Phat Cat + ? + Seth Lover

[ambivalence]

Re: Phat Cat + ? + Seth Lover

I'm almost there, guys, thanks. I've decided that it will be Seth Lover on the neck, 100%, but not sure about these final combinations:

1. Phat Cat Bridge + Phat Cat Neck + Seth Lover Neck.
2. Seth Lover Bridge + Phat Cat Neck + Seth Lover Neck.
3. Some Low-Output Bridge + Phat Cat Bridge + Seth Lover Neck (thanks, Clint 55).

As for Phat Cat Bridge in the middle -- I'm just not sure what the sound would be. I saw videos with the neck model in the middle only and it was interesting. The bridge model sounds pretty unusual to my ear, pretty bright with no bass at all. Maybe I will be wrong here, but Seth Lover Bridge sounds familiar to it (both are vintage-like alinco II, pretty same DCR), although it has a lot more lows (honestly, it seems more pleasant to me, according to the SD's official soundbites).

As for JB in the bridge, I just dunno. Probably it won't work for me as I won't play any distortion stuff. I've read that low-output pups are more suitable for clean stuff. However, I've liked how JB sounds as well as Whole Lotta Humbucker (again, according to SD's recordings).

Please give your opinions about these 3 sets. If you're more into the 3rd option, please tell me what bridge pup will fit my needs.

 

[gregory]

Re: Phat Cat + ? + Seth Lover

I think you're taking a risk. I'd opt for something more powerful with an RG350.

When I choose sets with cleans in mind I like to begin with the neck and go from there. For you a nice jazz tone that is full and bright in that particular guitar is of utmost importance. That would be the PAF Joe or PAF Pro (which is a little more full in the bass and midrange to help compensate for the extra two frets)


Bridge: Gravity Storm Neck for P90-style snarl or The Breed Neck to give you more power in the bottom end that still has a bright top end.

Middle: Virtual Vintage 54 Pro or Injector Neck; possibly Injector Bridge w/The Breed Neck in the bridge, depending on what you want in position 2 (bridge + middle).

Neck: PAF Joe with the Gravity Storm Neck, or PAF Pro with The Breed Neck.


Medium to high output pickups, especially those designed by DiMarzio have a proven track record in 24-fret basswood Ibanezes with double-locking 2-stud trems and thin wizard necks. Seth Lovers and Phat Cats: not so much.

 

[elelpe]

Re: Phat Cat + ? + Seth Lover

It's ok to use a rock/metal looking axe like RG as a platform for playing clean exclusively. I'd go with A2Pro bridge, Phat Cat neck in the middle, and Seth Lover neck.

 

[gregory]

Re: Phat Cat + ? + Seth Lover

It will likely need to be routed to accommodate a Phat Cat in the middle.

I bet BriGuy1968 has a good handle on how cleans are on the average basswood RG using A2-loaded vintage output pickups. He probably has suggestions for something by GFS that is similar to a Phat Cat in a single-coil form factor as well.

Anyway, here are a list of some guitars. Which of the following most closely resemble the ones that were demoed with a Seth Lover Neck?

http://ibanez.wikia.com/wiki/ARZ200
http://ibanez.wikia.com/wiki/SZ320
http://ibanez.wikia.com/wiki/FRM150
http://ibanez.wikia.com/wiki/RG350DX
http://ibanez.wikia.com/wiki/S521

The specs between the body wood and shape, neck dimensions, and tail they are all very different; and this still doesn't account for the variance between individual guitars.

Before paying a premium for premium pickups on a first electric guitar, I recommend playing it safe by getting something less expensive that is still based on a PAF with an A2 magnet for the neck and something like an Alnico II Pro humbucker for the bridge. If they sound good you're money ahead. If they are in the ballpark but not quite there then try something slightly different. If they don't work, be happy it only cost $150 and not $300.

 

[Clint 55]

Re: Phat Cat + ? + Seth Lover

High output bridge buckers being only for distortion is false. There are advantages for hot and vintage output buckers for both clean and dirty playing. I always play clean and I prefer hot bridge pups because they give me a fuller sound. While others like lower output because it allows more clarity and treble. A bonus for me and my high output JB is that it sits at exactly the same height as the PC and Seth.

 

[ambivalence]

Re: Phat Cat + ? + Seth Lover

Although it's nice to know I have alternatives, but it becomes really overwhelming for me to compare even more pups of some other brand with the SD's sets I've described above -- it requires more time, greater experience and there are some international shipping costs that bothers me (one more reason I need to choose carefully).

The Ibanez I've mentioned in this topic is the guitar of my youth, all-new and almost forgotten. It's just happened for me to have it; I'm not really into electrics and probably I wouldn't bother, if I'd had no "axe" at all. Nevertheless, I've found it recently, and now it's just a pure interest for me, if I could adopt it for my style: no matter how shreddy it looks, it's the guitarist making the sound, not the guitar by itself, putting the brands and forms aside. I guess, if it won't work, I'll just sell it with all the pups (both new and stock) and, who knows, maybe I'll buy a new, a proper one then (is it something wrong with basswood?). In the case this Ibanez will work fine, I guess there would be no sense for me spending money on new gear.

Clint 55, what is about the height? I saw some mentions about it, but not sure how people should know the pup's height before they actually order and try it. The highter the pup, the more output you get?

Will I be able to use PC's RWRP neck quality with, let's say, Alinco II Pro, JB or Seth Lover Neck?

 

[BriGuy1968]

Re: Phat Cat + ? + Seth Lover

I bet BriGuy1968 has a good handle on how cleans are on the average basswood RG using A2-loaded vintage output pickups. He probably has suggestions for something by GFS that is similar to a Phat Cat in a single-coil form factor as well.

While I do own an average basswood RG that sounds great clean, it's a dual-humbucker setup and I have relatively high output p'ups in it - GFS Dream 180s which, according to their website, don't appear to be wound all that hot based on their DC resistance, but they're pretty darned loud compared to other pickups I have with similar specs and easily keep up with something like my JB/Jazz set (thus the DCR debate).

I'm almost there, guys, thanks. I've decided that it will be Seth Lover on the neck, 100%, but not sure about these final combinations:

1. Phat Cat Bridge + Phat Cat Neck + Seth Lover Neck.
2. Seth Lover Bridge + Phat Cat Neck + Seth Lover Neck.
3. Some Low-Output Bridge + Phat Cat Bridge + Seth Lover Neck (thanks, Clint 55).

As for Phat Cat Bridge in the middle -- I'm just not sure what the sound would be. I saw videos with the neck model in the middle only and it was interesting. The bridge model sounds pretty unusual to my ear, pretty bright with no bass at all. Maybe I will be wrong here, but Seth Lover Bridge sounds familiar to it (both are vintage-like alinco II, pretty same DCR), although it has a lot more lows (honestly, it seems more pleasant to me, according to the SD's official soundbites).

As for JB in the bridge, I just dunno. Probably it won't work for me as I won't play any distortion stuff. I've read that low-output pups are more suitable for clean stuff. However, I've liked how JB sounds as well as Whole Lotta Humbucker (again, according to SD's recordings).

Please give your opinions about these 3 sets. If you're more into the 3rd option, please tell me what bridge pup will fit my needs.

Hi ambivalence... I got your request to weigh in, so here I am. This thread actually caught my eye when it was first started because I'm in currently working on a project of my own which is an HSH guitar in which I plan to use a GFS Mean 90 in the neck. When I read, however, that you were thinking of having the Phat Cat in the bridge and a humbucker in the neck I moved on just because it wasn't really relevant to my own project.

That being said, you have an interesting idea here which has some merit in my opinion. For a bridge pickup, at least to me, the Seth Lover seems like a pretty obvious safe choice since it's designed to go with the Seth Lover neck for output and voicing. The Phat Cat in the bridge will bring in a little more of that single-coil vibe if that's what you like and would seemingly also be a good fit. Given what you said in your last post about the choices becoming overwhelming, I think I'd stick to those two options instead of introducing another bridge p'up choice to the mix. (Although I have to agree with Clint 55 about the JB being great clean... I really like mine too).

I'm more concerned about your choice of middle pickups to be honest. Not so much the pickup itself because I'm sure a Phat Cat would sound great there, but because you're going to have to rout the center pickup cavity from a single to a humbucker in order to make it work. If you have the skills and tools to do it, great... go for it! If you lack one or the other though (for instance I have neither the tools nor the woodworking skills to do it), then you should probably stick to a standard sized single coil... and if you go with a Phat Cat in the bridge then make it RWRP so that it will be hum-canceling in switch position 2.

As for recommendations, I honestly have limited experience with single coils but it seems to me like you'd want to have something that was relatively high output (for a single coil) in order to keep up. From S-D, the only single coil experience I have is a Hot Stack neck that I used to have in the middle position of my HSH (paired with a JB/Jazz combo) which had trouble keeping up volume-wise, but I'm sure it would be great with a lower output set like what your'e talking about, and the stack would be quieter than a standard single coil. From GFS I have a set of their Gold Foil Singles which sound really cool but are the quietest set of pickups I own, so I'm not sure how well they'd work for you in this instance. I'm planning to try one of their Brighton Rock single coils in the project I'm working on, but I honestly have no idea yet whether or not I'll like it!

Not sure how much more help I can be, but if you think of anything just ask... I'll be happy to give you my opinions. Just remember that most of the things that everyone is saying to you about the choices are OPINIONS and not hard fact. You might like a sound that I hate or vice versa. When it comes right down to it, YOU are the only one who has to like it. It feels to me like you're on the edge of over-thinking this project... go with what your gut is telling you!

 

[gregory]

Re: Phat Cat + ? + Seth Lover

is it something wrong with basswood?

I find basswood can vary quite a bit. They tend to be resonant in the lower mids. Knock on yours in addition to playing it acoustically and you'll be able to get a good idea of its character.

One of mine has been particularly finicky with vintage output single coils as well as a JB. With with single-sized neck humbuckers and any number of medium output pickups in the bridge it sounds fantastic. The neck has 22 frets and is something like 23mm. The RG has been taken a step further with a 24 fret wizard neck. That and the fact that it is a bolt-on will put a Seth Lover at a significant disadvantage, causing it to sound quite different than it does in a Les Paul, for example.

My best basswood guitar is a 24-fret EBMM Silhouette also has a double locking trem and a fat maple neck. It has a Breed Neck in the bridge and a PAF Pro in the neck (as I've recommended). It has very nice cleans for a diverse range of music.

Regarding the middle pickup, the Injector Bridge has more of a P90 character than a typical hot single coil: strong lows and powerful mids with a smooth top end. The Injector Neck is leaner in the bass and has a nice even midrange with a bright but still smooth top end when played in the bridge spot. In the neck it is full and chunky but not nasally or dark. Split the difference for the middle position. The VV 54 Pro is just like the description says on the DiMarzio website.

A lot of PAF Pros have been made and can be found on the used market for $50- $60, sometimes less.
Used Injector Necks and Bridges are not as common but they can still be found for $50-$60. The necks seem to come up more often than the bridges.
The Breed Neck is a little harder to find used, but again, they typically go for $50-$60.
VV 54 Pros are very hard to find on the used market, but when they are they command a higher price.

Of the Seth Lover clips you heard that you liked, what guitars was it in?

 

[ambivalence]

Re: Phat Cat + ? + Seth Lover

Hey, guys. I've finally ordered the set of phat cats (for middle/bridge) and SH-55n (Seth Lover) to place it in the neck. However, the official support cannot help me with all the wiring stuff – they do not have this kind of diagram. What are my options with 5-way switch, 1 tone and 1 volume? Probably, I can ask my tech guy to set up one more potentiometer, if needed. The Seth Lover I've ordered has 4 conductors and Phat Cats, as far as I know, have only one wire each. Is it possible to have bridge + seth lover mixing together? Please, share your experience (and the diagram if you have one).

Overall, these are my hopes. Comment on them, please (especially, if something impossible to achieve):

1. Neck Only (seth lover).
2. Middle Only (phat cat neck)
3. Bridge Only (phat cat bridge)
4. Neck + Middle (not important, but would be nice to have)
5. Neck + Bridge (the most important)
6. Bridge + Middle. That one advertised hum-cancelling rw/rp position.

upd:

the default wiring diagram, if needed.

A lot of PAF Pros have been made and can be found on the used market for $50- $60, sometimes less.
Used Injector Necks and Bridges are not as common but they can still be found for $50-$60. The necks seem to come up more often than the bridges.
The Breed Neck is a little harder to find used, but again, they typically go for $50-$60.
VV 54 Pros are very hard to find on the used market, but when they are they command a higher price.

Of the Seth Lover clips you heard that you liked, what guitars was it in?

I've decided to give SD's low-outut pups a shot, because the used pickups are selling separately, so probably they would cost almost the same to me considering shipping charges. Speaking of Seth Lover videos, it was nothing in particular. It just sounded lovely + it would be great to try a microphonic pup, with no wax-potting. There were so many reviews like «it's the best PAF ever (not including the antiquity)», so I cannot stand.

However, I do fell a bit akward about the guitar. I've seen somewhere that basswood is suitable for high-outputs only, that its wood doesn't have it's own character to put low output pups in it. But… I'm just trying to play with the cards of my own. If/when I decide to buy some new guitar with a different wood, at least, there will be the experience to compare with.

 

[ambivalence]

Re: Phat Cat + ? + Seth Lover

current state.

 

[gregory]

Re: Phat Cat + ? + Seth Lover

How do you see yourself accessing all 6 combinations since there are only 5 positions on a 5-way?

 

[ambivalence]

Re: Phat Cat + ? + Seth Lover

I guess, there should be some way to add a potentiometer for the neck to mix it up with the cats in any position. Is it possible? If so, is it possible to add a potentiometer /plus/ some switch to turn it on whatever volume is set? It should be more convenient to get the neck's sound without twirling the knob. I know nothing about it – just saw some video on the net with this kind of wiring, so if I'm wrong here, please, tell me. I'd be glad to see any versatile variant that comes to your mind.

 

[gregory]

Re: Phat Cat + ? + Seth Lover

I'd use a 5-way and put a push/pull pot in place of one of the existing controls (either volume or tone).

I'd get a 5-way Super Switch and wire it up as follows:
1: bridge
2: bridge+middle
3: middle (or bridge+neck using the push-pull pot)
4: neck+middle
5: neck

I'm not a fan of independent volume, which is what you'd need to fade a neck pickup in or out. I'm also not a fan of using a switch to add a pickup for two reasons: the redundant switch position and I don't care for the sound of all three pickups on at the same time; it's blurry/without clarity or definition. However, these are additional ways to get neck+bridge.

 

[ambivalence]

Re: Phat Cat + ? + Seth Lover

But what if I don't want to lose nither a tone, nor a volume controller? Should I use a 3-way switch then? I mean, to play with the cats alone and have an additional potentiometer to add the neck in the mix? It's really not a problem to put a new pot, there's some spare space and It won't bother me in any way.

And speaking about your suggestion… did you mean that the third position will be either the middle pup (phat cat neck only), or that one bridge-neck combo? Because it's clear that I want both of these options.

Moreover, I still don't know if it possible to make a combo out of neck + middle (like in the forth position you've suggested). Phat Cat Neck has only one wire and it's RW/RP – wouldn't it be a problem, wouldn't they be out of phase? I'm speaking about the-additional-potentiometer wiring too, not only the switch wiring.

ps.
I don't want to use all the three pups too, but I'd prefer to have this option without using it rather than lose some of the controllers, buying a new advanced switch and having to choose between the middle pickup and the neck+bridge combo. I'm sorry if I didn't get it right somewhere. At least, I'd like to know all the limitations and all the possibilities. The wiring cheme itself would be a bless, so I'm not even speaking about it.

 

[gregory]

Re: Phat Cat + ? + Seth Lover

But what if I don't want to lose nither a tone, nor a volume controller?

The push-pull is part of the control. You give up nothing.

Should I use a 3-way switch then? I mean, to play with the cats alone and have an additional potentiometer to add the neck in the mix? It's really not a problem to put a new pot, there's some spare space and It won't bother me in any way.

You would lose bridge+middle with a 3-way.

And speaking about your suggestion… did you mean that the third position will be either the middle pup (phat cat neck only), or that one bridge-neck combo? Because it's clear that I want both of these options.

Yes, you will get both. My suggestion gives you the six options that you requested with minimal effort in getting from one option to the other.

Some guys like to turn cartwheels in order to get from one combination to another just so they can get some additional sounds that aren't very good. For what it's worth, I think the six sounds you're wanting are all solid. Playing with the four wires from the Seth might be tempting, but I don't think it would be worth the extra complication, at all.

Moreover, I still don't know if it possible to make a combo out of neck + middle (like in the forth position you've suggested). Phat Cat Neck has only one wire and it's RW/RP – wouldn't it be a problem, wouldn't they be out of phase? I'm speaking about the-additional-potentiometer wiring too, not only the switch wiring.

There will be no issues with phase. You'll only get hum, which you will already have when using either the bridge or neck by themselves or when you combine the middle and neck. You will also get hum when you combine the bridge and neck (position three with whichever control you would like to be push-pull, in the case of my suggestion).

buying a new advanced switch and having to choose between the middle pickup and the neck+bridge combo.

You would have to buy a new control one way or another, so why not also get a 5-Way Super Switch in order to have an elegant solution? They aren't expensive. If you were to put a third control in, I'd recommend it be an additional tone pot and discuss what it should control.

The wiring cheme itself would be a bless

I'd be happy to draw one up for you, or at least the pinout which shouldn't be hard to follow.

 

[ambivalence]

Re: Phat Cat + ? + Seth Lover

It seems that I didn't get the idea, but… hopefully, now I do. That push-pull controller you're talking about -- it's a kind of another switch that will affect the sound getting out from the 3rd position, right? Could you show me what does it look like: is it twirly kind of potentiomter or just, you know, «turn on/off» one? I'd be glad if you could kindly draw it, because I really don't have a clue. I hope I could find this magic switch in local stores.

ps.
Is it «Fender 5-WAY SUPER SWITCH»? It costs about 45$ locally, damn. upd: found for 30$.

 

[gregory]

Re: Phat Cat + ? + Seth Lover

Is it «Fender 5-WAY SUPER SWITCH»? It costs about 45$ locally, damn.

That's too bad. They're $15-$20 in the US the last time I checked.

You can't get this one?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/True-Custo...620972?hash=item2845bbb3ac:g:GK8AAOSwDTNaurSp

push-pull pots:
https://www.fralinpickups.com/2017/03/29/push-pull-pots-mods/

 

[ambivalence]

Re: Phat Cat + ? + Seth Lover

upd: found for 30$.

Hopefully, I've found it a bit cheaper, but anyway… ebay + shipping will cost almost the same.

 

[gregory]

Re: Phat Cat + ? + Seth Lover

I saw that shipping was extra for international orders.

I figure you're already paying a premium on a Seth Lover, so why not spend the extra on a more versatile switch.

 

[ambivalence]

Re: Phat Cat + ? + Seth Lover

Already ordering it. It will be here in 2 days, with a push-pull pot (choosing one). Thanks for your help and for the scheme too. It makes this all a lot easier.

upd:
just found this thing: Fender S-1 Switch, which could save the pickguard from additional holes. Trying to find it localy. Going to get one, if it fits standard 6mm knobs and not overpriced.