PA for BAnd - serious discussion

Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

@Laz...

(FOH=front of house)

In a passive FOH speaker set-up things go like this.... The mixing board will feed the FOH signal to an active crossover. The crossover would then split the FOH signal into two signals...one containing only signal from say about 150Hz and below....the other from 150Hz and above. The crossover then sends those two signals to their respective amplifiers and then of course the amps then drive the appropriate speaker(s) An active crossover works on the line level signal coming from the mixer so it does its business before the amplifier. This is a much better way to manage things.

Less desirable (but less hassle) is to run the full range FOH signal straight to an amp and then from the amp to the sub via a regular speaker cable feed and then from the sub to the mid/high range box above via a daisy chain speaker cable. In this case your dealing with a passive crossover. They are less efficient as some of your signal just gets lost as heat and since its a fixed deal inside a box there's never (at least I've never seen it) any way to change the crossover frequency. But if you're dealing with single manufacturer that has matched the sub to the top cab they should have already done the math for you and results can be acceptable.

As for power and speakers...good rule of thumb is an amp that will put out a program or RMS wattage about twice what you speaker is rated for. So for my 300watt EV's I'd be comfortable with a 500-600 watt amp. PA amps don't like to run on the ragged edge like their tube guitar amp counterparts. Leaving yourself plenty of headroom means the amp stays crystal clear. So if you start cranking things too loud you'll know that distortion is coming from a speaker that being pushed too hard and it's time to back it down a a notch or two.
 
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Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

most passive subs need their own power and have limited frequency response that is tailored to big bottom.

i run a totally passive system other than i use a powered sub and it works fine. i didnt want to buy another power amp for the sub so this worked best for me
 
Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

This thread delivers. Not sure how many watts - but it's delivering!
 
Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

I'm with Boogie Bill
I have 2 Carvin 15s and 2 Carvin 12s
both sets powered they are rated at 400 watts each

my buddy the gigging musician has borrowed the 12s to use as monitors on a few gigs and wanted to buy them


Carvin makes some great stuff

I sold my 16 channel mixer recently and am looking at the Auto tune peaveys
 
Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

most passive subs need their own power and have limited frequency response that is tailored to big bottom.

i run a totally passive system other than i use a powered sub and it works fine. i didnt want to buy another power amp for the sub so this worked best for me

If I were to add anything to our system, it would be a powered sub (or a new board with better EQ controls). I keep thinking about adding one, but the speakers we run have a horn, a 15 and an 18 with it's own enclosure and a built in crossover. It's not the same as having a dedicated sub, but I feel like it gets the job done well enough for our purposes. We are one of the country/classic rock bands in a sparsely populated area that ItsaBass referred to, $100/guy a night is pretty standard and we typically play for anywhere between 30-200 people depending on venue and what night it is).
 
Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

If I were to add anything to our system, it would be a powered sub (or a new board with better EQ controls). I keep thinking about adding one, but the speakers we run have a horn, a 15 and an 18 with it's own enclosure and a built in crossover. It's not the same as having a dedicated sub, but I feel like it gets the job done well enough for our purposes. We are one of the country/classic rock bands in a sparsely populated area that ItsaBass referred to, $100/guy a night is pretty standard and we typically play for anywhere between 30-200 people depending on venue and what night it is).

Add a dedicated sub on each side. Your bass player and drummer will thank you big time. And so will your audience! Your audiences are large enough for Mackie 1801 subwoofers. Try and get a couple at your earliest convenience. Enjoy!
 
Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

@Laz...

Sly did a good job with your question. I would only add that stereo mixing does not work well in most live venues. Most clubs were not designed for music, and odd-shaped rooms and corner stages aren't conducive to stereo mixing. The only times I do a stereo FOH mix is where the stage is on the narrow end of a rectangular room facing the length of the room, and the only thing in stereo is the SR-16 drum machine. Still, the stereo effect can only be heard in about the first third to half of the room. Vocals and everything else is all mixed in mono.

Matching amps to speakers is a simple formula. Most companies rate their speaker's power handling in watts three ways: RMS, PROGRAM, and PEAK power. My Peavey SP-2X speakers are rated at 500 watts RMS, 1,000 watts PROGRAM, and 2,000 watts PEAK. So Peavey recommends using an amp that can deliver 1,000 watts RMS to that speaker. A pair would get 1,000 watts to EACH speaker. In practice, you can use a little as 750 watts, but you need that much power for clean sound and headroom.

Oh, and did you guys know that your vocalists should all be using the exact same mic? And the same monitor speaker? Especially so in small systems, where you may only have one monitor mix. Using different vocal mics can cause feedback and comb filter effects. One of the many reasons why a mixer with multiple pre-fader auxiliary monitor mixes is so handy.

Read the Yamaha Sound Reinforcement book. There's another one called "How To Make Your Band Sound Great". You've got to learn this stuff to be successful.

Bill
 
Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

Oh, and did you guys know that your vocalists should all be using the exact same mic? And the same monitor speaker? Especially so in small systems, where you may only have one monitor mix. Using different vocal mics can cause feedback and comb filter effects. One of the many reasons why a mixer with multiple pre-fader auxiliary monitor mixes is so handy.

Read the Yamaha Sound Reinforcement book. There's another one called "How To Make Your Band Sound Great". You've got to learn this stuff to be successful.

Bill[/QUOTE]
This is good stuff Bill, I can never learn enough. I've read lots but never came across the suggestion that all vocalists use the exact same mic. I'll follow that and check it out. My band has 7 singers at times........if you can add more to that please explain. The rest of what you said I think i've seen and heard before......didn't know about those books though and will try and find them. Glad I came back to read responses.....really good stuff!
 
Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

Add a dedicated sub on each side. Your bass player and drummer will thank you big time. And so will your audience! Your audiences are large enough for Mackie 1801 subwoofers. Try and get a couple at your earliest convenience. Enjoy!

I would worry about it more, but I'm leaving in 4 months, and only my mic and monitor are mine.


I'd never heard that everyone should be using the same mic, but I guess that makes sense. We have two SM58's, an Audix 58 equivalent, and I'm not sure what the 4th guy uses. He gets his own monitor mix (he has a powered monitor). I share a monitor with the guy with the Audix, and we give our drummer his own mix. I'd love for everyone to have an SM-58, but again, since I'm leaving soon, I'm not going to bother trying to change their setup.
 
Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

Just need to bite the bullet and read the book.
 
Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

There may be no hope for me. I just read the user manual for an Allen and Heath ZED 12FX. It might as well have been the 86 page manual for a $300 Casio keyboard. I got lost right away. I think I would need at least a few hours of personal training.
 
Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

There may be no hope for me. I just read the user manual for an Allen and Heath ZED 12FX. It might as well have been the 86 page manual for a $300 Casio keyboard. I got lost right away. I think I would need at least a few hours of personal training.

I read everything I could, but nothing beats some hands on training. I learned the most when my old band bought a PA and had a friend of mine who has a lot of experience with live sound teach me how to use the thing.

After a couple of hours of him showing me how it all worked together, the stuff in the books and manuals seemed a lot less daunting.
 
Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

I'd add that the Yahama book gets into a lot of detail that can seem very daunting at first.

The early chapters have a good bit of math going on as they explain decibels and electrical signal levels etc. Though handy to absorb it all, it's not necessary to memorize formulas and carry a slide rule to run the modest systems we all use.

Just being aware of the fact that there are many types of electrical signals running through a sound system and their general nature will have you knowing what goes into here and what comes out of there. Getting a handle on the basic pieces of gear: mixer, speaker, amplifier, microphone, EQ, compressor and understanding their basic function and the electrical characteristics of their inputs and outputs will have to well on your way to getting decent results.

Modern PA gear is miles ahead of stuff from the early days of rock and blues. Having a good set of ears, common sense and a simple knowledge of what plugs in where can get you pretty close to having a decent sound and not blowing stuff up.
 
Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

Yeah, have the manual open while you're sitting in front of the board, as long as things are hooked up right, playing with the board for a few hours is invaluable time.

For me, once it hit me that a mixer is just a big routing surface, things started to make more sense...oh, and gain staging, for the love of ****, learn about gain staging!
 
Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

Yeah, have the manual open while you're sitting in front of the board, as long as things are hooked up right, playing with the board for a few hours is invaluable time.

For me, once it hit me that a mixer is just a big routing surface, things started to make more sense...oh, and gain staging, for the love of ****, learn about gain staging!

For sure. One guy I know who tried hard to be a soundman would try to force guitar players to fit where he wanted to leave the gain control...around 3 o'clock on the dial...instead of tailoring his level to allow for players using differing volume levels. Very frustrating.
 
Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

that guy obviously doesnt know what the heck he is doing.
 
Re: PA for BAnd - serious discussion

I DO have a powered speaker, (12 inch Harbinger) and a little Alto mixer for my acoustic.
 
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