Petition to remove all Zephyr-related threads until SD produce their own demo/s.

[uOpt]

Re: Petition to remove all Zephyr-related threads until SD produce their own demo/s.

Well, 24bit/96kHz would work a lot better than 16 bit/44.1kHz but you would want to have the highest resolution possible to keep aliasing to a minimum... oversampling is pretty much the name of the game when you want to work around the capabilities and shortcomings of anti-aliasing filters when recording a super high resolution source.

I don't think you understand how this works.

And anyway, who here has an audio chain set up to actually play 24 bits anywhere?

 

[Little Pigbacon]

Re: Petition to remove all Zephyr-related threads until SD produce their own demo/s.

nd anyway, who here has an audio chain set up to actually play 24 bits anywhere?

My recording computer can do it. Better soundcard than the one here at my desk. (But only 96kHz! Oh noe!)

The good old Theta DAC is just 16-bit, but it still slaughters everything else I have on 16-bit sources.

 

[jumble jumble]

Re: Petition to remove all Zephyr-related threads until SD produce their own demo/s.

16 to 24 it is an improvement in dynamic range only, not sound quality. 16 bits of dynamic range is more than enough for a guitar demo - in fact it's more than enough for anything, because if the full dynamic range of 16 bit was actually used, then if you set your volume loud enough to hear the quietest parts, the loudest parts would cause permanent hearing damage or worse. If the Zephyr difference is a dynamic range of above 16 bits, then I don't need it as I put my guitar through a guitar amp, which inevitably compresses the signal far beneath that.

As for the super-high sampling rate? Well, 44.1 covers 20Hz - 20kHz. It's possible that some of you may hear sounds above 20kHz; however, I know that I do not, having done the simple test of listening to a sound of increasing frequency until it disappears. For me this happens at 17kHz, about right for my age. My wife can still hear it at 19kHz. So if the Zephyr difference is harmonic content above 20kHz, I don't need it again. I would EQ top end out that was way below that anyway, usually.

I do actually believe the whole thing that the way something feels is important. If it feels good, it changes your playing and you play better. That's fine, it's why all my guitars aren't Squiers. I fully understand that the "feel" might not come across in clips. You're getting the output without having given it the input. And I do intend to try out some Zephyrs for myself when I get the opportunity.

I just think that audio resolution is barking up the wrong tree. I think that a nicely recorded set of clips would still be valuable just so we can hear what they sound like when they're played nicely. The video from NAMM with Frank Falbo playing them on that tele copy, I thought they sounded really nice.

I can't imagine what kind of audio clip could ever blow me away to the point where the pickups immediately seem to be worth $1k. But then, I do have one Squier, and it sounds awesome (it has had the electronics replaced), so why don't I just replace all my guitars with Squier? It's because of the feel of playing them.

Every time this argument comes up, we're told that we won't get it without playing them. I think really it' stupid to go on demanding that we get to hear what they sound like without playing them. The idea of having them in stores for demo use is much, much better. If playing them is the thing that makes them better, then playing them is what we need to sample to see if the claims are true.

Otherwise it's like we've been told a chair is really comfortable, and we all get butthurt because there aren't enough photos of it online for us to judge it for ourselves.

TLDR: the official line is that you won't "get" Zephyr unless you play it - the feel is the thing. If you don't care about feel, only about sound, then it would appear they're not for you. Clips will tell you how they sound, which is like nice, high quality vintage-style pickups. Playing them will tell you how they feel, which is what makes them different. So play them, and report back, or stop going on about them.

 

[0v3nm4n]

Re: Petition to remove all Zephyr-related threads until SD produce their own demo/s.

this thread derailed

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: Petition to remove all Zephyr-related threads until SD produce their own demo/s.

The "You can only feel it, not hear it" statements as an excuse not to bother with clips are straight-out laughin' material! 1) If the Zephyrs will make no audible difference on tape, then they're pointless; what are you paying for? Whatever special tonal characteristics the pickups might have are rendered useless in practice if they won't translate to a professional recording. 2) The same can be said of any pickup demo – that you can't truly put the tone to tape for listeners in such a way that it will give them the "total experience" of the pickup. Does anyone truly believe that the "feel" of "any old pickup" is recordable? It isn't! Yet the "feel" of the Zephyrs is somehow less recordable than something that by definition is not recordable anyhow; what a load of hot, steaming horse **** that is. If Zephyr demos are useless, then so are all pickup demos.

From what people have said about the even, clear, clean "hi-fi" tone and "different" feel of the Zephyrs, they sound like many of the $120 to $140 Wilde Strat and humbucker sets. I'm sure Zephyrs sound great, but the "You can't hear the difference, but you can buy it" attitude is a joke. As I said before, the pickups are just a publicity thing. They're made just to sit there in the catalog and at trade shows and make SD look awesome, not to actually be bought. Proper, extensive demos would likely kill the mystique and openly expose the Zephyrs as sounding no better than competitors' pickups that cost less than 20 percent as much; THAT is why the reluctance/excuses against creating them.

 

[LReese]

Re: Petition to remove all Zephyr-related threads until SD produce their own demo/s.

I'm not buying until Seymour comes out with the Zephyr Gold! Wound with Gold wire.

Silver's not rich enough for my blood - but might be way too rich for my wallet!!!

 

[sosomething]

Re: Petition to remove all Zephyr-related threads until SD produce their own demo/s.

This whole thing is... weird.

Let me get this straight.

These are the most expensive current-production pickups available anywhere. They're made out of extra-special materials and cryogenically treated.

This results in giving them super-extended dynamic range, frequency range, and a "feel" that is better than traditional pickups by an order of magnitude.

It's all so good, in fact, that the true depth of their superiority cannot be demonstrated by current audio streaming technology. You literally must experience them firsthand to understand.

Am I on the right track so far?

And this is supposed to be taken seriously?

Because I'm having a hard time distinguishing what info is actually coming from Seymour Duncan and what is just forum spin and hyperbole from people who, for some reason, seem emotionally invested in justifying the cost of these things with what can only be described as one of the most emperor-has-no-clothes rationales I've seen in recent memory.

This thread would lead me to believe that these pickups are for only the most discerning individuals who are willing to pay the price for the purest, most expressive tone money can buy... As long as they don't understand how digital audio actually works and believe that a guitar amp would produce sounds outside the range of 16-bit audio...

Instead of who they're ACTUALLY for, which are people who will want them and buy them BECAUSE they cost over a thousand dollars.

 

[jumble jumble]

Re: Petition to remove all Zephyr-related threads until SD produce their own demo/s.

See, to me, the key difference between early modellers like the first POD, and a real amp, wasn't that it sounded wrong. If you recorded it and played it back, it sounded indistinguishable from the amp it was modelling, most of the time. But there was latency. It was tiny, but it interfered with the connection between me and the sound, and my playing suffered. That would never come across in clips.

I'm not saying Zephyrs feel better - I've not read enough reports, and I've not tried them myself. I'm just pointing out that there are things that can't be heard in clips, but are still valid reasons to buy something (or in my example, not to buy something).

To be honest I absolutely do not believe that they could sound better to the point where they can be five times as expensive. If they were the best pickups I'd ever heard in my life, I'd pay maybe 50% more. I mean if they have to be that expensive to pay for themselves then fine. But what they cost and what they're worth are different things. From what I've heard so far, they're nice pickups and I'd pay the top end of SD pricing for them.

But with luck, I'll try some at some point. Maybe some will show up on eBay or craigslist or in a pawn shop...

 

[Little Pigbacon]

Re: Petition to remove all Zephyr-related threads until SD produce their own demo/s.

It's all so good, in fact, that the true depth of their superiority cannot be demonstrated by current audio streaming technology. You literally must experience them firsthand to understand.

I have no problem with people justifying the cost of these and buying them with their own money; it certainly helps if they can be honest about their reasons.

I even support the idea of trying them in person. If there's something about them that merits the price as a pickup, having first-person demos ("test drives", if you will) bear it out would be the best way to get this thing the legitimacy it would need to stay afloat.

The 24/192 thing is just silly. Yes, a poor-quality demo doesn't help sell a pickup, but I'm talking about the difference between frying-bacon YouTube video and roughly CD quality. With a CD, I can tell if Diana Krall shaved her pits before going into the studio; so try me.

 

[Dr. Vegetable]

Re: Petition to remove all Zephyr-related threads until SD produce their own demo/s.

16 to 24 it is an improvement in dynamic range only, not sound quality. 16 bits of dynamic range is more than enough for a guitar demo - in fact it's more than enough for anything, because if the full dynamic range of 16 bit was actually used, then if you set your volume loud enough to hear the quietest parts, the loudest parts would cause permanent hearing damage or worse. If the Zephyr difference is a dynamic range of above 16 bits, then I don't need it as I put my guitar through a guitar amp, which inevitably compresses the signal far beneath that.

As for the super-high sampling rate? Well, 44.1 covers 20Hz - 20kHz. It's possible that some of you may hear sounds above 20kHz; however, I know that I do not, having done the simple test of listening to a sound of increasing frequency until it disappears. For me this happens at 17kHz, about right for my age. My wife can still hear it at 19kHz. So if the Zephyr difference is harmonic content above 20kHz, I don't need it again. I would EQ top end out that was way below that anyway, usually...

If your wife can hear frequencies up to 19KHz, then she is only hearing crude square waves out of your 44.1KHz system at those frequencies. Think about how many samples per cycle are being used to represent those high frequency portions of the signal. This is why many audio engineers that I know are very excited about 96KHz and higher sampling rates coming into more widespread use.

Likewise, 16-bit audio may sound like a lot of dynamic range, but those quietest signals are again reduced to 1-bit square waves. I don't know if you've ever listened to an audio signal recorded at 8-bit resolution, but it sure does start to sound grainy very quickly as notes decay. If you want to talk dynamic range, realize that those low level signals are being severely distorted by your 16-bit DAC.

Digital signals are not perfect up until they hit the Nyquist frequency - there is a continuous degradation of signal quality across the amplitude/frequency spectrum.

 

[AudioWonderland]

Re: Petition to remove all Zephyr-related threads until SD produce their own demo/s.

Why do I need a demo of $800 pickups that I will never buy? Pass...

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: Petition to remove all Zephyr-related threads until SD produce their own demo/s.

+1

Zephyr Silver is already old hat. I want some of the new, secret Gold/Titanium ones that Crusty posted about in The Un-Intelligence Group.

Oops. Was I not supposed to mention those? D'oh!

 

[sosomething]

Re: Petition to remove all Zephyr-related threads until SD produce their own demo/s.

Don't get me wrong. I think the things are really cool as a proof of concept. But given that the benefits of these pickups are so minute that they literally don't translate across digital media as discernible from a set of pickups costing 10x less, I find the line of diminishing returns has been crossed, retraced, and crossed again.

For me, anyway.

That's not to say a set won't one day find its way into one of my guitars... Just that I probably won't be buying them with actual dollars.

 

[Scott Olson]

Re: Petition to remove all Zephyr-related threads until SD produce their own demo/s.

Hey guys, first of all thanks very much for the feedback. We appreciate it.

Now I generally agree that there is a big component of feeling the Zephyr and it's hard to really capture it all with a $100 microphone and through a computer sound system. But I do believe that you deserve the best demo we can come up with - certainly the tonal characteristics, harmonics and sustain will come across in a video. While the attack and feel of the pickups can't be conveyed, I'm sure you will at least get a starting idea.

I also want to be clear, the Zephyr wasn't created to be the most expensive pickups just so they could be the most expensive pickup. We just asked ourselves if we didn't worry about the material cost and could create something unique, what it be like? The Zephyr was the result and no it's not for everyone. For one it's expensive and you may listen to it and find the dynamic range and the way the notes come out to be harsh. Others like Oprheo (and now Slash and his guitarist) simply love the tone and feel and fall in love. The Zephyr is the only product in which the cost of creating it was ignored for what we could up with and it's just another option. You may find after trying it that you would never pay 5X the cost for a set of Zephyr's but there are some people who would and like all pickups it's simply another option. I trust that you guys understand that we would love to bring the cost of the Zephyr down to where more people could afford it.

I apologize that a high-quality Zephyr video hasn't been our focus, we've been meaning to return to promoting the Zephyr but have been caught up in other things. I did post the video that Orpheo/Peter did while they were here though the quality isn't as good as it needs to be: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Poq4jpALJQ

I hear you all loud and clear though and I will start the wheels moving on a Zephyr demo. Next time we do a SDUGF get together we will have to get the Zephyr out there so you can all play it and decide for yourselves.

I think it's time we do an SDUGF Zephyr Giveaway. This is definitely coming soon.

 

[crusty philtrum]

Re: Petition to remove all Zephyr-related threads until SD produce their own demo/s.

I have no problem with having to take them for a test run in person. Please point me to a location where I can do that.

Oh, it's a problem because I'm down here in Australia ? OK, that's cool. Please point one of the USA forum members to a loctaion where they can experience these pickups in person (other than at the SD company building).

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: Petition to remove all Zephyr-related threads until SD produce their own demo/s.

Crusty. The Zephyr Silver is last year's model. We all want your "secret" gold/titanium design.

 

[uOpt]

Re: Petition to remove all Zephyr-related threads until SD produce their own demo/s.

If your wife can hear frequencies up to 19KHz, then she is only hearing crude square waves out of your 44.1KHz system at those frequencies.

Uh, man.

You understand what the difference between a "square" wave and a sine wave is, right?

And I put "square" in quote because the same reason prevents a true square from ever appearing in an audio system.

 

[Dr. Vegetable]

Re: Petition to remove all Zephyr-related threads until SD produce their own demo/s.

Uh, man.

You understand what the difference between a "square" wave and a sine wave is, right?

And I put "square" in quote because the same reason prevents a true square from ever appearing in an audio system.

Of course. But your sound card DAC sure as snowflakes isn't putting out nicely formed sine waves, either. And it doesn't change the underlying premise - most natural sounds are more complex than either a sine wave or a square wave or a distorted version of either one.

The higher frequency the signal, the fewer samples per cycle are being used to represent it in a fixed bitrate system. So higher frequencies are not as nicely reproduced as lower frequencies, and this degradation gets worse as you get closer to Nyquist. Many people seem to think you can go right up to Nyquist before you suddenly fall off a cliff, but that's not how it works.

Same for bit resolution/depth. Try it yourself sometime - record your guitar with only 8 bit audio and see how crappy the signal sounds when it gets quiet. This is what happens to the low dynamics in your signal in the digital domain. They are represented with fewer bits, and so are not reproduced with the same fidelity as a full-scale signal.

So again, not all components of your signal receive the same benefits of being digitized. You can hear these effects long before the numbers say you should.

 

[uOpt]

Re: Petition to remove all Zephyr-related threads until SD produce their own demo/s.

I was specifically addressing what you said about the square wave at 15KHz.

That doesn't matter since the difference between a square and a sine wave is overtones. The first overtone of 15K is 30K and even a person who can hear 15K can't hear that.

That means even if you have a signal chain with speaker capable of projecting -say- up to 250 KHz and would put out a 15K square it would still sound precisely like a 15K sine to that person.

I wasn't commenting on resolution. It's pretty clear where you need more bits and where you don't, I don't think there is a dispute.

 

[Little Pigbacon]

Re: Petition to remove all Zephyr-related threads until SD produce their own demo/s.

Of course. But your sound card DAC sure as snowflakes isn't putting out nicely formed sine waves, either. And it doesn't change the underlying premise - most natural sounds are more complex than either a sine wave or a square wave or a distorted version of either one.

Those signals can all be expressed as the sums of sinusoidal signals.