Problems Playing Through the PA....

[SOLO GUITAR STEWIE]

Re: Problems Playing Through the PA....

You are correct that the sound guys at my church arent paid. Heres where the issue comes in.
The church was built, set up, and run with piano / organ for so long, thats what the sound guys know. Add in amps and drums and they arent comfortable anymore.
So we run NO amps. Sound is great at our church. I have no issues with it.
Main worship center we use pods, and electronic drums.
Youth worship we have acoustic drums, and run our amps. Balance out the amps and drums, use the PA for vocals and acoustic.

yup this is the same transition at my church...going from organ only to
a full "rock" band amps and all!! I just picked up a POD 2.0 so I can go direct to solve a lot of issues at the church sound wise....I will be testing it out in the house on friday....should be fine, I used my old PODXT through the house and it sounded awesome

 

[J Moose]

Re: Problems Playing Through the PA....

No, you're right. But what I'm trying to do is eliminate the extreme brightness, bad distortion and squealy feedback I'm getting.

Drop past the music store & plunk $100 on a sennheiser 609. Doesn't even need a stand... just hang it over the amp off the handle. Tell the engineers to take that signal & don't put it in YOUR monitor.

Roughly 90-95% of the time, monitors are setup and EQ'd to get the vocals crystal clear and as loud as possible before the onset of feedback. That can sometimes come at the expense of ideal tonality on other instruments, especially if they've ripped a lot of the low-end & low-mids away.

Personally on a big stage, or any stage I really hate the guitar coming back at me from the monitors. Always sounds funky... I'd rather run the amp hot and rely on that, doesn't matter who's at the monitor desk. The B3 player or drummer needs it in their wedge? Cool... no problem. Just don't blast it back at me!

 

[ratherdashing]

Re: Problems Playing Through the PA....

Drop past the music store & plunk $100 on a sennheiser 609. Doesn't even need a stand... just hang it over the amp off the handle. Tell the engineers to take that signal & don't put it in YOUR monitor.

Roughly 90-95% of the time, monitors are setup and EQ'd to get the vocals crystal clear and as loud as possible before the onset of feedback. That can sometimes come at the expense of ideal tonality on other instruments, especially if they've ripped a lot of the low-end & low-mids away.

Personally on a big stage, or any stage I really hate the guitar coming back at me from the monitors. Always sounds funky... I'd rather run the amp hot and rely on that, doesn't matter who's at the monitor desk. The B3 player or drummer needs it in their wedge? Cool... no problem. Just don't blast it back at me!

I agree with all of this, especially the part about the e609. They're excellent mics and well worth the relatively low cost.

 

[eschoendorff]

Re: Problems Playing Through the PA....

We're cool-
Sometimes I forget that others don't have my knowledge and experience.
I agree there are some tone deaf FOH worship engineers out there, but hey, they are usually volunteers, trying to serve the best way they can.
I'm lucky that I'm paid and furnished insurance, for doing something I love, and in some small way, I'm providing a ministry. We also do a TV broadcast, so I really have to have my game face on.
I just get tired of people always blaming the FOH engineer for everything, when often it isn't his fault, or he isn't aware of the problem- I know I'm very busy, I have 8 choir mics, up to 11 wireless mics, the podium, the piano and organ, and any Cd's or tapes to be used, an Orchestra, etc. all the while, with 3 monitor mixes, the house mix and the TV mix.

You should be able to go to the engineer, tell him what you want to hear, how you want to hear it, and any suggestions you might have. He then should be able to tell you what he can and can't do. I also highly recommend he get a copy of the Yamaha book about audio for worship.
If you approach him in Christian love, and just keep the theme that you are trying to have the best worship experience available to the audience, and that all of you are doing God's calling.

Cheers, brother. :beerchug:

 

[bungalowbill]

Re: Problems Playing Through the PA....

Butch...I would mic the amp and turn down my guitar in the monitor as Moose said....I would also try to get the soundman to set your EQ at the board as flat as possible without any effects from the board. I have had many headaches from people putting on effects at the board that were set for vocals..... too much reverb and or delay and will ruin a decent guitar tone.

Tell him you want it flat and dry and control the EQ and effects from your end.

 

[drpietrzak]

Re: Problems Playing Through the PA....

I used to do a lot of playing though PA's using POD 2.0, Podxt and J-Station 2.0. I have not done so for a few years now though. These can work well to a board but you have to set it up with the system you use. If you go from one system to another it is like renting an amp. Even the same models have variations based on speakers and parts variation.

What worked best for me to "rough in" the tone was to get access to the system, playing at volume (with band or a similar CD). I did not need access to the board really, just have someone start it and who would allow me to run the CD direct.

For me the POD 2.0 and J-Station tended to sound a bit better than the PODxt live though the PODxt was really more amp-like. The earlier technology had a more processed sound like a studio recording and so it tended to play a bit better (to me) with the PA approach. At least for the moderate to higher gain tones this was my impression.

So ... why not now? I would if asked to do it but the modelers just are not quite as touch sensitive to me as my tweeds. It is not a killer though live for me though as few people in an audience would be able to tell.

 

[Hoss]

Re: Problems Playing Through the PA....

I'm of the "do it right or don't do it at all" mindset when it comes to this sort of thing, and I'm willing to bet God is too.

PREACH it BROTHA!!!


Butch, it sounds like you're gonna get it all worked out by meeting with the guy. Awesome that he's going to do that. It might even take a couple of meetings to get it all hashed out.

Keep us posted!

Thanks for the "quotable" RD!!!

 

[Hoss]

Re: Problems Playing Through the PA....

Drop past the music store & plunk $100 on a sennheiser 609. Doesn't even need a stand... just hang it over the amp off the handle. Tell the engineers to take that signal & don't put it in YOUR monitor.

Roughly 90-95% of the time, monitors are setup and EQ'd to get the vocals crystal clear and as loud as possible before the onset of feedback. That can sometimes come at the expense of ideal tonality on other instruments, especially if they've ripped a lot of the low-end & low-mids away.

Personally on a big stage, or any stage I really hate the guitar coming back at me from the monitors. Always sounds funky... I'd rather run the amp hot and rely on that, doesn't matter who's at the monitor desk. The B3 player or drummer needs it in their wedge? Cool... no problem. Just don't blast it back at me!

i like this too...

 

[Reload in 5]

Re: Problems Playing Through the PA....

If I am using an amp, I like to have it set so I have reasonable stage volume. Then it doesnt matter as much about the quality of the send, since it will just be adding a little to my sound. Use a mic or dont. if you dont you just need a little time spent tweaking the preset so that it sounds good with THAT system.

I think you are in good shape though, as you guys are working together to fix the issue.

For our PODs, we got them sounding good, then as time went on we made little tweaks to them and now they really sound great. Even had a guitarist come ask us where our amps were. Just got everything fitting good in the mix.

So dont obsess over perfect sound right now, just get the basic issues worked out, and then make small tweaks over time.

 

[J Moose]

Re: Problems Playing Through the PA....

I agree with all of this, especially the part about the e609. They're excellent mics and well worth the relatively low cost.

Quite a few pro players I work with, from singers & drummers to guitarists & bass players have their own mics, DI boxes or other such nonsense. Frankly I really LOVE it when they hand me an XLR and say "here 'ya go" so all I have to do is plug it in and adjust the trim.

Dropping a bill on a mic is a worthwhile investment if you gig a lot to insure some consistency from show to show. How much were your guitars? Amps? Pedals? Why use some random mic? Better to be self-contained... that includes asking the monitor engineer for as little as possible. The less you need, the less of a chance they have to screw up the mix. I'm perfectly capable of botching my OWN guitar sound!!!

 

[Hellion]

Re: Problems Playing Through the PA....

I don't think you need to mic an amp at all. PODs are wonderful tools for this type of thing. From what you said at the beginning where even your clean sounds are distorted, I'm guessing he's got your input trim dialed way back and that your input is a bit high. You might try having him bring the gain up on his board and you dial back your send.

 

[Butch Snyder]

Re: Problems Playing Through the PA....

I don't think you need to mic an amp at all. PODs are wonderful tools for this type of thing. From what you said at the beginning where even your clean sounds are distorted, I'm guessing he's got your input trim dialed way back and that your input is a bit high. You might try having him bring the gain up on his board and you dial back your send.

I'm going to check the EQ and trim settings on the board and have the EQ set flat. I'll have the trim set way down if I can. I'll start with a really clean flat tone from the amp and go from there.

 

[marvar]

Re: Problems Playing Through the PA....

I'm going to check the EQ and trim settings on the board and have the EQ set flat. I'll have the trim set way down if I can. I'll start with a really clean flat tone from the amp and go from there.

Keep in mind that on most boards, the monitor sends are set up before the eq section of the channel, (pre-fader) meaning the eq on the channel of the mixer has no effect on the sound of the monitors, the channel eq works only for the FOH send, (post fader)
Most engineers run an eq on each monitor send, but, its for the over-all mix, not individual instruments.

 

[Butch Snyder]

Re: Problems Playing Through the PA....

Keep in mind that on most boards, the monitor sends are set up before the eq section of the channel, (pre-fader) meaning the eq on the channel of the mixer has no effect on the sound of the monitors, the channel eq works only for the FOH send, (post fader)
Most engineers run an eq on each monitor send, but, its for the over-all mix, not individual instruments.

Interesting, I will keep that i mind and ask the sound man.