Question about magnets effect tone

[loversmoon]

Ok so I've been wanting a different tone for my
Tele and I emailed a boutique builder to inquire if he could build one of his pickups for me
But use Alnico 2 pole pieces instead of the Alnico 5. His response was sure but it wouldn't change the tone?!!

Here's his email:

sure, but why? the difference in gauss rates between a5, a4, a3 and a2 magnets is negligible and to save yer life you couldn't "hear" the difference if used in a like-build pickup. it's not the magnet type that affects tone, it's their strength (gauss rate). another guitar/pickup myth busted.

cheers

Now I'm severely confused. If you can't "hear" the tonal difference why on earth do we have pickups made with different mags? Or why do mag swaps? From what
I'm reading he's saying he could build it but there would be absolutely no tonal difference between the a2 and a5.

Could someone help me wrap my Brain around this ?

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: Question about magnets effect tone

You need to find another builder. One who knows a little bit about building pickups! Especially one who knows something about magnets since they ARE such a key component affecting the tone and response of the pup.

It's true that you can't always hear a dramatic difference in tone when you change magnets in pups, but usually you can...especially going from an A5 to an A2 (the biggest tonal change, imo, is going from a ceramic mag to an A2).

 

[loversmoon]

Re: Question about magnets effect tone

That was exactly my understanding. I've been researching and researching and what he sent to me simply blew my mind. I was thinking how could you really believe that. I've watch comparison upon comparison vids and to my hears you can hear a difference. Slight for some, major for Others. My ears love an Alnico 2 magnet and a couple years ago I bought a pickup from this builder. It sounded pretty decent so I thought hey what about that pup with a2...but not from this guy now.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Question about magnets effect tone

This sounds like the typical 'I don't want to have to go out of my way to make a set so I'll try and bluff my way out of it' type response. Its usually done when there's a lot of stock already made, or materials on hand and there would have to be something else done to make the set.

I would try Zhangbucker myself. David winds a great Tele pickup, and is usually happy to talk though the tonal options. Its best to have an idea on final tone balance or outcome, and he can choose the wind and mag to suit unless you want something absolutely specific.

 

[Mincer]

Re: Question about magnets effect tone

This sounds like the typical 'I don't want to have to go out of my way to make a set so I'll try and bluff my way out of it' type response. Its usually done when there's a lot of stock already made, or materials on hand and there would have to be something else done to make the set.

I would try Zhangbucker myself. David winds a great Tele pickup, and is usually happy to talk though the tonal options. Its best to have an idea on final tone balance or outcome, and he can choose the wind and mag to suit unless you want something absolutely specific.

This is my thought as well. There are too many choices out there, and personal experience (your own) tells you differently (and me, too). Hopefully you can find what you are looking for.

 

[leevc5]

Re: Question about magnets effect tone

magnets since they ARE such a key component affecting the tone and response of the pup.

Why?

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Question about magnets effect tone

He's simply wrong. So wrong that if he took those A5's and degaussed them to the exact same strength as A2 he would find out immediately that gauss strength is not the some determiner of the magnet's affect on the tone. There is science of which this winder is ignorant.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Question about magnets effect tone

He's simply wrong. So wrong that if he took those A5's and degaussed them to the exact same strength as A2 he would find out immediately that gauss strength is not the some determiner of the magnet's affect on the tone. There is science of which this winder is ignorant.

You don't need science to confirm that A2 makes a pickup sound and feel/respond differently than A5.

Hearing and experience should suffice.

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Question about magnets effect tone

Yes and no...it's also possible to have lifelong experiences that validate A2 sounding different from A5, but the winder could be incorrectly attributing the difference to the gauss strength alone. The fact that he does say "it doesn't really matter" also adds to the disappointment though, you're right the experience would tell you it does matter, and his dismissive response suggests additional lack of experience/understanding.

But I could see someone ignorantly reaching the (incorrect) conclusion that it's only the gauss strength that matters, with good intentions.

 

[B2D]

Re: Question about magnets effect tone

Homeboy probably thinks that amp tubes are little more than light bulbs, too.

Find another builder.

 

[leevc5]

Re: Question about magnets effect tone

Before you drop this guy and move on to a builder that knows what he's doing send him this to study:
http://www.seymourduncan.com/blog/product-news/pickup-comparison-chart
If he studies it carefully he will see.

If you want the best, try this guy or Kent Armstrong(I can give you his email if you are interested) of course SD is also an excellent choice.
http://www.jimwagnerpickups.com/index.html

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Question about magnets effect tone

Just to be clear, when you say "builder" you mean "winder", right? Usually when someone says "builder", I think of a luthier (maker of guitars).

Whatever he is, add this winder's name to the list of those who say he's dead wrong.

 

[thanaton]

Re: Question about magnets effect tone

The topic is magnetic pole pieces, so it's important to remember that any metal has a greater effect when it's in the core of the coil, and not merely underneath it.

There are only three properties of pickups that are known to effect the tone: 1) magnetic flux density, or gauss, 2) permeability and 3) conductivity. Higher gauss means that, all other things being equal, the strings will have a stronger magnetic charge. Higher permeability means higher inductance, or a lower resonant peak. Higher conductivity in combination with higher permeability causes eddy current losses, or less treble and a lower Q factor. AlNiCo 2, 3 and 4 are actually less conductive than AlNiCo 5, but cause higher eddy current losses due to their also having higher permeability.

In a typical humbucker, the coils have steel in their coil cores, and so the permeability and the conductivity of the steel slugs and screws will play a more dominant role than the same properties of the magnetic underneath. A humbucker also relies upon the permeability of the intermediary steel slugs and screws to magnetically charge the guitar strings, where as a Fender style pickup places the actual magnets in proximity of the strings. So overall, magnets make a greater difference in Stratocaster / Telecaster type pickups, than they do humbuckers.

I've heard other properties of the magnets cited as tonal factors, such as their BH curves or their "magnetic reluctance", but it's much less clear how exactly those factors would/could effect the workings of a pickup.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Question about magnets effect tone

The geometry of the magnet(s) relative to the strings matters very much, even more than the Alnico grade, which does matter a lot. For example, I tend to steer customers away from A5 in neck humbuckers because it will beef up the bass response which is in most cases not desirable in a neck bucker (exceptions would be unusually bright guitar, need more beef to pair with high output bucker in bridge, etc). Yet I emphatically insist on A5 for Strat or Tele neck pickups -- except in the case of really low (hardcore vintage) winds where you can get away with A3 or A2.

Mixed message? No.

Because the magnetic field of a humbucker is much wider -- it's a 1/2" wide bar laid flat, and two sets of poles rather than just one -- than that of a Fender style single coil, it sees the longer wavelengths of the lower freqs at that segment of the strings better. The Fender style pickup has a much narrower magnetic field with just one set of poles, typically slightly larger than 3/16" wide, so it doesn't see the lows well no matter what grade rod magnet you put in it. So A5, as it also emphasizes top, will do so even the neck position in a Strat or Tele pickup and thus it works best to keep a Strat or Tele neck pickup articulate and clear, which, with the exception of really low-wind (which I define as sub-6k) pickups, is crucial in the neck. A2 and A3 in the neck can get pretty murky on Strats and Teles, but especially on Teles with a cover.

 

[leevc5]

Re: Question about magnets effect tone

The geometry of the magnet(s) relative to the strings matters very much, even more than the Alnico grade, which does matter a lot. For example, I tend to steer customers away from A5 in neck humbuckers because it will beef up the bass response which is in most cases not desirable in a neck bucker (exceptions would be unusually bright guitar, need more beef to pair with high output bucker in bridge, etc). Yet I emphatically insist on A5 for Strat or Tele neck pickups -- except in the case of really low (hardcore vintage) winds where you can get away with A3 or A2.

Mixed message? No.

Because the magnetic field of a humbucker is much wider -- it's a 1/2" wide bar laid flat, and two sets of poles rather than just one -- than that of a Fender style single coil, it sees the longer wavelengths of the lower freqs at that segment of the strings better. The Fender style pickup has a much narrower magnetic field with just one set of poles, typically slightly larger than 3/16" wide, so it doesn't see the lows well no matter what grade rod magnet you put in it. So A5, as it also emphasizes top, will do so even the neck position in a Strat or Tele pickup and thus it works best to keep a Strat or Tele neck pickup articulate and clear, which, with the exception of really low-wind (which I define as sub-6k) pickups, is crucial in the neck. A2 and A3 in the neck can get pretty murky on Strats and Teles, but especially on Teles with a cover.

So what would the result of a one and a half or a double wide Humbucker be? From your explanation the pickup would see longer wavelengths of the lower frequencies even better.
Is it worthwhile to test a double wide Humbucker?

 

[Demanic]

Re: Question about magnets effect tone

^^
I think the double wide style is used for bass guitars. Probably too much low end for a regular guitar. I have heard of mini humbuckers being used in several models of guitars.

Sent from my MotoE2(4G-LTE) using Tapatalk

 

[thanaton]

Re: Question about magnets effect tone

A Strat's "notch" position, where two pickups are active at once, is equivalent to a very wide humbucker. When the coils are that far apart, the comb filtering drops down into the "upper mids" frequency range, giving them a scooped, quacky tone.

 

[thanaton]

Re: Question about magnets effect tone

Because the magnetic field of a humbucker is much wider -- it's a 1/2" wide bar laid flat, and two sets of poles rather than just one -- than that of a Fender style single coil, it sees the longer wavelengths of the lower freqs at that segment of the strings better. The Fender style pickup has a much narrower magnetic field with just one set of poles, typically slightly larger than 3/16" wide, so it doesn't see the lows well no matter what grade rod magnet you put in it.

The lows would be the fundemental, and maybe the second or third harmonics, depending on what you define as "lows". Width doesn't matter when it comes to receiving induction from the fundamental. The entire guitar string is moving at the fundamental frequency, so there's nowhere for that movement to hide, such that some amount of width would be required to uncover it.

This illustration appears to depict fretting at the 12th fret:

You can see that the neck and middle pickups see varying proportions of harmonic movement depending on which frets are held, and can be entirely blind to a harmonic if that harmonic node happens to sit above the pickup. A humbucker's coils are close enough together than they will see a similar view of the harmonic patterns above them, though the voicing changes as a result of their seeing a slightly different harmonic balance than a true single coil. The notch positions of a Strat are a good example of what happens when the coils are much farther apart. Note that a Strat's notch positions are parallel, while a humbucker is typically in series, so the Strat notch position has a much higher resonant peak, but you can still observe how the "voicing" changes as the degree of separation widens, and the comb filtering moves lower into the audible frequency range. The bridge and neck pickups combined together is an even more extreme example.

The added bass that is associated with humbuckers is more likely a result of their typically having a higher inductance. A DiMarzio "Humbucker from Hell" is a humbucker that is meant to sound more like a Fender single coil, by way of lower inductance and a high resonant peak, and you will still hear a difference with respect to that harmonic voicing, but you will get an overall amount of bass and treble that is typical of a Fender single coil.

 

[leevc5]

Re: Question about magnets effect tone

The lows would be the fundemental, and maybe the second or third harmonics, depending on what you define as "lows". Width doesn't matter when it comes to receiving induction from the fundamental. The entire guitar string is moving at the fundamental frequency, so there's nowhere for that movement to hide, such that some amount of width would be required to uncover it.

This illustration appears to depict fretting at the 12th fret:

You can see that the neck and middle pickups see varying proportions of harmonic movement depending on which frets are held, and can be entirely blind to a harmonic if that harmonic node happens to sit above the pickup. A humbucker's coils are close enough together than they will see a similar view of the harmonic patterns above them, though the voicing changes as a result of their seeing a slightly different harmonic balance than a true single coil. The notch positions of a Strat are a good example of what happens when the coils are much farther apart. Note that a Strat's notch positions are parallel, while a humbucker is typically in series, so the Strat notch position has a much higher resonant peak, but you can still observe how the "voicing" changes as the degree of separation widens, and the comb filtering moves lower into the audible frequency range. The bridge and neck pickups combined together is an even more extreme example.

The added bass that is associated with humbuckers is more likely a result of their typically having a higher inductance. A DiMarzio "Humbucker from Hell" is a humbucker that is meant to sound more like a Fender single coil, by way of lower inductance and a high resonant peak, and you will still hear a difference with respect to that harmonic voicing, but you will get an overall amount of bass and treble that is typical of a Fender single coil.

It looks to me like that diagram is counter to what we actually hear. The bridge is picking up more mids and lows. What we hear from a pickup located in the bridge position is a lot more treble/highs. Why is that? If I understand that then maybe I will also be able to understand why the neck position pup is seeing the broadest frequency range when in fact what we hear from the neck pup is primarily mids and lows so intense they are often times muddy.

 

[thanaton]

Re: Question about magnets effect tone

It looks to me like that diagram is counter to what we actually hear. The bridge is picking up more mids and lows. What we hear from a pickup located in the bridge position is a lot more treble/highs. Why is that?

Two reasons:

1) The illustration is not to scale. The higher harmonics are tiny compared to the fundamental, and become increasingly tinier the higher you go. The illustration shows them as being the same size because it's purpose is to illustrate harmonic width as opposed to harmonic amplitude.

2) Look again at how much of the fundamental movement the bridge pickups is actually seeing:

It's smaller compared to the middle or neck. The is the primary reason the neck pickup is so bass heavy.