OK WHAT'S THE DEAL HERE?

Re: OK WHAT'S THE DEAL HERE?

Empty Pockets said:
[T]ube amps sound bigger and warmer and have a more responsive touch...

He can do math problems and write formulas all day as to why a solid state amp SHOULD sound just as good as a tube amp, but until they do, they don't. :smokin:
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Most definitely this! I've heard some great tube amps and some great solid state amps, but there is a reason tube amps are still widely used and were not killed off by solid state amps. IMO, go with you ears and not some formula/equation
 
Re: OK WHAT'S THE DEAL HERE?

As others have described in more detail, he is absolutely correct in that transistors are far more efficient than tubes. But what he fails to reailze is that these inificiencies make for a nicer sounding amplifier than one that would be had with more efficient SS devices. I'd additionally argue that it is how these ineficiencies interact with the circuits they occupy, and the kinds of circuits that tubes and their inefficiences lend themselves to, that contribute to the pleasing sound of a tube amp as well.
 
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Re: OK WHAT'S THE DEAL HERE?

"More efficient" isn't what you want ... Much of the sound from electric instruments is created by resistance not efficiency in the circuit. If he's an electrical engineer he should understand that

If it was about "efficiency" then take the resistors out. Lol
 
Re: OK WHAT'S THE DEAL HERE?

Guitar amps are routinely operated outside of original spec. They don't just amplify, they radically change the sound of the instrument by pushing the tubes well out of their linear amplification range. The smaller, more efficient devices need to be designed to emulate this characteristic as they don't produce the same sound when they replace tubes in a circuit.

Modelling is getting pretty damned good these days. It might well be that proper design of digital and solid state stuff can effectively emulate tubes now, but guitarists are pretty conservative about accepting new stuff. Give it another 10-20 years.
 
Re: OK WHAT'S THE DEAL HERE?

There's no need for science bashing or musician bashing. It just comes down to different needs met by components that clip very differently. Most of us simply prefer the much different clipping of tubes in the amp/radio applications. I like tubes in an amp (and some solid state ones), but I would never want a computer that runs on tubes. That would be a nightmare.
 
Re: OK WHAT'S THE DEAL HERE?

I sort of agree with your tech, because wiht modern gear , the modern tubes are not only dangerous, but they do not sound much better if at all better than good solid state.
In essence, Tube is dead, not because of the modern circuits , but because there are simply no more good tubes/valves, or at least any that would makeit a necessity to forgo solid state for the sake of a valve circuit.'
In older amps, its a it different because of the older non ROHS Iron, and all the old best sounding Caps and resistors, but even an old amp souinds completely neutered wiht new stock tubes, plus they are dangerous- they are not reliable can blow your amp !!
 
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Re: OK WHAT'S THE DEAL HERE?

They haven't been able to do it at the same pleasing level yet.
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There also isn't really that much practical need for it, as we already have tube amps.
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Maybe veering a bit off track here, but I'd like to say that I don't agree with these two statements.

First, I have heard, and play or have played solid state amps that to me sound as good as some tube amps. My current rig is a Tech 21 FlyRig5, which is an analog solid state "tube amp simulator". I have been very happy with not only the tone, but the "feel" of this device. It also "takes pedals well". Every time I play through it, I'm just completely satisfied with the tone. I don't miss tubes when I'm playing through it.

Second, there is absolutely a practical need for great sounding solid state amps. Even when very well made, solid state amps are generally less expensive than tube amps (Quilter amps being the exception!). Those of us who can't justify the upfront cost...not to mention maintenance costs...of tube amps deserve good tone, too!

Another important consideration for some, myself included, is weight. I know, there's probably 100 guys reading this and rolling their eyes, but this is a real concern for a lot of people. My FlyRig5 is a pedal. All I need is to plug into PA and I'm ready to go. If I don't have a PA, I have an 8 watt power amp that fits into the palm of my hand that I can plug into a speaker cab (plenty loud for quite a few situations). Or I can use a powered speaker like a Mackie Thump or similar that is powered with a Class D power amp that weights around 20lbs and is rated at 1000 watts output power. Contrast that with my Traynor YRM-1 head/cab setup. Head probably weighs 30lbs or more and the cab is that much or more (oversize 212). I worked on a 100watt Peavey Duel 212 the other day that had to weight 75lbs or more!

Anyway, I hope you see my point.
 
Re: OK WHAT'S THE DEAL HERE?

BrianS. said:
Maybe veering a bit off track here, but I'd like to say that I don't agree with these two statements.

First, I have heard, and play or have played solid state amps that to me sound as good as some tube amps. My current rig is a Tech 21 FlyRig5, which is an analog solid state "tube amp simulator". I have been very happy with not only the tone, but the "feel" of this device. It also "takes pedals well". Every time I play through it, I'm just completely satisfied with the tone. I don't miss tubes when I'm playing through it.

Second, there is absolutely a practical need for great sounding solid state amps. Even when very well made, solid state amps are generally less expensive than tube amps (Quilter amps being the exception!). Those of us who can't justify the upfront cost...not to mention maintenance costs...of tube amps deserve good tone, too!

Another important consideration for some, myself included, is weight. I know, there's probably 100 guys reading this and rolling their eyes, but this is a real concern for a lot of people. My FlyRig5 is a pedal. All I need is to plug into PA and I'm ready to go. If I don't have a PA, I have an 8 watt power amp that fits into the palm of my hand that I can plug into a speaker cab (plenty loud for quite a few situations). Or I can use a powered speaker like a Mackie Thump or similar that is powered with a Class D power amp that weights around 20lbs and is rated at 1000 watts output power. Contrast that with my Traynor YRM-1 head/cab setup. Head probably weighs 30lbs or more and the cab is that much or more (oversize 212). I worked on a 100watt Peavey Duel 212 the other day that had to weight 75lbs or more!

Anyway, I hope you see my point.
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I'll elaborate on the points I made.

The first line you quoted was a bit of a generalization. I love some SS stuff myself, and I'm really tempted by the FlyRig.

The second line was originally meant to be related to the sentence before it, and as such is about the business side of things. Most amp manufacturers develop and sell amps that people buy, and tube amps are generally preferred in the high-end amp department. Apart from companies like Tech21, I doubt that most amp companies spend big parts of their R&D budget on solid state. That is one of the reasons that SS is left behind. If, for example, Bill Gates decided that he would spend his entire fortune on a new line of state of the art SS amps, I bet they would sound excellent.
 
Re: OK WHAT'S THE DEAL HERE?

"Better" is a subjective term. I love the sound of tube amps. I also love Jon Schaffer's sound and he uses a Roland JC-120. Sometimes ss works better for a tight sizzelly modern metal sound.
 
Re: OK WHAT'S THE DEAL HERE?

ItsaBass said:
He suffers from an all too common conceptual disease among engineers. They can't understand how something that is not theoretically/technically "better" could actually be better at fulfilling its intended purpose. He doesn't understand the concept of building something for a specific special purpose – can't fathom that what is "good" and what is "bad" are not absolutes, but depend on the criteria that will be used for judgment. With musical instrument amps, the criteria are not often maximum efficiency, minimum size, low weight, etc. The criteria are that the amp sounds and behaves in certain ways. If that is achieved even without it being as efficient, small, or lightweight as possible, then the design is a success.
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Just to reinforce your point, a modern Nissan Altima is probably a "better" car than '67 327 Chevelle, but guess which one I'd rather drive.

PFDarkside said:
What these gentlemen are saying is true, although in and of themselves, these statements won't help your cause. An Electrical Engineer is taught to minimize distortion and maximize efficiency. This is absolutely the case for Hi-Fi music reproduction, where the goal is to reproduce the source material as accurately as possible. To this end, transistor based amplifiers are more accurate, power efficient, and mass efficient. Everything surrounding a Hi-Fi amplification system is tailored to be neutral with even response from 20Hz to 20KHz. (Speakers, cabinets, amplifiers, DACs, etc.) Transistor Hi-Fi amps are operating in the linear range, minimizing distortion, which is the goal.
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On this point, I don't think it's so much SS vs tube as it is the design of the circuit. There have been some pretty amazing hi-fi tube amps made. The old Dynaco MK-70, and some amps from McIntosh and Audio Research come to mind.
 
Re: OK WHAT'S THE DEAL HERE?

ArtieToo said:
On this point, I don't think it's so much SS vs tube as it is the design of the circuit. There have been some pretty amazing hi-fi tube amps made. The old Dynaco MK-70, and some amps from McIntosh and Audio Research come to mind.
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Great point. Of course, those are high power designs with massive transformers, operating well within the linear range. Us guitarists like to operate past that range, well into saturation of preamp, phase inverter, power amp and output transformer. Even "clean", there is a lot more distortion than a hi-fi designer would begin to accept.

Another BIG thing, is that we all like those less than ideal tones that happened to have been produced with the tube amps of the 50's and 60's. That heritage is a strong pull for us guitarists!
 
Re: OK WHAT'S THE DEAL HERE?

The first amplifiers were made with tubes because that's what there was. Period. There was no grand consortium who convened and decided that tubes were awesomer than transistors.

By the time transistor amps were even available in a scale and format that could be considered competition for a tube amp, tubes had a 40+ year head start.

The simple facts are:
Tubes sound "better" because those who believe that have specific reasons for believing it.
SS sounds just as good as tubes because those who believe that have specific reasons for believing it.
Tubes suck because those who believe that have specific reasons for believing it.
SS sucks because those who believe that have specific reasons for believing it.
Hybrids suck because those who believe that have specific reasons for believing it.
Modelers suck because those who believe that have specific reasons for believing it.

It's got nothing to do with science or math, it's all in the heads of the individuals.
 
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Re: OK WHAT'S THE DEAL HERE?

FWIW, I have several devices where using the tube variant or option makes a huge difference and others where it does not.

Headphone amps: my tube amp sounds like the solid state ones.

My Korg Triton Extreme: huge sound change when engaging the tube.

My Korg/Vox Tonelab: very, very different from a Line6 unit or the Boss.

My mic preamps are those ART tube preamps. Unless I engage the various sound coloring options they sound the same as a good mixer mic input.
 
Re: OK WHAT'S THE DEAL HERE?

jackson111 said:
I have an electrical engineer for a friend and he doesn't understand why I use tube amps. he explained that a transistor and a tube function exactly the same other then transistors are more compact and way more effiecient. If this is true why do tube amps sound better then SS amps (well atleast to me). he told me it must be the rest of the amp circuit that makes it sound muddy or unclear at higher volumes. so whats the deal
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It's actually those inefficiencies of tubes that give them their aural characteristics.

For all technical purposes, ALL output of a tube amp is distorted, in the sense that a tube simply can't 100% replicate the input ever. All out distortion is rounder and more pleasing to the ear whereas a transistor will have a very sharp-waved distortion.
 
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