OK WHAT'S THE DEAL HERE?

[jackson111]

I have an electrical engineer for a friend and he doesn't understand why I use tube amps. he explained that a transistor and a tube function exactly the same other then transistors are more compact and way more effiecient. If this is true why do tube amps sound better then SS amps (well atleast to me). he told me it must be the rest of the amp circuit that makes it sound muddy or unclear at higher volumes. so whats the deal

 

[Lampy H]

Re: OK WHAT'S THE DEAL HERE?

Tubes and transistors clip in different ways.

 

[Chickenwings]

Re: OK WHAT'S THE DEAL HERE?

trust your ears.
He wouldn't understand because he is not a musician.

 

[Empty Pockets]

Re: OK WHAT'S THE DEAL HERE?

"more compact" and "way more efficient" are the offensive phrases here.

tube amps sound bigger and warmer and have a more responsive touch because the electricity is glowing around in big hot tubes instead of being choked inside a cold little circuit. tube amps sound better because they have an intangible, out-of-control sound that is harder to replicate with solidstate technology.

He can do math problems and write formulas all day as to why a solid state amp SHOULD sound just as good as a tube amp, but until they do, they don't. :smokin:

 

[Snake Aces]

Re: OK WHAT'S THE DEAL HERE?

trust your ears.
He wouldn't understand because he is not a musician.

+1 to this.

Maybe I am drinking the kool-aid but I would rather play on no amp than play on a SS amp for electric guitar. I love SS Gallien-Krueger bass amps (bass needs clean tones with lots of headroom) but it's been 10 years since I owned a SS guitar amp (even that was a hybrid Marshall AVT 50). There is definitely a huge responsiveness factor. IMO a good tube amp exposes everything you do as a player, both good and bad. Because of this, a good tube amp can help make you a better player if you are listening with a self-critiquing ear. I have never played on a SS or hybrid SS guitar amp that does this.

 

[DankStar]

Re: OK WHAT'S THE DEAL HERE?

You tell him to stick his slide rule where the sun don't shine! <fade in canned laughter>

 

[80's_Metal]

Re: OK WHAT'S THE DEAL HERE?

You tell him to stick his slide rule where the sun don't shine! <fade in canned laughter>

ha ha ha ha ha well played sir!

 

[BrianS.]

Re: OK WHAT'S THE DEAL HERE?

ask him about slew rate.

 

[crusty philtrum]

Re: OK WHAT'S THE DEAL HERE?

You tell him to stick his slide rule where the sun don't shine! <fade in canned laughter>

On many or most levels, he and most other pure techs is correct. This is why we no longer make tube televisions, radios, calculators or almost any other electronic devices using valves. But, as in other areas of life, 'technically best' is not always ideal for some applications.

Ask him about even-order harmonic emphasis (tubes) as opposed to odd-order harmonic emphasis (s/s) in terms of audio and what can be heard. Or about the way tube clean approaches the clipping point v's the way transistors approach the clipping point, things that can be seen clearly on an oscilloscope.

Reminds me of a time when an old tech in a vintage radio shop told me how the Vox AC30 was a very inefficient way of obtaining 30 watts of power. Of course he was correct, but ... any of the more technically correct and efficient methods would not come close to having the sought-after musicality of the inefficent AC30 design.

This is why a good amp tech should also be a decent player, or at least have a good ear for guitar tone, and thus some understanding of why good/great guitar amps are not necessarily the best technical way of attaining specific power levels or the most efficient from the technical standpoint.

 

[Matt42]

Re: OK WHAT'S THE DEAL HERE?

he explained that a transistor and a tube function exactly the same other then transistors are more compact and way more effiecient.

That's it right there. The inefficiency is why tube amps sound better.

 

[Johtosotku]

Re: OK WHAT'S THE DEAL HERE?

Like said, it's all about the inefficiency. Guitar amps are not meant to purely amplify the guitar signal, for that purpose solid state amps are better. Tube amps are preferred because they color the tone in addition to the amplification.

That doesn't mean that solid state amps can't be engineered to color the tone as tube amps do. They haven't been able to do it at the same pleasing level yet. That is a matter of R&D and funding. There also isn't really that much practical need for it, as we already have tube amps.

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: OK WHAT'S THE DEAL HERE?

He suffers from an all too common conceptual disease among engineers. They can't understand how something that is not theoretically/technically "better" could actually be better at fulfilling its intended purpose. He doesn't understand the concept of building something for a specific special purpose – can't fathom that what is "good" and what is "bad" are not absolutes, but depend on the criteria that will be used for judgment. With musical instrument amps, the criteria are not often maximum efficiency, minimum size, low weight, etc. The criteria are that the amp sounds and behaves in certain ways. If that is achieved even without it being as efficient, small, or lightweight as possible, then the design is a success.

 

[B2D]

Re: OK WHAT'S THE DEAL HERE?

I have an electrical engineer for a friend and he doesn't understand why I use tube amps. he explained that a transistor and a tube function exactly the same other then transistors are more compact and way more effiecient. If this is true why do tube amps sound better then SS amps (well atleast to me). he told me it must be the rest of the amp circuit that makes it sound muddy or unclear at higher volumes. so whats the deal

The deal is that tubes - despite their power consumption, limited lifespan, fragility, and maintenance needs - sound better.

You are a musician and sound is what counts. Not numbers on a piece of paper.

A transistor and a tube were designed for the same purpose but they do not achieve the same result. The same way in that a '60 Corvette and a Prius will both get you from point A to B, but the Corvette will do the job in a distinctly different manner than the Prius, if you catch my drift.

/end thread.

If you have to explain it beyond that, he'll never get it.

 

[PFDarkside]

Re: OK WHAT'S THE DEAL HERE?

No need to denigrate us Engineers, we have logical minds that respond well to facts and rational explanations.

Tubes and transistors clip in different ways.

ask him about slew rate.

What these gentlemen are saying is true, although in and of themselves, these statements won't help your cause. An Electrical Engineer is taught to minimize distortion and maximize efficiency. This is absolutely the case for Hi-Fi music reproduction, where the goal is to reproduce the source material as accurately as possible. To this end, transistor based amplifiers are more accurate, power efficient, and mass efficient. Everything surrounding a Hi-Fi amplification system is tailored to be neutral with even response from 20Hz to 20KHz. (Speakers, cabinets, amplifiers, DACs, etc.) Transistor Hi-Fi amps are operating in the linear range, minimizing distortion, which is the goal.

Tube guitar amplifiers are NOT operating in the linear range, we want them to clip. This is where Lampy's and Brian's statements come into play. When you are operating an amplifier outside of the linear range, the clipping characteristics of vacuum tubes is quite different than transistors. Solid State devices hard clip the signal, tube devices soft clip at onset of clipping. This can be seen on an oscilloscope, it's not theoretical, or one of those "mojo" things, it's right there in black and white (or green ). Additionally, we use other components in the signal chain to alter the frequency response of the guitar. Guitar speakers are heavily midrage biased, much less treble and bass response than Hi-Fi, guitar cabinets are meant to resonate, not be inert. Heck even guitar pedals are messing with phase and echo and input gain to change the sound.

Interestingly enough, most of our tube guitar amps can trace their lineage back to the Fender amps of the 50's, which were lifted right out of the RCA documents of the 30's, published in order to sell the same tubes in the diagrams! These circuits were the Hi-Fi amplifiers of the era, but not very good in modern standards. As technology progressed, the ability to more evenly reproduce sound got better and better, and amp design got further and further away from those original circuits. The interesting thing about guitar amps is that they actually become part of the instrument. An electric guitar is not a complete instrument, you need the amp to complete it. We want the amp operating in non linear range, adding slight distortion and harmonic breakup, even when we play "clean". Simply plug your guitar into your Hi-Hi amp's input and see how bad it sounds.

I am interested in the statement "a transistor and a tube function exactly the same" because that is NOT the case. In fact, unless he is over 55 or so, his education (and mine too) included exactly "0" on tube amplification devices. There's just no reason, when the industries you will be entering have had no use of tubes for decades.

 

[MrTondo]

Re: OK WHAT'S THE DEAL HERE?

There is not something like two truths, it cannot be that tubes and transistors do the exact same thing and sound different. That is because they do not function the same! They were designed for the same purpose (amplify signal), but do so in different ways and therefore do not operate the same way at all times. As an engineer one could understand it quite easily actually, it's really not that difficult with a background in physics.

First, when we usually say SS is too direct sounding, that is because the electrons only need to travel like microns in transistors when they open and close to amplify. Therefore a transistor responds way faster than a valve, where the electrons need to travel mms (factor 1000 more). Also a transistor is way more linear in response than a tube. Basically it recreates the source signal faster and more accurately. And in general that is the purpose of an amplifier of signal.

Yet we do not want the signal of our guitar to be heard as it is, just plug in your guitar to the PA to check. It does not sound good! This is where tubes, guitar amps, speakers, transformers etc. come in. They alter the sound that comes out of the guitar-pickups until it is pleasing, because the guitar by itself sucks . So we introduce all kinds of non-linearities slower transient responses etc. Weird unbalanced EQin by the circuit and speakers and finally we are pleased. Especially since overdriving the tubes sounds good too, amazing!

If the purpose was to recreate the exact tone of the guitar or pickups, we failed badly. However it is not and it will never be the purpose of an electric guitar. I guess when you are an engineer, that is something you will understand (hopefully).

 

[Oinkus]

Re: OK WHAT'S THE DEAL HERE?

I love my tubes but there are plenty of great sounding , responsive SS amps guys.

 

[uOpt]

Re: OK WHAT'S THE DEAL HERE?

I have an electrical engineer for a friend and he doesn't understand why I use tube amps. he explained that a transistor and a tube function exactly the same other then transistors are more compact and way more effiecient. If this is true why do tube amps sound better then SS amps (well atleast to me). he told me it must be the rest of the amp circuit that makes it sound muddy or unclear at higher volumes. so whats the deal

In addition to what has been said about tubes behaving differently at the edge...

... there is also the issue of the transformers, especially the output transformers. They have a major impact on sound. Guitar amps often have deliberately wimpy output transformers so that they saturate earlier.

Regardless of whether they are wimpy or not, the output transformer (which the transistor amp doesn't have) is high impedance output. It goes into the same speakers. This has a major impact, because the low impedance transistor amp will "put a brake" on the speaker when the signal goes away. It stops the speaker actively. The tube amp with its high impedance output will let the speaker "swing more" when the signal stops.

That is important, because it further enriches the sound and loosens it up. That is what guitar amplification is all about. You need to add to the base from the solid body guitar, otherwise it sounds dry and dead.

 

[IM4Tone]

Re: OK WHAT'S THE DEAL HERE?

:smack: Oh no, not another tube versus ss argument. :argue: It usually gets emotional with someone calling names!!

You tell him to stick his slide rule where the sun don't shine! <fade in canned laughter>

Wow, that's a blast from the past. Many recent engineering grads don't even know what a slide rule is! :laugh2: I think mine is somewhere around here in storage. AND when i went to school, tube technology was still taught!

 

[Snake Aces]

Re: OK WHAT'S THE DEAL HERE?

:smack: Oh no, not another tube versus ss argument. :argue: It usually gets emotional with someone calling names!!

So far it's been peaceful and informative.

 

[ehdwuld]

Re: OK WHAT'S THE DEAL HERE?

When my EE asked the same question I told him that the signal behaves differently as the tube heats up
This causes the tube"bloom"

So I suppose the inefficiency is what I would go with

*(Sent from my durned phone!)*