Problems Playing Through the PA....

[kmcguitars]

Re: Problems Playing Through the PA....

Why to people think that sound guys are magicians?
You can only fix so much in the mix-
and as I said before, you can't make chicken salad out of chicken squat.

I'm sorry marvar, Didn't mean what I said as a blanket statement. There are some Pro audio engineers out there, Then others who have no business tuning in a AM/FM radio running boards.:eyecrazy: For the most part, I seem to encounter the later More so than the former. I've done sound for bands,And you have to be on top of a lot of things. If your getting a bad signal from the stage? The 1st place to resolve it is at the source. If for whatever reason it cannot be fixed on the stage? THAN, You go back to the board & tweak the trim gain ,EQ or add some compression. I've never been to a worship gig,But I imagine not every parish has a pro audio engineer volunteering his services, But rather another parishioner w/t dubious credentials giving it his best go?

 

[marvar]

Re: Problems Playing Through the PA....

I'm sorry marvar, Didn't mean what I said as a blanket statement. There are some Pro audio engineers out there, Then others who have no business tuning in a AM/FM radio running boards.:eyecrazy: For the most part, I seem to encounter the later More so than the former. I've done sound for bands,And you have to be on top of a lot of things. If your getting a bad signal from the stage? The 1st place to resolve it is at the source. If for whatever reason it cannot be fixed on the stage? THAN, You go back to the board & tweak the trim gain ,EQ or add some compression. I've never been to a worship gig,But I imagine not every parish has a pro audio engineer volunteering his services, But rather another parishioner w/t dubious credentials giving it his best go?

We're cool-
Sometimes I forget that others don't have my knowledge and experience.
I agree there are some tone deaf FOH worship engineers out there, but hey, they are usually volunteers, trying to serve the best way they can.
I'm lucky that I'm paid and furnished insurance, for doing something I love, and in some small way, I'm providing a ministry. We also do a TV broadcast, so I really have to have my game face on.
I just get tired of people always blaming the FOH engineer for everything, when often it isn't his fault, or he isn't aware of the problem- I know I'm very busy, I have 8 choir mics, up to 11 wireless mics, the podium, the piano and organ, and any Cd's or tapes to be used, an Orchestra, etc. all the while, with 3 monitor mixes, the house mix and the TV mix.

You should be able to go to the engineer, tell him what you want to hear, how you want to hear it, and any suggestions you might have. He then should be able to tell you what he can and can't do. I also highly recommend he get a copy of the Yamaha book about audio for worship.
If you approach him in Christian love, and just keep the theme that you are trying to have the best worship experience available to the audience, and that all of you are doing God's calling.

 

[ratherdashing]

Re: Problems Playing Through the PA....

Ah, it's the monthly "I can't get good tone in my church" thread.

I've played gigs in places where the PA looks like it did a couple tours in Fallujah and the "sound engineer" was basically the first guy lured out of the alley with the promise of a free highball, but I've never consistently had as many problems as you churchies seem to.

I keep seeing a few recurring themes in these threads:

"I need my stage volume to be quiet." How quiet are we talking about? There's a drummer there, right? As long as you're not overpowering the drums, what's the problem?

"The sound engineer is a jerk/moron." Okay, that happens all over the place, but why does it seem to happen way more often at a church? I suspect it has a bit to do with the stage volume thing: if your amp is down so low that it needs huge reinforcement, you're pretty much at the mercy of this bozo. I'm also guessing that aside from the sound guys who work the gigantic churches that have a budget for this sort of thing these guys aren't paid, right? Here's the thing though: sound guys at clubs (especially crappy ones) are lucky if they make enough money to pay their tab. If your church can scrounge up $50 a week, you can probably coax a semi-competent guy to do sound for you, assuming he's not too hung over on Sunday morning.

I kinda get the sense that these churches want "rock music" but don't want everything that is supposed to go with it, namely loud amps and proper sound reinforcement. I'm of the "do it right or don't do it at all" mindset when it comes to this sort of thing, and I'm willing to bet God is too.

 

[J Moose]

Re: Problems Playing Through the PA....

That's the funny part. Before we are unmuted from the house (monitors and FoH), I turn my amp up a bit to basically play a bit and noodle around. It sounds great to me. That's what made me believe it was the sound man who needed to do the tweaking on his end...

So put a mic on the amp... problem solved.

Honestly I never take the DI from Line6 stuff even in a live situation. Always but always a mic. Don't trust the DI's... too many problems over time & they always sound a little funky to me. Usually a murky & wooly bottom-end with a pinched nasal top.

Honestly what you're describing might be some sorta clipping, too hot a signal somewhere... but it might also be a line that's single-ended. What that means is that one of the three pins on an XLR (or TRS) is disconnected... and that'll be distorted, harsh, scratchy & lack bottom end.

What it is exactly can't be figured out over the interknot... you gotta set aside an hour or so to talk & work with the engineer to figure it out.

 

[ImmortalSix]

Re: Problems Playing Through the PA....

Marvar,

I understand what you're saying. This system is a totally different system that the one at my last church. It's much higher quality and more complex. I saw VU meters so I don't think it's digital. I also know that it's not all about me. I've been playing for a pretty long time and my job is to help enhance the overall worship experience; not to monopolize it, so I know where you're coming from. Our sound man is good and he's a good guy. I think it's going to take tweaking from my end as well as his.

Do you recommend different settings when going direct than when miced? I have thought about throwing an SM-57 in front of my amp. Being that it is a modeling amp, I never felt the need like I did with my tube amps. However, he has said, in the past, that he would rather mic me than have me go direct.

Butch, I close mic'd a modeling hybrid amp at my last P&W gig. I ran an SM57 on a 1x8" combo amp (VOX AD15VT) every Sunday for a year, and the PA'd sound was excellent.

Granted, both the sound guy and I were very comfortable with an SM57 on an amp as we'd both done that a time or two before. :laughing:

I ran the amp very quiet, 2-digit decibels for sure, and the tone was very full and warm and clear.

If I was in your spot, I'd go for a mic out front.

-Hunter

 

[Reload in 5]

Re: Problems Playing Through the PA....

"I need my stage volume to be quiet." How quiet are we talking about? There's a drummer there, right? As long as you're not overpowering the drums, what's the problem?

"The sound engineer is a jerk/moron." Okay, that happens all over the place, but why does it seem to happen way more often at a church? I suspect it has a bit to do with the stage volume thing: if your amp is down so low that it needs huge reinforcement, you're pretty much at the mercy of this bozo. I'm also guessing that aside from the sound guys who work the gigantic churches that have a budget for this sort of thing these guys aren't paid, right?

I kinda get the sense that these churches want "rock music" but don't want everything that is supposed to go with it, namely loud amps and proper sound reinforcement. I'm of the "do it right or don't do it at all" mindset when it comes to this sort of thing, and I'm willing to bet God is too.

You are correct that the sound guys at my church arent paid. Heres where the issue comes in.
The church was built, set up, and run with piano / organ for so long, thats what the sound guys know. Add in amps and drums and they arent comfortable anymore.
So we run NO amps. Sound is great at our church. I have no issues with it.
Main worship center we use pods, and electronic drums.
Youth worship we have acoustic drums, and run our amps. Balance out the amps and drums, use the PA for vocals and acoustic.

 

[JOLLY]

Re: Problems Playing Through the PA....

Problem solved.

 

[Butch Snyder]

Re: Problems Playing Through the PA....

Wow, a lot of different opinions and experiences here. First off, Let's level-set a bit. I have been playing for over 30 years. I've been playing out for almost as many years. I know my instrument and how to achieve the tone I want. I hear mic the amp and don't mic the amp. I'll try both ways. as far as moving the PA speakers, that's not going to happen. The church's sound system is a $500,000 system that was designed as the church sanctuary was designed. Nothing's getting moved.

As far as the monthly, "my tone in church stinks" comment. That didn't even need to be said. Referring to players who play in praise and worship environments as "churchies"? Come on - that doesn't add anything to the conversation either.

I have been playing in this type of setting for a long time. I'm not a novice. This is the first time though, that I have experienced this type of challenge with regard to tone. I'm not whining and it's not about me. I just want to add a nice blend to the mix and a clean tone when it's called for.

 

[guitfiddle]

Re: Problems Playing Through the PA....

Sounds to me like the problem a lot of sound guys run into...wanting to put everything through the pa and keep the volume onstage super low. The idea to me is reinforcement...that is to say that you only need to boost what you're not getting enough of.

See if he'll let you run the amp the way you like, then only give enough to the FOH and monitors to balance it all out. It's an open back cab, so it should disperse pretty well. Does the drummer hit hard at all?

 

[Butch Snyder]

Re: Problems Playing Through the PA....

Sounds to me like the problem a lot of sound guys run into...wanting to put everything through the pa and keep the volume onstage super low. The idea to me is reinforcement...that is to say that you only need to boost what you're not getting enough of.

See if he'll let you run the amp the way you like, then only give enough to the FOH and monitors to balance it all out. It's an open back cab, so it should disperse pretty well. Does the drummer hit hard at all?

I guess I have let the wrong idea get into everybody's head. Our monitor's are loud - loud enough that I can't hear the drums acoustically. They're not behind plexiglass either. We also have a full orchestra onstage with us. When I say quiet, I mean that I want my guitar's volume coming from the monitors and not my amp.

 

[ehdwuld]

Re: Problems Playing Through the PA....

my GNX has similar issues
it has to do with the "Speaker Simulation"
I dont know how Line 6 employs it
but on mine
if going into a real speaker
you have to turn off speaker simulation used for headphones and direct recording
it compresses and adds speaker "dynamics" to the output

turn it off or on
or whatever it is now swap it to the other

 

[some_dude]

Re: Problems Playing Through the PA....

Now, that's what I call an altar.

Problem solved.

 

[cronnin]

Re: Problems Playing Through the PA....

Just put all the EQ, volume, gain knobs at noon, and tell the mixer guy to do the same.
That's a good starting point

Maybe those speakers are placed high up and you don't get high frequencies attenuated in the mass of people like it used to be before?
Change cab simulation on your Flextone.
Change the mic position from direct to angled, if your FX has that?

 

[guitfiddle]

Re: Problems Playing Through the PA....

Our monitor's are loud - loud enough that I can't hear the drums acoustically. They're not behind plexiglass either. We also have a full orchestra onstage with us. When I say quiet, I mean that I want my guitar's volume coming from the monitors and not my amp.

That's loud for monitors. I usually only like enough to double my amp in my ears.

I mean, if there is an eq/input level problem in the monitors, it's gonna be exagerated by the volume, and just maybe you'd get rid of it by running the amp hot, with less of the offending monitor eq.

 

[Butch Snyder]

Re: Problems Playing Through the PA....

my GNX has similar issues
it has to do with the "Speaker Simulation"
I dont know how Line 6 employs it
but on mine
if going into a real speaker
you have to turn off speaker simulation used for headphones and direct recording
it compresses and adds speaker "dynamics" to the output

turn it off or on
or whatever it is now swap it to the other

I don't know how to turn my speaker simulator off. I guess Line 6 calls it cabinet simulation. I'll have to research that.

 

[Butch Snyder]

Re: Problems Playing Through the PA....

Okay, I found out how to turn cab simulation off. You have to do it through the Line 6 Edit interface.

 

[cronnin]

Re: Problems Playing Through the PA....

Nice, try some other cabs, mics, and axis positions.

 

[J Moose]

Re: Problems Playing Through the PA....

I guess I have let the wrong idea get into everybody's head. Our monitor's are loud - loud enough that I can't hear the drums acoustically. They're not behind plexiglass either. We also have a full orchestra onstage with us. When I say quiet, I mean that I want my guitar's volume coming from the monitors and not my amp.

If the stage volume is that loud, why would you release total control over YOUR sound and level to the engineers? Why not use the amp the way amps are intended to be used? As a monitor for the player.

Or am I missing something?

If you have the option to be in full control, and you willingly relinquish that control then you have no right to ***** about anything.

 

[Butch Snyder]

Re: Problems Playing Through the PA....

If the stage volume is that loud, why would you release total control over YOUR sound and level to the engineers? Why not use the amp the way amps are intended to be used? As a monitor for the player.

Or am I missing something?

If you have the option to be in full control, and you willingly relinquish that control then you have no right to ***** about anything.

No, you're right. But what I'm trying to do is eliminate the extreme brightness, bad distortion and squealy feedback I'm getting.

 

[ParameterMan]

Re: Problems Playing Through the PA....

It's really hard to guess what might be going on without hearing it for myself, but hey! this is the internet! Musings:

It does sound like you may be clipping the preamp on the board. The board ought to be able to take the line level signal from the XLR outs on the back of the Flextone without distorting. And if it can't for some bizarre reason, the sound guy should be letting you know. Or, it could be extra treble, either from the board or the monitor rig, revealing the grit that normally hides under a smooth high-end response.

The monitor setup on stage is undoubtedly EQ'ed to provide a clear and crisp sound for unprocessed vocals, so a nice bright and grindy guitar sound is going to be completely over the top. Unfortunately, if they have the monitor auxes pre-EQ, any changes sound dude makes to fatten it up for FOH will be unheard on stage.

This is the reason I gave up on digital amp sims direct into the system. A goodly part of the magic I hear in a guitar sound is the smoothing provided by the speaker, cab, and the air it's pushing. Without that, the sound system becomes half of the guitar rig, and every preset must be dialed in with the system turned up as loud as it's going to be on zero hour. Even then, it's really hard to get a smooth sound. Cab simulation algorithms are getting better, and I've heard some pretty respectable sounds from Line6 gear plugged straight in, but it takes collaboration with the sound guy.

Even with cab simulation, the direct sound from a Flextone combo will be harder and more abrasive than the sound from the speaker. With a good quality system the difference will be painfully obvious.

There's also the chance that(like most churches I've played in) the sound guy is completely asleep at the wheel with regard to guitars.