El Dunco
Sock Supplier to RHCP
Yeah, it can be awesome for adding energy, great on room mics and especially with a Fatso Distressor
Passive bass pickups with active EQ--underrated setup?
- Thread starter Inflames626
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Yeah, it can be awesome for adding energy, great on room mics and especially with a Fatso Distressor
Inflames626
New member
Does it work as well for bass guitar?
El Dunco
Sock Supplier to RHCP
It depends. IME it does funny things to bass guitar. Better off just using the least amount of compression it takes to keep the low end stable in the mix, make sure your bassist is tight and consistent because if they are, transients are your friend.. Multiband though, that’s another story.
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Rex_Rocker
Well-known member
I personally like the bass' low end to be squashed to hell and back and only really let it decay like it normally would. But like I was saying, rather than using MBC, I split the bass so that the low-end is completely clean off the pickups. Like not even with the coloration of a bass amp.
For the rest of the bass, I like to even out the transients, but lightly and in different stages. I find compressor pedals actually bring out the attack since they're usually slow-ish, and make it seem like you're picking the bass with a sledgehammer rather than a pick. Some subtle compression afterwards, then some subtle compression on the bus mixing all my bass tracks but now as a whole again.
But yeah, consistent playing goes a long way.
I personally really like the sound of bass being played HARD. Honestly, with any instrument. I hate Metal being played like the band is afraid to ruin their manicures. The problem sometimes is with a pick, there is a lot more pitch drift problems with the attack of the notes, especially on the fast parts. So sometimes, you're forced to tune the bass a bit flat because of that. I've read people even use autotune on picked metal bass because of that.
For the rest of the bass, I like to even out the transients, but lightly and in different stages. I find compressor pedals actually bring out the attack since they're usually slow-ish, and make it seem like you're picking the bass with a sledgehammer rather than a pick. Some subtle compression afterwards, then some subtle compression on the bus mixing all my bass tracks but now as a whole again.
But yeah, consistent playing goes a long way.
I personally really like the sound of bass being played HARD. Honestly, with any instrument. I hate Metal being played like the band is afraid to ruin their manicures. The problem sometimes is with a pick, there is a lot more pitch drift problems with the attack of the notes, especially on the fast parts. So sometimes, you're forced to tune the bass a bit flat because of that. I've read people even use autotune on picked metal bass because of that.
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El Dunco
Sock Supplier to RHCP
I’ll do that sometimes. It depends entirely on the bass sound and role in the song. Cranking a medijm bell at 50hz on the clean bass channel before the compressor, then shaving that off later (basically acting as instructions for the compressor.). I’m pretty bored of the same DI mixed with midrange only distortion that is the most common bass sound in modern metal so I’m always looking for something different.
Sometimes I will have the guitars and bass be almost equal parts of a greater whole rather than having the guitars take up all the bandwidth (or taking all the low end away. Again, I plan very meticulously based on the goal of the composition. I showed an example in T&C.
What I really like about basses that have a passive mode is how much better they play with really nasty fuzzes. There’s a new song we’re working on with a lot of emphasis on soundscapes. The verse guitars are split between a companion fuzz (nastiest fuzz I’ve ever heard!) straight to desk with crazy stuff to it and the Dual Rec to give it some “balls.” There’s some real complicated stuff going on. Can’t wait to release it.
Inflames626
New member
I've never really understood aggressive picking unless a part calls for it. I hate sloppy right hand playing or attempting to compensate for it by emotion. Watching punk rock players bothers me. I prefer economy of motion and keeping everything tight.
Fast picking on bass in my experience is hard. If you listen to isolated bass tracks like Slayer a lot of times the bass parts against guitar parts at 16ths 200 bpm and above are just 8th notes. The bass is so buried in the mix and covered by double kicks that no one can hear it.
Jason Newsted will definitely pick 16ths, which in my opinion is hard because of the additional string resistance over guitar. Dyers Eve bass track is all picked and for the most part follows guitars.
Finger playing on bass is harder to master, I think. It's like classical playing. You have to get the dynamics even, but once you are there and can do it consistently it takes less energy than playing fast with a pick.
A great finger player is better than a mediocre pick player, I think, but I definitely prefer picked bass over sloppy finger playing.
Fast picking on bass in my experience is hard. If you listen to isolated bass tracks like Slayer a lot of times the bass parts against guitar parts at 16ths 200 bpm and above are just 8th notes. The bass is so buried in the mix and covered by double kicks that no one can hear it.
Jason Newsted will definitely pick 16ths, which in my opinion is hard because of the additional string resistance over guitar. Dyers Eve bass track is all picked and for the most part follows guitars.
Finger playing on bass is harder to master, I think. It's like classical playing. You have to get the dynamics even, but once you are there and can do it consistently it takes less energy than playing fast with a pick.
A great finger player is better than a mediocre pick player, I think, but I definitely prefer picked bass over sloppy finger playing.
El Dunco
Sock Supplier to RHCP
Check out Rex Brown’s picking in SNP2. Like a helicopter! Alex Webster can do that with his fingers because he uses 3.
Inflames626
New member
El Dunco, spot on as usual. I think Alex defeats the standard thinking that picked bass for metal is better and more consistent. Alex sounds like he's using a pick when he's using his fingers.
I think finger bassists are also more rounded players and can do more styles and techniques.
What Rex is doing is exactly what I need to work on. Just getting out the click and upping it every day.
Not my ideal tone by any means but I realize it's in a mix. SN2 is also kind of a throwaway song IMO, as is a lot of stuff on the second side of that album (I bought it first as a cassette). I much preferred Hell's Wrath and I Can't Hide from 101 Proof.
I think finger bassists are also more rounded players and can do more styles and techniques.
What Rex is doing is exactly what I need to work on. Just getting out the click and upping it every day.
Not my ideal tone by any means but I realize it's in a mix. SN2 is also kind of a throwaway song IMO, as is a lot of stuff on the second side of that album (I bought it first as a cassette). I much preferred Hell's Wrath and I Can't Hide from 101 Proof.
Inflames626
New member
I've considered felt picks as a compromise--something that might give around the bass string and allow faster playing at the expense of sounding more like a finger player.
I'm thinking finger players who want more attack might do better with stainless strings as well, or pick players who want more warmth might want pure nickel or even flatwounds.
I'm thinking finger players who want more attack might do better with stainless strings as well, or pick players who want more warmth might want pure nickel or even flatwounds.
Inflames626
New member
Also I have *tried* finger bass using right hand pinky. I'm not sure if anyone has mastered it but I wish I could do it well.
In classical guitar we were encouraged to use pinky. I see no harm in trying it on bass (aside from some tendon pain issues at the beginning). My pinky is fairly small, short, and weak, which is good for guitars up high on the neck because I can fit in there, but it becomes a liability when doing pinky vibrato or trying to play with the pinky on right hand for bass.
In classical guitar we were encouraged to use pinky. I see no harm in trying it on bass (aside from some tendon pain issues at the beginning). My pinky is fairly small, short, and weak, which is good for guitars up high on the neck because I can fit in there, but it becomes a liability when doing pinky vibrato or trying to play with the pinky on right hand for bass.
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El Dunco
Sock Supplier to RHCP
Hell’s Wrath is one of my favourites. That whole album has such a real palpable anger, bitterness and misery all through that makes it devastatingly effective. From the first few seconds, you know the fun’s over and they’re really not messing around. Hits me where I live.
Inflames626
New member
Also except for the low/flubby notes under the SN2 mix, I'd say that's the opposite tone Rex would get out of his Thunderbird these days.
Not sure it matters. That's just not the tone I associate with a Gibson bass.
Not sure it matters. That's just not the tone I associate with a Gibson bass.
El Dunco
Sock Supplier to RHCP
That would be the 5th string of the Spector when the notes sound a bit less punchy. Hell’s Wrath and War Nerve isolated are a bit brighter sounding, 10’s is a bit more worn in.
Inflames626
New member
This reminds me of a thread I had with Facebook plebs about James MacDonough (short lived bassist in Megadeth after Ellefson, from about 2004-6, later went to Iced Earth).
His complaint was he was a finger player and Mustaine insisted MacDonough use a pick. He never liked how it felt so eventually he asked to leave. He was grateful to Dave for giving him a shot but ultimately said it wasn't a good fit.
All the plebs were saying you have to use a pick to be a good metal bassist. I said you could dial in to compensate and Mustaine should have been more flexible since finger players are usually better bassists overall and pick players are usually just guitarists playing bass.
His complaint was he was a finger player and Mustaine insisted MacDonough use a pick. He never liked how it felt so eventually he asked to leave. He was grateful to Dave for giving him a shot but ultimately said it wasn't a good fit.
All the plebs were saying you have to use a pick to be a good metal bassist. I said you could dial in to compensate and Mustaine should have been more flexible since finger players are usually better bassists overall and pick players are usually just guitarists playing bass.
Inflames626
New member
I believe they only went to Db in those days, with the usual slightly flat Pantera-ness to it.
El Dunco
Sock Supplier to RHCP
Yes, but if you listen closely, he’s using a 5 string with that 5th string tuned down to A (in their 432hz quarter tuning). Check out the 13 Steps To Nowhere track, he pulls off some super low notes in the breakdown. Drag The Waters is Db/C#
Inflames626
New member
I always wondered why a lot of the 80s/90s guys (mainly Newsted) used a 5 string live when few if any of their songs were in a tuning that required it.
I guessed it was to play a 4th/5th below for added muscle, but this usually produces some added tension that I usually didn't hear between bass and guitar live. By tension I mean if you try to play A minor pentatonic licks over E5 at 12th fret.
Rex_Rocker
Well-known member
Well, my reasoning is it's Metal. It's supposed to be aggressive all throughout.
I don't think it's about more efficiency. At least not for me. But I don't have a Petrucci approach to bass with the efficiency and whatnot. Or with any instrument, for that matter. I just like the sound of guitars or bass being picked hard and agressive. At least the heavy parts, which like what, 99.9% of what I play.
I started out playing bass finger-style because that's what my teacher at that time said bass supposed to be played like. Until I realized that was the biggest part of what I wasn't getting the tone I wanted.
I later realized the other half was because all of the tones I was looking up to had a hint of distortion in there. Not many beginner bass amps have built-in distortion. My Ampeg BA certainly does not. So as soon as I got my MXR M80, I realized I didn't have to crank the treble to get the klank I was looking for. The distortion just brings it out in a much more musical and controllable way. A compressor pedal also helps. I used to use the EHX Black Finger which is tube, so it also overdrove a little.
For me, using a compressor with bass is kinda like using a Tube Screamer with a high-gain amp for guitar. Like, it almost automatically make anything sound better 90% of the time.
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Rex_Rocker
Well-known member
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/5dj7...ng-3.mp3?rlkey=9w6yk2sm37x0u73n7ythwsob0&dl=0
I guess this is my track (Pantera-inspired) where the bass cuts through the most.
I guess this is my track (Pantera-inspired) where the bass cuts through the most.
Inflames626
New member
The harder I play bass the more inconsistent the dynamics become because the upstrokes have to be a lot harder to produce consistent tone. It sounds like Rex has almost a flutter effect going and I prefer that because it's consistent.
I tend to dig into guitar pretty hard for Paul Gilbert esque precision, but bass I don't really mind some blurring. I usually have to compress it quite a bit anyway to get it even.
Not a fan of the clank unless it's a hardcore/nu metal tune. There will be some grit needed on the pick attack to cut through but generally I see metal guys using way more grit than I would use. I like the grit left to the guitars, the click left to the kick, and the warmth left to the bass.
Euge Valovirta has some really good production videos. One is on bass here. I commented in the comment section.
I like a passive PJ sound these days more than an active dual soapbar click.
Still, even Euge has a little more Lemmy in that tone than what I would use and that's a pretty tame tone for clank bass.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfs1gpBwVM4&lc=Ugx6f_8wz7VCkruhOzh4AaABAg.9wZ2biLYZ209wZhXrhyNpZ
I tend to dig into guitar pretty hard for Paul Gilbert esque precision, but bass I don't really mind some blurring. I usually have to compress it quite a bit anyway to get it even.
Not a fan of the clank unless it's a hardcore/nu metal tune. There will be some grit needed on the pick attack to cut through but generally I see metal guys using way more grit than I would use. I like the grit left to the guitars, the click left to the kick, and the warmth left to the bass.
Euge Valovirta has some really good production videos. One is on bass here. I commented in the comment section.
I like a passive PJ sound these days more than an active dual soapbar click.
Still, even Euge has a little more Lemmy in that tone than what I would use and that's a pretty tame tone for clank bass.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfs1gpBwVM4&lc=Ugx6f_8wz7VCkruhOzh4AaABAg.9wZ2biLYZ209wZhXrhyNpZ
