Seth Lovers &. Middle Position Tone

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Studioplayer

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I have a Duncan Seth Lover set in one of my Les Paul Classic which I installed over a year ago. The guitar is now over 16 years old and I bought it new. While I really like the Seth neck and bridge tones by themselves, I still am not settled on what my middle switch position tone should be. I've always admired Jimmy Page's middle position and I've heard Bloomfield's tone also. I think I prefer more of what Page's concept of thatbtone should be.

How would you Seth Lover afficandos set you pickups and guitar controls to get your own idea of your preferred middle tone? Is it based on pickup heights or guitar controls?



Studioplayer
 
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Re: Seth Lovers &. Middle Position Tone

Middle position is always based on the 2 pickups (of course). Some pickups really do it well. Others just don't combine in the middle....even though they individually sound great in their positions. Both Bloomfield and Page of course used PAF's, which means they most likely had slightly different pickups as each PAF is probably unique (and of course post 72 Page has a T-top bridge). Also the guitars themselves are a bit different so you can expect that to contribute a bit.

In terms of adjustment, you can fiddle with each pickup....both the height and the polepieces. You can also raise/lower both pickups the same amount. The tone in the middle is like a multiplier of whatever goes on with any individual change.

But in the end there is no amount of adjustment that will make that position great if the pickup/guitar combo is not right. I have not used Seth's so I can't tell you if they are great for that middle posi.
One winder that hangs around here whose pickups do really cluck in the middle is Zhangbucker (he actually does wind for the middle position tone unlike a lot of others). His Pagey 2 set is one of may faves.....and they are very reasonably priced for a boutique set.
http://www.zhangbucker.com/humbuckers.html
 
Re: Seth Lovers &. Middle Position Tone

i adjust the individual volume and tone controls frequently when playing in the middle position to get the tone i am after. if you find you cant get what you want then id start adjusting the pup heights and pole piece heights
 
Re: Seth Lovers &. Middle Position Tone

Neck 3/32" from the high E and 1/4" from the low E when fretted at the 22nd fret. Bridge 3/32" from both high and low E when fretted at 22nd fret. Neck volume on 10, bridge volume on 8-9; nearly balanced but favor the neck. Into Marshall with presence on 2-3, bass on 8-10, middle on 5-7, treble on 8-10, gain on 7-8. For certain songs, it really needs bridge and neck in series and out of phase, with bridge rolled back 2-3 notches below whatever the neck is set to. But that's just my experience and how I do it. YMMV
 
Re: Seth Lovers &. Middle Position Tone

Start with the recommended pup height that comes with the install instructions.

From there, consider adjusting the pole pieces to follow the radius of the strings.

See where that gets you and go from there. More than anything, it will just take some tinkering.
 
Seth Lovers &. Middle Position Tone

Seth Lovers &. Middle Position Tone

Then there's always the different magnets. Interestingly whole lotta humbucker are A5 but didn't Jimmy experiment with A5 in the bridge and A3 in the neck - that middle position sweet spot happens when the EQ between the pickups is contrasting and different so when the meet they compliment each other. I have an LP with A5 and another HB guitar with APH1 (A2) but the combo that gets closest believe it or not is the one with 498T and 490R combo when both are on together, I guess because A2 and A3 EQ is in a similar ball park.


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Re: Seth Lovers &. Middle Position Tone

Re: Seth Lovers &. Middle Position Tone

vinnie1971 said:
Then there's always the different magnets. Interestingly whole lotta humbucker are A5 but didn't Jimmy experiment with A5 in the bridge and A3 in the neck - that middle position sweet spot happens when the EQ between the pickups is contrasting and different so when the meet they compliment each other. I have an LP with A5 and another HB guitar with APH1 (A2) but the combo that gets closest believe it or not is the one with 498T and 490R combo when both are on together, I guess because A2 and A3 EQ is in a similar ball park.


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Click to expand...

By compliment each other, do you mean that I'd hear the bass from the neck and the highs from the bridge...simultaneously?


Studioplayer
 
Re: Seth Lovers &. Middle Position Tone

^^
Yes.

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Re: Seth Lovers &. Middle Position Tone

Re: Seth Lovers &. Middle Position Tone

vinnie1971 said:
Then there's always the different magnets. Interestingly whole lotta humbucker are A5 but didn't Jimmy experiment with A5 in the bridge and A3 in the neck - that middle position sweet spot happens when the EQ between the pickups is contrasting and different so when the meet they compliment each other.
Click to expand...

While the WLH set is a good "rock" pickup, it seems a lot of people find a lot more marketing going on with it than what Page was doing on the LZ songs he's known for.

So I think you are on to something there.
 
Re: Seth Lovers &. Middle Position Tone

FWIW - so far the closest stock pickups (without mag swaps or other modifications) to get nearest (for many but not all) Page middle tones, IME, so far have been an old butylrate bobbin Jazz (#1) and a 496R (#2, believe it or not). They both have the top end and chime to mix properly with the bridge to cover a lot of Zep sounds. My Seth neck is clean, but not Zep sounding.

For the bridge, it depends on which period and which guitar you are trying to approximate. For example, strangely, an old DDJ Distortion bridge did the best Led Zeppelin IV sounds I've ever gotten (think of that fuzzy buzzy distortion on Black Dog), but it was too chewy on the bottom end to do much else LZ. It was also very bright - I had to keep the tone knob rolled back to 5 while doing it - but it sounded fine that way.

It's also worth noting all my Page experiments were with 50's wiring, so other guys might wonder why I would mention those pickups if they haven't yet heard them through 50's wiring.
 
Re: Seth Lovers &. Middle Position Tone

Demanic said:
^^
Yes.

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Bingo! Then, I may have found the sweet spot on my Classic for middle position tone. I had the Seths in it dialed in recently, to get that "balance" where I'm hearing the fullness of the neck and the snap and "steely"'highs from the bridge. It sounded more "Bloomfield" than Page, IMHO. Next time I dial this particular tone in, I will start tweaking my amp and leave the guitar controls alone. I'm not trying for either the Page or Bloomfield tone with the middle position in particular, but rather my own tone based on my guitar/amp setup. I think their tone is also derived from what amp they chose; not to mention the expression: "tone is in their fingers".


Studioplayer
 
Re: Seth Lovers &. Middle Position Tone

I know Bloomfield's tone more than Page's, no-one's mentioned out of phase middle position here, so I thought I should add it, as I think Page's Les Paul was wired to get it electronically (unlike Peter Green's LP, where it was due to magnet flip).

Out-of-phase middle increases the audible effect of playing with the volume and tone settings - it's not just about the nasal maximum cancellation - on my LP, it turns my neck volume pot into something akin to a wah sweep.


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Re: Seth Lovers &. Middle Position Tone

And then there's coil splits and series/parallel because Jimmy wanted the tele sound without hum, as that's what he used on Led Zep 1


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Re: Seth Lovers &. Middle Position Tone

You know, I never use the middle position. On 2 humbucker guitars, it is either neck or bridge for me. On some guitars, I use the middle to select the outside coils of the humbuckers (or inside), and that is more useful. On Strats, I have position 3 use the neck and bridge pickups. I switch pickups a lot while playing, but I could never warm up to 2 humbuckers in parallel.
 
Re: Seth Lovers &. Middle Position Tone

I have no problem getting great middle tones with a set of 59's!
It's all about A5 mags for that sound.
 
Re: Seth Lovers &. Middle Position Tone

I love A2 x 2 or better still A5 plus A2 for the middle. The former out of phase with one volume rolled back gives a great BB King, Freddie King tone and the latter nails that sound on the solo in Lemon Song in my opinion.


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Re: Seth Lovers &. Middle Position Tone

vinnie1971 said:
And then there's coil splits and series/parallel because Jimmy wanted the tele sound without hum, as that's what he used on Led Zep 1


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Just an FYI.....none of the switching was in the guitar during the Zep days.
 
Re: Seth Lovers &. Middle Position Tone

Mincer said:
You know, I never use the middle position. I could never warm up to 2 humbuckers in parallel.
Click to expand...
That's because you apparently don't belong to the cathegory of musicians that back-up artists! ;)

The middle position is the quintessential sound for the two-HB guitar, commonly used to "cut-through-the-mix" without overpower vocals and/or lead melodies, for doing chord- and/or arpeggio-work on over 90% of commercial music played on the radio.

HTH,
 
Re: Seth Lovers &. Middle Position Tone

i think dave does a fair amount of playing behind singers actually or at least used to. theres lots of ways to skin a fish
 
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