PA for BAnd - serious discussion

[MetalManiac]

Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

We use a Behringer Eurorack

And Joyo pedals..I wouldn't advocate either one of those unless your budget is next to nil.It sounds like I am being mean, but really, that stuff is not roadworthy, and is made with bottom of the barrel engineering and components . It might work just fine, for awhile, it but I would aim higher if at all possible. Think good used gear. USA Peavey at the very least.

 

[Matt42]

Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

And Joyo pedals..I wouldn't advocate either one of those unless your budget is next to nil.It sounds like I am being mean, but really, that stuff is not roadworthy, and is made with bottom of the barrel engineering and components . It might work just fine, for awhile, it but I would aim higher if at all possible. Think good used gear. USA Peavey at the very least.

I don't know man. I've been gigging my Joyo Sweet Baby for 3 years and it hasn't let me down yet. I keep saying I'm going to replace the Sweet Baby, but since it keeps working, I keep using it. Once I get my new amp delivered, it's going to get shelved, simply because it doesn't really do much with that amp, but it's been every bit as strong as my MXR pedals over the years. Stronger, in fact, since I've had to have MXR warranty my Custom Modified Badass Overdrive twice in the same span of time.

This Eurorack is going or 4 or 5 years without failing, but I'll straight up admit I hate that thing. It's OK for what it does, but the EQ controls aren't what I would like to have in a board, and the effects are marginal at best. Were it up to me that particular piece of equipment would have been shelved in favor of a Mackie or Peavey 16 Channel mixer long ago. Unfortunately, it's not, even though I'm the one that runs the damn board. My band has asked me several times what we could do to improve our sound and I've pointed to that board, but no one will chip in to help me replace it with something nicer. And since I'm moving soon, I don't feel like splurging myself.

 

[Aceman]

Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

Yeah - for a metal band with thumping bass and drums, I was thinking 15's…

But I really think I have to go powered speakers. Too easy anymore not to…

Bigger than I'd like for acoustic, but never a bad thing.

 

[Aceman]

Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

Great post Bill….

I hate these threads, simply because this is such complex issue. I have a lot of experience, but it is hard to know where to start.

The first thing to get is....the knowledge, and I can't stress this enough. Read every book, website, article, white paper you can find. Peavey, Carvin, Yamaha and Mackie all have information on what to buy and how to use it. An idiot won't have a problem making $50,000 worth of gear sound like crap; the guy with decent gear and some knowledge can sound awesome.

Thus the thread

You can buy cheaply, but don't buy cheap crap. Don't forget to budget for cables, connectors, stands, cases, and a myriad of other junk you'll need. Used can be a good way to go, if you know what you're doing.

Yep

Think modular.

Always - like 1 big 15 for acoustic solo, or two for the big band plus subs

Two camps, power speakers vs. separate amps. Time to decide.

Power speakers. Done.

PA is all about clean, non-distorted power and HEADROOM.

As opposed to the opposite for guitar….

How big are the rooms you'll be playing in?

2-300??? I'd hire for bigger.

 

[jeremy]

Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

so a pair of powered 15's and subs minimum for mains and for monitors probably 12's, but you could run two 12's up front and a 10" with a small sub for the drummer if he wants kick in his monitor. 16 channel board with four to six aux sends.

i run an allen heath mixwizard 16:2 which is a great board all around but not digital. it has six aux sends which is great since i can have up to four monitor mixes and still have a sub send and fx send. if you are running all powered stuff you can run the subs and mains directly since the they usually have crossovers build in so dont need an aux send for that. how many monitor mixes do you want, is two enough? lots of fx on the vocals?

 

[SlyFoxx]

Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

Allen & Heath is step up from the typical offerings from Mackie and Peavey. I highly recommend their stuff. I have a GL series mixer and it's outstanding.

 

[Aceman]

Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

I'm all about the Peavey/Yamaha

 

[Diminished Triad]

Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

For maybe 5 years or so now I've worked with PA systems in concerts and almost daily with bands. My recommendation based upon budget and ease would be:
Mackie Board (I'd go 32 channel for many reasons)
1531 Mackie PA speakers
1801 Mackie Subwoofers
Mackie 450 speaker monitors
ALL POWERED
Get a 32 line snake and you will never go wrong.

These are nice sized mains and subs and you will be able to project a very nice sound without having to crank up smaller speakers which can be annoying for the audience members right in front of the speakers. If you get 4 mains/subs you can turn down your stage mains/subs even more and use side-fills halfway towards the back of the venue (about halfway towards the back of the room) and get great vocal sounds that way with zero feedback. In my opinion 18" subs are the only way to go if you want your audience to feel the bass and bass drum.

Most people find it was worth the money to invest in mains/subs and an overall great sound system. Mackie now has a digital board but you can survive with just the analog 32 channel board.

Have fun....and good luck!

 

[Aceman]

Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

SO basically, will any 15" powered main have the juice I need/want?


32 Snake - great rec!

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

IMO, there is a huge catch 22 with loud semi-amateur bands buying P.A.s: 1) Crappy ones are pretty much worthless. 2) It doesn't make financial sense to get a good one unless you are making good money playing out. 3) The places that pay good money already have P.A.s. way better than any small band can afford to buy.

P.A.s are great/essential for practice. They're great to have if you not only play, but organize and promote entire shows. But if you're playing venues in which you need to bring your own P.A. just to be able to pull off a set for even as much as $500, then you don't even come close to the gig being worthwhile, especially once you consider all the added labor of hauling, setting up, manning, and tearing down the thing each gig, paying a sound guy, etc. No way in hell I'd haul in a P.A. for a gig paying a penny less than $500 for a five-piece band.

So, I dunno. Renting an hourly space with P.A., or getting a less-than-gig-ready one just for practice might be the best route.

 

[jeremy]

Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

probably one gig a week the band needs a pa, sometimes more. figure the gig pays $100 a man for a four piece which is pretty typical. without a pa we'd be renting one or not doing the gig. i enjoy playing. do i need 20 guitars? no but i have em. do i need a pa? more than i need 20 guitars for sure

 

[aleclee]

Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

do i need 20 guitars? no but i have em. do i need a pa? more than i need 20 guitars for sure

Great way to frame the issue!

 

[Matt42]

Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

probably one gig a week the band needs a pa, sometimes more. figure the gig pays $100 a man for a four piece which is pretty typical. without a pa we'd be renting one or not doing the gig. i enjoy playing. do i need 20 guitars? no but i have em. do i need a pa? more than i need 20 guitars for sure

That's pretty much how I see it for my band. Plus, the type of places a country cover band plays in my town never have PA's. Or at least not good ones. Buying used, you can get a reasonable PA for 200-300 person rooms for between $1000-1500. Also, having that PA allows you to easily book weddings and conventions which pay A LOT more money (again, just basing this on my area, which is an admittedly weird area for music).

 

[Boogie Bill]

Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

For maybe 5 years or so now I've worked with PA systems in concerts and almost daily with bands. My recommendation based upon budget and ease would be:
Mackie Board (I'd go 32 channel for many reasons)
1531 Mackie PA speakers
1801 Mackie Subwoofers
Mackie 450 speaker monitors
ALL POWERED
Get a 32 line snake and you will never go wrong.

These are nice sized mains and subs and you will be able to project a very nice sound without having to crank up smaller speakers which can be annoying for the audience members right in front of the speakers. If you get 4 mains/subs you can turn down your stage mains/subs even more and use side-fills halfway towards the back of the venue (about halfway towards the back of the room) and get great vocal sounds that way with zero feedback. In my opinion 18" subs are the only way to go if you want your audience to feel the bass and bass drum.

Most people find it was worth the money to invest in mains/subs and an overall great sound system. Mackie now has a digital board but you can survive with just the analog 32 channel board.

Have fun....and good luck!

Got to admit, this would be a great system. But, with three 450's as monitors, mixer, speakers, subs, snake, and mic cables to connect the speakers, A.C. cords, EQs, compression, reverb and delay unit....you've just built a $7000--$8000 system. It will sound great, if you know how to run it, and it can be expanded, for bigger clubs.

Still, for the average bar band, that is a BIG chunk-'o-change for $100/man gigs. I know you can do good quality for less.

And a 32-channel board is HUGE. Unless you have backup singers, horns, two keyboard players, yards yadda yadda...you can probably get buy with 16 or 24 at the most.

My two cents...

Bill

 

[Boogie Bill]

Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

SO basically, will any 15" powered main have the juice I need/want?

NO.

There are big differences, especially in power ratings and how they are measured. Got to make sure you're comparing apples to apples. Look forward power specs in Watts RMS. Peak ratings that many companies use are meaningless. If you don't see a WRMS rating and a SPL rating, call their customer service and get an answer. It's like we've gone back to the days when the car stereo guys were advertising 100-watts and the systems only putting out 2.5.

Carvin is one company that gave me a straight answer and that's why I bought a system from them.

Bill

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

Got to admit, this would be a great system. But, with three 450's as monitors, mixer, speakers, subs, snake, and mic cables to connect the speakers, A.C. cords, EQs, compression, reverb and delay unit....you've just built a $7000--$8000 system. It will sound great, if you know how to run it, and it can be expanded, for bigger clubs.

Still, for the average bar band, that is a BIG chunk-'o-change for $100/man gigs. I know you can do good quality for less.

And a 32-channel board is HUGE. Unless you have backup singers, horns, two keyboard players, yards yadda yadda...you can probably get buy with 16 or 24 at the most.

My two cents...

Bill

Kinda related to my point. If you are a truly loud band, there is no such thing as a P.A. that is adequate, yet inexpensive. You're talking several thousands of dollars for one that does a worthwhile job.

And, being completely honest with ourselves and each other, $100 a man is unrealistic for most bands, especially loud heavy metal bands. That kind of money is made routinely (especially in the smaller cities or sparsely populated areas where supply and demand favors the musicians rather than the promoters). But it usually goes to covers/bar bands, not hard rock or metal bands. Even when I went on tour with a fairly well established blues band, I averaged only $160 per gig over the month (20 gigs) we were on the road (plus a weekly driving bonus, and usually got at least one good meal a day paid for, and drinks at night, free lodgings, often quite nice, etc.). And that usually included 6 or 8 hours a day of driving (split between myself and the drummer). This also doesn't include the extra money for nights I worked the merch table. Not good money, but at least stomachable for a non-world-famous pro blues act, being just the lowly bass player on his first time out and all. We hauled no P.A. equipment aside from mics for our singer (she had cancer, so she had to be careful about germs and stuff). But if we had been providing P.A. stuff as well, it would have really been pretty poor money for the extra work, and the initial expense involved. Also, this is a band on tour, with an established fan base, playing 20 gigs in a month – concentrating energy into a concise and efficient series of gigs, thus making decent money. A loud local metal band playing a few local gigs here and there every month isn't going to come anywhere close to averaging that (even though it isn't even a lot of money, really). And having to purchase and haul an adequate P.A. system to gigs on top of it? All it does is reduce your pay in the end.

Point being not to discourage you in general, but to encourage you to be realistic about your goals. By all means, do it if you are all independently secure financially, and just need the P.A. to get some cool gigs played, i.e. if the band doesn't really need to be self supporting. But don't do it thinking it's an "investment," in the monetary sense. Very few loud hard rock/metal bands can self-support the purchase and use of a P.A. adequate for that style of music. If you are in a position in which the band needs to be self supporting, then stick to rental rehearsal studios and venues that have P.A.s for now.

 

[jeremy]

Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

you make very valid points and you are right that a touring band shouldnt really have to deal with pa.

many places i play have a pa. this weekend for example ill be at three local venues and they all have pa but ill need to bring mic's, stands, and cables for the one on sunday. some weeks i might have to haul pa three times. ive had this stuff for years so if i havent gotten my full investment out of it, ive come pretty close and will keep chipping away at it. for me its nice to know that i own a suitable pa for everything from a solo acoustic show to a full band where i have four monitor mixes and use all 16 channels running through a few thousand watts and pumping four 15's for mains. it wasnt cheap by any stretch but it sounds bad ass and its all mine. sucks hauling it around but knowing that i can cover anything that comes up is nice.

i think acebobs band is doing this for fun more than anything else and im guessing there are places they will play that dont have pa. renting one gets expensive quickly.

15" mains, 12" monitors or even 10's (my mackie 10's sound great), 16 channel board, 16 channel snake, and a sub or two is what id suggest. as far as brand? i have no idea. find the best deals you can and do your research before you buy. do you have a budget?

 

[uOpt]

Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

FWIW, I have a 1990s Behringer Eurodesk which is an unreliable piece of **** that dumps pots and switches on a regular basis.

Not saying they still suck, but Behringer is on my not recommended list until I find something good (some Behringer branded gear is rebranded reasonable gear, though).

 

[jeremy]

Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

the only behringer gear i have is a multicom pro xl and its ok but a little noisy. i got it dirt cheap so its fine for what it does when i need extra channels of compression/limiter/gate. it lives a pretty babied life though so not sure how it would hold up if it wasnt in a rack that doesnt get moved much

 

[Lazarus1140]

Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

Good thread and fairly timely for me as well

Me, too.

If it were even possible for me to get embarrassed I would. I have a question about subs. Do they require a different send from the amp?

Let me try to be more specific. Assume I have a (not powered) mixer, a stereo amp, and passive speakers, and that I want to run the mains in stereo rather than using one side of the amp for stereo and the other side for monitors.

Would a speaker cable run to the subs and then the frequencies are split there so that a second cable would connect the sub cabinet to another cabinet with, let's say, a 12" and a horn. Or do the subs require an independent amp channel, and if so, how is the range of frequencies limited.

As you can see, I am clueless.

I am also curious as to how to most efficiently and for highest quality sound match wattage between power amps and speakers. It seems that opinions vary greatly on this.