?

You can find great deals on some of Peavey's older PA gear. A top-box head like the XR600C is a great start. It'll put out 310 watts into a 2 ohm load, and with six channels there's room for extra guitars and vocal mics--with full three-band EQ on each channel and a master 9-band graphic EQ. You can add an additional amp and EQ for monitors if you need them later--the XR600C has a monitor buss and terrific patching capabilities. There were new versions, some with eight channels, some with stereo power amps--but the basic XR600C is a real workhorse that will still out-perform many of the newer PA systems on the market today. I bought mine in 1991, and it has been so versatile and reliable that I simply can't imagine EVER selling this piece of gear.

Then, it is matter of selecting the right speaker. I have a pair of Peavey SP-2As that I used for years with the XR600C as a basic club system with a rock band. I't a little under powered by today's standards for that application, but it did the job. The SP-2As are a single 15" Black Widow speaker with a RX-22 horn driver. They are bi-amp ready, and pole-mountable; though they weigh in at a hefty 75 lbs.

Of course, there are smaller speakers that will work. If you want a monitor-style wedge (which can be very unobtrusive in certain situations), there's the ever-popular Peavey 112HS monitor. (There are square cabinet version of these speakers if you prefer.)These feature a 12" Scorpion speaker (with a Black Widow option) and a pair of Motorola piezo drivers feeding a horn for the top end. A pair of these work great for acoustic guitar and vocal, and with the XR600C can handle a whole band at coffee-shop levels. Peavey made a wide selection of small PA speakers--from the 112HS monitors to the 118 Internationals, so you should be able to find something that can work for you. The stuff I'm talking about can usually be found dirt cheap, but it's good stuff. Used Peavey gear offers great value.

Beware though--I'd stay away from some of the really small systems from companies like Kustom, Nady, etc.; or the Fender Passport or Peavey Escort. They simply don't have either 1) enough power, 2) enough channels, 3) enough patching capability, or 4) enough EQ to do the job. The one that comes closest to working well is the Yamaha STAGEPAS 500. It's a great small PA though, and it might fit your needs--but you'll probably be over budget, and without the flexibility to allow for future growth.

Even if you wanted to start with one of the small Mackie or Behringer mixers and add a power speaker like the Behringer B300 Ultrawave, Peavey Impulse, JBL EON or Mackie SRM450-you'll still be on the road to starting to build a modular PA system that you'll be able to use for many years.

I really like the idea of the small PA system better than a dedicated acoustic guitar amp. With a PA, you have a modular system that can grow with you as your needs change. Start with an XR600C and a pair of wedges. Upgrade to a Mackie 808S with more power and more channels and add bigger speakers for Front Of House PA Mains. Hang onto your XR600C and use the Graphic EQ and its power amp to drive your wedges for monitors. A small PA with good EQ and flexible patching capabilities is a wise choice for this application, and allows for future growth.

Good luck with your choices.

Bill

 

[krankguitarist]

Re: OK, so, Self contained PA's/Acoustic amps?

It's funny that you mention the XR600C...

Because I already have one! :X

Though, admittedly, I've got it paired with a crappy pair of TOA speakers...had it in the garage for a while and forgot about it, hell, I think I might grab it and give it a go in my room...see how it sounds with the variax! It'll work for short-term at least .

 

[zzmoore]

Re: OK, so, Self contained PA's/Acoustic amps?

Maybe check into a powered monitor from Yorkville, JBL, etc.
Good Luck

 

[krankguitarist]

Re: OK, so, Self contained PA's/Acoustic amps?

Well, that Peavey works decently.

Better than the fender, but not quite *there*. Them speaker cabinets are crap, and the built-in reverb is a big, crashy, noisy mess.

This whole X3 Live/powered monitor thing is sounding better and better though...would make for a very simple setup, and a decent amount of power. Expandable to stereo as well if I choose to do that somewhere down the line. The X3 could double as a recording tool...I've given up a bit on the idea of making great-sounding recordings, so some simple line6 demos will work well enough for me.

eh, if only I had money. That'd certainly be helpful. Just checked my bank account and I'm friggin dry. Dammit.

 

[Boogie Bill]

Re: OK, so, Self contained PA's/Acoustic amps?

Remember that the reverb on the XR600 is "voiced" for vocals. (Try not to use "surf" reverb levels on acoustic guitar--it sounds fake and lame.) You're going to need to run your Master efx send and efx return fairly high while keeping the individual channel efx levels pretty low. If you really need more reverb than that, you can add a better delay unit, either using it before the channel input, or patched into the effects send. And you can always use a guitar EQ like the BOSS GE-7 between the guitar and the input of the XR600C.

The other thing that is critical for good acoustic tone is a clean input. Keep your individual channel gain levels below your MASTER VOLUME control. Unity gain on the XR600C's MASTER is at 7 (or about 2:00 on the dial). If you use an EQ like the BOSS in front, keep its gain at unity or below so you're not over-driving the input.

The TOA speakers are probably not helping. No matter how much EQ you run into an amp, if the speakers aren't up to snuff, your sound will suffer. I'd bet you can dig around in the classifieds, Craigslist or the pawnshops and come up with some small Peavey wedges or a small column speaker (like their 1210HS) for less than $250--and probably way less. Take your guitar in, take the XR600 and a good SPEAKER cable; and put a bunch of speakers to the test. You'll know when you've found the right ones. I've played some that sounded better for voice, while others made the guitar spectacular. And then you find the "baby bear" models--the ones that make you go, "Aaah!"

I've used Martin guitars for years with the XR600C--using just a Shure SM56 or 57 to mic it with. I now have a Martin D-28 with a Fishman Ellipse Blend pickup and preamp, and a Taylor 710CE with a Fishman preamp. Both guitars sound really good with the XR600C, whether I'm using my 112HS wedges, my Impulse 200s or my SP-2s.

Trust me, the XR600C is a great start to building a system, but you probably need to upgrade your speakers. You may need to do a little digging, and even a little waiting, but something will come along.

And if you can't get a good live tone from this system, then you need to re-think the Variac Acoustic Guitar, IMHO.

Good luck!

Bill

 

[krankguitarist]

Re: OK, so, Self contained PA's/Acoustic amps?

I hear ya, but I'd still prefer to grab something self-contained. This setup works decently as my PA for vocal use...but If I'm gonna be grabbing something to use for solo acoustic/vocal performance I'm going to want something a little lighter, in less pieces. Plus...I'd *really* like it to be expandable to stereo operation, which the peavey is not. It'll work well for the time being though, for playing the thing at home.

So the X3 live/powered monitor option is looking pretty good. Gotta do more research on powered monitors now...

 

[everdrone]

Re: OK, so, Self contained PA's/Acoustic amps?

Id get two used JBL eon G2 15" monitors and be done with it. They are powered, mixer is included, and they sound awesome for guitar and vocals. Mine sounded great!

 

[Boogie Bill]

Re: OK, so, Self contained PA's/Acoustic amps?

If you just want a really cool, cheap, little, lightweight amp for acoustic guitar--check out Guitar Center's Acoustic Control amps. Take a long look at the AB-50. It's designed for Acoustic Bass, but works well for AG, too. I use a pair to amplify my Alesis SR-16 in stereo.

Bill

 

[Aceman]

Re: OK, so, Self contained PA's/Acoustic amps?

Hey Krank - you going unplugged too?

I was really thinking passport. But Boggie Bill brings up some great points.

I still dig my zoom acoustic FX. I'll use that as a DI into the PA. I just like the way it makes my Ovation sound. My goal is to craft a good tone for a given song, not amazing acoustic tone. So I can get a rich jumbo sound, an old guitar, something soft, and maybe something twangy with a few subtle patches.

How much juice do I really need?

 

[75lespaul]

Re: OK, so, Self contained PA's/Acoustic amps?

Hey Krank - you going unplugged too?

I was really thinking passport. But Boggie Bill brings up some great points.

I still dig my zoom acoustic FX. I'll use that as a DI into the PA. I just like the way it makes my Ovation sound. My goal is to craft a good tone for a given song, not amazing acoustic tone. So I can get a rich jumbo sound, an old guitar, something soft, and maybe something twangy with a few subtle patches.

How much juice do I really need?

It has to go to "11"










Sorry, it's all I had.

 

[razorblade]

Re: OK, so, Self contained PA's/Acoustic amps?

I'd check out the Bose L1 systems...It's perfect for a solo acoustic gig.

 

[krankguitarist]

Re: OK, so, Self contained PA's/Acoustic amps?

I'd check out the Bose L1 systems...It's perfect for a solo acoustic gig.

Ahhahahahaha...ahahahahahaha.....lolerz....

Sorry bout that. Yeah, I have no doubt that one of those would be pretty cool. But I also have no doubt that I will not be able to find one within the 500 dollar price range that I had originally posted . Not even their L1 compact comes close.

For that kind of money I'd rather get a nice full-blown PA.

 

[razorblade]

Re: OK, so, Self contained PA's/Acoustic amps?

Missed that 500.00 qualifier at the end there...No wonder I cracked you up.

 

[krankguitarist]

Re: OK, so, Self contained PA's/Acoustic amps?

Missed that 500.00 qualifier at the end there...No wonder I cracked you up.

S'all good in the hood, man. Truth told I'd love to have one of those things. But just like most other bose products....mannnn...the name alone seems to jack up the price about 200%

 

[Hellion]

Re: OK, so, Self contained PA's/Acoustic amps?

If all you're going to run through it is an acoustic guitar and vocals, you might consider looking at a Fender Passport system. They make a P150 model that puts out 150 watts, looks like a suitcase when it's packed up and is one of the most transparent systems I've ever run through. We've been using ours HARD over the last 4 years and it's still going strong. Indoors, outdoors, it looks small, but it packs a helluva wallop. And...you can run it in stereo if you like.