Perhaps a slightly more civilized version of the One Man Band thread?

[DrNewcenstein]

Seems something caught on fire in the other thread, but I found it to be an interesting topic, even up to the point where the fire broke out.

So, I'd like to address the point that was made just before things got personal: that is Mincer's statement of (paraphrasing here) "I like to see musicians creating music live, not simply performing it".

This is a common thought among most musicians.

Everyone's different, of course, and it's obvious some are against the idea that TO proposed of a real musician doing the same thing that lesser mortals (DJs and keyboard-players) enjoy: playing along live to some pre-arranged material.

However, even if all the members of the SDUGF chimed in and said "Nah, I don't see it going over" that doesn't mean it's a bad idea, that just means that a minority of musicians of varying skill levels wouldn't go for it.

I despise most, if not all, traditions because they tend to inspire zealotry on the level of religious fervor, and that's no good for anyone except the zealots. As I said earlier in the other thread, this is something I've contemplated doing for a few years now, mostly because the area I live in and the schedule I work doesn't afford me a proper rehearsal schedule, much less seeking out other musicians.
As well, I cover what I consider a fairly broad range of styles in my original instrumentals, and may have need of a full Latin percussion section for maybe 3 songs out of about 30, while other times it will be just me and a looper, and still others I might need a 3-piece horn section.

I do not, however, expect to find a local venue that could accommodate a 10-15 piece band, much less pay for one. I really don't expect to find an audience around here, to be honest.
Doesn't mean I won't give it a shot.

In an "electronic accompaniment" setup, I can have all of that when I need it, and with the proper sound reinforcement and an East-West package, it would sound like a live band, and that is all that the average non-musical patron is concerned with, which is the only audience any musician should be concerned with.

"How many musicians does it take to change a light bulb?" comes to mind.

Now, TO's vision of doing it with Prog may either be bleeding-edge genius that smashes a barrier no one knew existed, or it might go unappreciated for years before someone else "discovers" this idea.

On the surface, as a musician, yes you do lose the spontaneity of an ensemble. There's only one performer upon which The Muse may fall, and be inspired to set off on a personal journey during the performance, but the CD or MIDI sequence will do what it does.
However, it's not unreasonable that sequences and loops can be triggered remotely if one has the proper gear on-hand.

I'd certainly be interested in knowing if this is possible, and how it can be done. I've seen various pad-style controllers and whatnot but have never actually used one. I'd love to see a skilled musician use DJ equipment for original works, mostly to shame the typical DJ into proclaiming "His science is too tight!" and abandoning their foolish and blasphemous ways. :lol:

 

[BriGuy1968]

Re: Perhaps a slightly more civilized version of the One Man Band thread?

I've done (and sometimes still do) the one-man-band thing, but really only as myself, an acoustic guitar, and a cajon with a kick pedal... so it's really not the same as what you're talking about here. In fact, I saw the other thread start and then decided, since it really wasn't the same thing as what I do when performing by myself, to not participate in or pay attention to it. Perhaps I should have, because it sounds like (from your description) there were some pretty cool ideas in it.

So this is coming from a guy who didn't read the thread and doesn't have any idea what the "fire" was that broke out, but I can imagine that it was someone disagreeing with the premise and getting belligerent about it. If so, that's a damned shame!

Any kind of pre-recorded/programmed/etc. accompaniment is going to not really care if you screw up or have a sudden inspiration to change it up mid-song... it's going to just keep going on its path until it's finished, but that doesn't mean it's a bad performance. What do we do when we're recording and all the other tracks are already laid down? We stick to the plan and (hopefully) we call it a good recording when it's completed. Besides, I would guess that most of the guys who would venture down the road of having pre-made accompaniment would probably design and record it themselves (as opposed to purchasing a track) to be the way they would want to perform it, so there IS actually some ability for the artist to "make it his/her own" through the design of the arrangement. Also, if as you suggested there is a way for the performer to cue different passages, that would make it even more personalized and spontaneous (although controlling it would be just one more thing for the performer to have to remember!)

I play in a cover band and I love it... but even there we have a plan for most songs. We have a few where we say "solo as long as you like, just give us a look when you're ready to move on," but for the most part we stick to the plan for the song. The only difference between that and playing with pre-made tracks is that with the tracks you're basically working without a net. If you miss a cue, the band can come back around to save you... but we all know that plenty of practice and discipline helps to alleviate that factor.

Finally, I just want to say that the opinions of other musicians about a performance are like ***holes... everyone has one, and they're all full of $#!+. In my experience, musicians make lousy audiences... myself included. I have to be in the right frame of mind to watch other musicians, otherwise I end up feeling jealous that I'm not performing right now, being over-critical, feeling superior, feeling inadequate, or a myriad of other "not-helpful" emotions depending on the performance and my own hangups at the time.

Musicians (typically) only make good audiences when we want to be noticed for our technical expertise or creative genius. Normal audiences just want to be entertained. We all hate playing "Sweet Home Alabama" or "Takin' Care of Business," but when we do doesn't the dance floor all of a sudden fill up? Non-musician audiences like what they like, and it isn't tainted by having their own musical expertise or ability. There's no reason in the world why a one-man-band can't deliver a great performance to an audience just as well (in the right situation) as a full band or even orchestra.

My $.02... for what it's worth.

 

[Lazarus1140]

Re: Perhaps a slightly more civilized version of the One Man Band thread?

Once in my life I went on a cruise. One entertainer was a guitar player who had some sort of set-up similar to Karaoke. He played guitar and sang along with a backing track and he was really very good. The only gear I saw was his guitar, a DigiTech floor unit and a PA. How the backing track was integrated was a mystery to me, but I suspect he had an iPod or something similar running into one channel of the PA.

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Perhaps a slightly more civilized version of the One Man Band thread?

To me there's a difference between "one man band" and "solo act". The solo act is typically the one guy with an acoustic, maybe a harmonica on a retainer like Bob Dylan and such, or maybe a small kick with a tambourine on top that hits the opposite beat.


For those who would say "One guy in a club with a guitar and a karaoke box? Pfft that's weak!", what's the difference if he's in a club or on a street corner?

I don't imagine Twilight Odyssey was thinking of MIDI covers of Dream Theater or Trans-Siberian Orchestra from MySongBook.com or FreeTabs or whoever running off a Casio. Even if he is, certainly he's old and smart enough to use a sound module somewhat higher than a Casio keyboard, and wouldn't use a MIDI sequence of ill repute.

 

[eclecticsynergy]

Re: Perhaps a slightly more civilized version of the One Man Band thread?

Been tempted to try this for many years. Was deterred by the complication of a setup to easily improvise arrangements, rather than just add parts to a pre-made backing track. The technology's been around since the 80s but involved specialized equipment that pretty much was the province of studios. During the intervening years the cost came down to the point that it was accessible to DJs & regular musicians. Now I think it probably can be done on a laptop, so maybe the time has come for me. I'm going to go read the other thread.

 

[everdrone]

Re: Perhaps a slightly more civilized version of the One Man Band thread?

people like to hear live stuff and not tracks, but at the same time the nu skool bands use tracks for their dubstep song intros and whatnot

I had fun doing the singer/acoustic guitarist songwriter stuff 20 years ago

it would be nice to do a two person bit though like the white stripes, my electronic drumset is really portable and easy to set up for open mic nights on the fly, so this is very possible at any setting really

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Perhaps a slightly more civilized version of the One Man Band thread?

Again, that's a broad generalization, similar to what started the fire in the other thread. I'm sure "some" people like to hear live stuff i.e. see people playing instruments, but again, other musicians are never the target audience of a musician.

There is no fundamental difference between instrumental and vocal karaoke, nor is there a fundamental difference between a keyboardist in a full band using a synth to conjure up sounds of instruments that are not actually on the stage or to trigger a loop or a sample like old TV and movie dialog clips, and a non-keyboardist/non-DJ/non-vocalist doing the same thing.

 

[dave74]

Re: Perhaps a slightly more civilized version of the One Man Band thread?

On a dumbed-down lighter note;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcaTgwZ2qh8

 

[everdrone]

Re: Perhaps a slightly more civilized version of the One Man Band thread?

opinions are opinions man, one human brain comes up with an opinion doesnt mean that it is right

its pretty rare that I see the backing track stuff really, I spent the last 8 years in Austin Texas and it was never really done except for by the industrial bands and stuff

I know Korn did tons of it when they put out their dubstep album

 

[VinceT]

Re: Perhaps a slightly more civilized version of the One Man Band thread?

Our band had the pleasure of supporting The Saturday Giant when he span through CT recently. He played a great set and really takes live generation of loops to another level. Lovely guy.

https://youtu.be/oUo-Gt5ByGA


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[El Dunco]

Re: Perhaps a slightly more civilized version of the One Man Band thread?

In my main band, we have industrial elements like synth and extra electronic percussion which is divided between me having a sampler controlled by a stompbox which goes to the PA and usually contains synth lines, samples and so on and the drummer with his own sampler with the more percussive samples controlled by drum pads going into the PA. It works out. The alternatives would be to have to hire a keyboard or separate samples guy who presses some keys now and again or have to play to a pre-recorded backing track which wouldn't let us get too improvisational and we would have to stick to a rigid tempo. I think our current setup gives us the most flexibility. My side project doesn't have a full time drummer and a lot of the drums are purposefully synthetic anyway because it's more industrial so I can see that having a pre-recorded element for some of it if we take it to the stage in the future and don't have a drummer by then.

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Perhaps a slightly more civilized version of the One Man Band thread?

So it can be done in a dynamic sense. Granted it's limited when it's only one or two people, but experimentation is what Prog is all about, right? If there's no experimentation, it's just Fusion.

 

[Mincer]

Re: Perhaps a slightly more civilized version of the One Man Band thread?

My point was, as a musician watching a show...
I'd almost always hear a live band, or interesting arrangements by a solo or duo than backing tracks. I know most people don't care. This is for MY taste. I don't care how many backing tracks there are. Hey, I get upset when I go see a touring band and hear backup vocals through the PA that no one onstage is singing. What I go see live music for is to see musicians performing the music, not the music itself. In other words, I can enjoy musicians performing a style I don't usually like, if they do it with passion, and they do something unique while reacting to each other musically.

 

[everdrone]

Re: Perhaps a slightly more civilized version of the One Man Band thread?

well all the pop singers use the backing tracks so clearly its done a lot

not in my music though, when I go to see my blues/rock/metal shows I wanna see live the peeps that make the music perform it live. otherwise ya ill just listen at home. I like Nine inch Nails which is a one man band. so do millions of others. they hire a bunch of musicians to perform it and wow the shows are awesome!

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Perhaps a slightly more civilized version of the One Man Band thread?

And that's fine. However, I saw no indication that TO was looking at booking arenas right out of the gate, so it's a bit of a different context.

 

[AmirH]

Re: Perhaps a slightly more civilized version of the One Man Band thread?

I think the happy middle ground between what Twighlight and Mincer were arguing about in the other thread can be found in devices like this:

Or set-ups like John Hopins', where the dry stems are getting effected in real time. It is also the center-piece of DJ/Producer "The Field"'s rig. Admittedly though, I do gravitate toward artists who build songs from the ground-up. My favorite one-man-band artist is Dosh.

 

[Mincer]

Re: Perhaps a slightly more civilized version of the One Man Band thread?

I am also for non-standard arrangements and using equipment in a different way than intended. If I can't tell what is going on, I'm engaged. If I hear a drum beat, but see no drummer, I start looking at my phone.

 

[jeremy]

Re: Perhaps a slightly more civilized version of the One Man Band thread?

at that point ill start looking for the bar and get a drink, if nothing has grabbed me by the time i finish said drink, ill start looking for the door

 

[Gearjoneser]

Re: Perhaps a slightly more civilized version of the One Man Band thread?

I think the closest thing to this concept is what you see at guitar clinics where a virtuoso guitarist or drummer is performing to pre-recorded tracks. And what do you see?..... a lot of musicians being thoroughly entertained, not really caring that there's a backing track, as long as the main player is good at what they do.

Of course, this is a clinic at a music store not a show at a big venue, but I still think a concert like this would work at a small bar, coffee house, cultural center, party, or corporate event.
The music would definitely have to fit the vibe of the audience and venue though.

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Perhaps a slightly more civilized version of the One Man Band thread?

I think the closest thing to this concept is what you see at guitar clinics where a virtuoso guitarist or drummer is performing to pre-recorded tracks. And what do you see?..... a lot of musicians being thoroughly entertained, not really caring that there's a backing track, as long as the main player is good at what they do.

Of course, this is a clinic at a music store not a show at a big venue, but I still think a concert like this would work at a small bar, coffee house, cultural center, party, or corporate event.
The music would definitely have to fit the vibe of the audience and venue though.

And the attending virtuoso is a known name, and those in attendance are already fans who are there to study his technique and see his face, not to enjoy the audio.


I think there is some confusion as to what it meant by "sample" in this context.

EZ Drummer uses samples.

East-West uses samples.

These are not pulse-code modulated waveforms that were initiated by a tone generator.

You get a real person who really plays the real instrument into a real studio and put real mics up and really record them actually playing a series of notes at various velocities and of various note lengths. These are then saved as a file type that supports velocity layers, or each individual note gets its own separate file (it's been done both ways).
These can then be assigned to soundbanks for a given device or software package to use.

This is how FXpansion BFD works. This is how Toontrack Superior Drummer works. This is how all top-quality as-used-by-movie-studios software packages work. This is how top-shelf sampling hardware as-used-by-professionals works.


As for the hardware sequencers, all they do is play back a sequence of notes. Yes, you can get generic "get you started" sequences, and you can get looped sequences that any monkey can string together and say they did something worth money.
You can also, if you have the brains, create your own sequences and store them for later recall, and you can build an entire song yourself this way that you can choose to play one instrument along with live.

I don't know how much more detailed I can explain it. You'll just have to read up on it and try one out at your local shop.

However, if you already understood all of that and are still opposed to the concept based on nothing more than "I want to see humans with instruments making sound", then there's nothing I can do for you.

I do not understand the argument of "players interacting with one another" and "creating music live", although I admit I've not been to a Jazz Improv, but then again, I saw no mention of that scenario in the original discussion, so it's a non-issue here.