Lucid_Lunatic
Rebelyellologist
Re: Seymour Duncan be trollin hard
I just got to adding up what I actually have in my Gibson Les Pauls and if I put these pups in all of them......................
Dixie $200
Amber $1200
Goldtop $700
Honeyburst $800
Custom $1400
That's $4300 bucks.
Pickups for all.......... $5975!
I just got to adding up what I actually have in my Gibson Les Pauls and if I put these pups in all of them......................
Dixie $200
Amber $1200
Goldtop $700
Honeyburst $800
Custom $1400
That's $4300 bucks.
Pickups for all.......... $5975!
phil_104
Cheesesteakologist
Re: Seymour Duncan be trollin hard
Well, there is that line we keep talking about, where price can be justified by quality. Keeping in mind that I love SD pickups, there would need to be a major, major difference, for me to consider investing the extra 1000$ into a pickup set as opposed to their regular production models. I just don't see it being worth that upcharge.
On the other hand, I was discussion speakers with my father the other day, who is an avid audiophile. He was telling me how some speaker companies make 200 000$+ speakers. I told him this was excess, but his argument was that in a market where technology has so much to do with keeping up to date, companies will produce products, even if not the most popular retail item, to push forward the technology, and establish themselves at the forefront of their field. I would see silver pickups as one of these products.
Well, there is that line we keep talking about, where price can be justified by quality. Keeping in mind that I love SD pickups, there would need to be a major, major difference, for me to consider investing the extra 1000$ into a pickup set as opposed to their regular production models. I just don't see it being worth that upcharge.
On the other hand, I was discussion speakers with my father the other day, who is an avid audiophile. He was telling me how some speaker companies make 200 000$+ speakers. I told him this was excess, but his argument was that in a market where technology has so much to do with keeping up to date, companies will produce products, even if not the most popular retail item, to push forward the technology, and establish themselves at the forefront of their field. I would see silver pickups as one of these products.
sosomething
Seymour Duncan Customer Support
Re: Seymour Duncan be trollin hard
Yeah, but producing a standard humbucker with really, really expensive components seems like a step backward to me from a progress-perspective.
Yeah, but producing a standard humbucker with really, really expensive components seems like a step backward to me from a progress-perspective.
Re: Seymour Duncan be trollin hard
Silver wire is expensive, but if it becomes commonly used, the difference will come down.
The nylon/glass-fiber bobbins are much more interesting, not just for tone benefits but for ruggedness. I wouldn't be surprised to see them be standard for new pickups in a few years, if the price increment is low enough with them produced in bulk. I wouldn't be surprised if they are required to prevent/reduce the cryo treatment cracking the bobbins, as well...
*ponders a set of ceramic Zephyr humbuckers*
Silver wire is expensive, but if it becomes commonly used, the difference will come down.
The nylon/glass-fiber bobbins are much more interesting, not just for tone benefits but for ruggedness. I wouldn't be surprised to see them be standard for new pickups in a few years, if the price increment is low enough with them produced in bulk. I wouldn't be surprised if they are required to prevent/reduce the cryo treatment cracking the bobbins, as well...
*ponders a set of ceramic Zephyr humbuckers*
phil_104
Cheesesteakologist
Re: Seymour Duncan be trollin hard
Don't get me wrong, I don't see it as a breakthrough. A breakthrough would be a pickup that sounded twice as good, with affordable material. But, on the flip side, it's the type of product they will make because they can, and it will be discussed to no end, and it will be a new benchmark in using material for pickups. When people talk about the most high end, made from the best possible pickups possible, no cutting back cost product, this will come up. It's not meant to be a product like the regular production pickups, in my opinion.
I could be very wrong, more often than not that seems to be the case, lol.
Don't get me wrong, I don't see it as a breakthrough. A breakthrough would be a pickup that sounded twice as good, with affordable material. But, on the flip side, it's the type of product they will make because they can, and it will be discussed to no end, and it will be a new benchmark in using material for pickups. When people talk about the most high end, made from the best possible pickups possible, no cutting back cost product, this will come up. It's not meant to be a product like the regular production pickups, in my opinion.
I could be very wrong, more often than not that seems to be the case, lol.
sosomething
Seymour Duncan Customer Support
Re: Seymour Duncan be trollin hard
I seriously doubt that the volume of magnetic guitar pickups being produced has any effect on electrical materials cost whatsoever.
I seriously doubt that the volume of magnetic guitar pickups being produced has any effect on electrical materials cost whatsoever.
IanBallard
New member
Re: Seymour Duncan be trollin hard
Well IF and IF only silver prices stabilize or go down, will this kind of thing be practical. Not to keep drudging up economic jargon, but as long as the Fed is printing trillions and giving back-door loans to foreign, off-shore banks, while corrupt investment banks like Goldman Sachs is producing vastly more silver stocks than they have in physical silver, we could see $30/oz silver become $200/oz or worse.
Maybe this is a reason for people to demand a more stable currency and re-monetize silver. Imagine if the Dollar were once again akin to an ounce of silver... you could argue prices would fall 30x. Then you'd have an affordable set of silver Duncans.
I think they will be FANTASTIC pickups, combined with the hi-tolerance bobbins, cryo treatments, etc. But let's face it, the Dollar is doomed and pretty soon all prices will spiral out-of-control if something isn't done to stop the bleeding.
Well IF and IF only silver prices stabilize or go down, will this kind of thing be practical. Not to keep drudging up economic jargon, but as long as the Fed is printing trillions and giving back-door loans to foreign, off-shore banks, while corrupt investment banks like Goldman Sachs is producing vastly more silver stocks than they have in physical silver, we could see $30/oz silver become $200/oz or worse.
Maybe this is a reason for people to demand a more stable currency and re-monetize silver. Imagine if the Dollar were once again akin to an ounce of silver... you could argue prices would fall 30x. Then you'd have an affordable set of silver Duncans.
I think they will be FANTASTIC pickups, combined with the hi-tolerance bobbins, cryo treatments, etc. But let's face it, the Dollar is doomed and pretty soon all prices will spiral out-of-control if something isn't done to stop the bleeding.
Re: Seymour Duncan be trollin hard
Bulk almost always impacts cost. I wasn't entirely being serious, but limited production models often have prices disconnected from their material costs.
As mentioned by Lucid Lunatic, other manufacturers do $250 silver wire pickup sets.
I strongly suspect most of the cost is due to being an ultra-custom model. If they don't have a polished commercial cryo process, that may destroy a lot of pickups, which is particularly expensive given special materials. Cracked bobbins, shorts inside coils. Also, extra labor for removing what's salvagable of the expensive components. Could easily add up. But there's definitely a disconnect between actual cost of production and pickup price, given the same charge for all types of sets. Unless they are having more problems with failures on tele pickups...
Bulk almost always impacts cost. I wasn't entirely being serious, but limited production models often have prices disconnected from their material costs.
As mentioned by Lucid Lunatic, other manufacturers do $250 silver wire pickup sets.
I strongly suspect most of the cost is due to being an ultra-custom model. If they don't have a polished commercial cryo process, that may destroy a lot of pickups, which is particularly expensive given special materials. Cracked bobbins, shorts inside coils. Also, extra labor for removing what's salvagable of the expensive components. Could easily add up. But there's definitely a disconnect between actual cost of production and pickup price, given the same charge for all types of sets. Unless they are having more problems with failures on tele pickups...
sosomething
Seymour Duncan Customer Support
Re: Seymour Duncan be trollin hard
Sure, if SD starts ordering a whole bunch of the stuff they'll get a bulk rate which would reduce their costs, but my point was that the actual wholesale material cost isn't likely to be affected by something as niche as aftermarket guitar pickup use, even if SD and DiMarzio were to switch to all-silver for everything tomorrow.
Sure, if SD starts ordering a whole bunch of the stuff they'll get a bulk rate which would reduce their costs, but my point was that the actual wholesale material cost isn't likely to be affected by something as niche as aftermarket guitar pickup use, even if SD and DiMarzio were to switch to all-silver for everything tomorrow.
IanBallard
New member
Re: Seymour Duncan be trollin hard
Good points Despair, but again, that only applies IF silver prices stabilize. I bought rolls of Silver rounds when they were $6/oz. I'm sittin' pretty now, but my DOLLAR won't buy as much as it did when I bought those rounds 10 years ago. I've studied economics and monetary theory for a few years and quantity is relative to price. Sure, you can lower prices over time if the price of raw materials is stable, but considering that the Dollar is being treated like a groupie at a Van Halen afterparty, I don't see that being a very sound argument right now in this epoch of our history.
Again, great product, I'm sure. I'd LOVE to try one out or be able to buy a set. I'm am CONVINCED of the electro-inductive advantages of silver and agree that more stable bobbin materials will positively effect pickup performance. I'd LOVE to have a set of unpotted pickups that don't squeal like a pig when the amp is cranked, but let's not pretend we musicians and musical product maker live in a vacuum, separated from the money supply. All people, products and services are at the mercy of our currency system and it's broken... very broken.
Good points Despair, but again, that only applies IF silver prices stabilize. I bought rolls of Silver rounds when they were $6/oz. I'm sittin' pretty now, but my DOLLAR won't buy as much as it did when I bought those rounds 10 years ago. I've studied economics and monetary theory for a few years and quantity is relative to price. Sure, you can lower prices over time if the price of raw materials is stable, but considering that the Dollar is being treated like a groupie at a Van Halen afterparty, I don't see that being a very sound argument right now in this epoch of our history.
Again, great product, I'm sure. I'd LOVE to try one out or be able to buy a set. I'm am CONVINCED of the electro-inductive advantages of silver and agree that more stable bobbin materials will positively effect pickup performance. I'd LOVE to have a set of unpotted pickups that don't squeal like a pig when the amp is cranked, but let's not pretend we musicians and musical product maker live in a vacuum, separated from the money supply. All people, products and services are at the mercy of our currency system and it's broken... very broken.
Re: Seymour Duncan be trollin hard
Wholesale material costs do affect pickup prices and manufacturer material choices, though. DiMarzio limits magnet variety to ceramic and A5 in humbuckers largely for bulk price reasons (the claim that it's because other magnets are more prone to degaussing is specious, given decades of use of various pickup magnets with such occurances being incredibly rare).
If it was just about demagnetization, DiMarzio ought to be all over A8, which is the alnico most resistant to demagnetization.
It's especially painful when experimenting with a new product where you aren't sure if it will take off or not. Ordering materials only used for that product that you aren't using elsewhere often requires ordering in more bulk than you want, in order to minimize small order price issues.
Seymour Duncan employees have mentioned bulk issues impacting choices numerous times as well, such as no longer having neck-spaced Parallel Axis bobbins because there wasn't sufficient demand so they stopped having them made.
Wholesale material costs do affect pickup prices and manufacturer material choices, though. DiMarzio limits magnet variety to ceramic and A5 in humbuckers largely for bulk price reasons (the claim that it's because other magnets are more prone to degaussing is specious, given decades of use of various pickup magnets with such occurances being incredibly rare).
If it was just about demagnetization, DiMarzio ought to be all over A8, which is the alnico most resistant to demagnetization.
It's especially painful when experimenting with a new product where you aren't sure if it will take off or not. Ordering materials only used for that product that you aren't using elsewhere often requires ordering in more bulk than you want, in order to minimize small order price issues.
Seymour Duncan employees have mentioned bulk issues impacting choices numerous times as well, such as no longer having neck-spaced Parallel Axis bobbins because there wasn't sufficient demand so they stopped having them made.
Franknfilms
New member
Re: Seymour Duncan be trollin hard
Why bother with fancy new pickups? If you want to charge $1,000 then just do what Hooters does (or my local hot dog joint, Chubby Wieners): sell the normal product for $1,000 and throw in a bottle of dom perignon
Why bother with fancy new pickups? If you want to charge $1,000 then just do what Hooters does (or my local hot dog joint, Chubby Wieners): sell the normal product for $1,000 and throw in a bottle of dom perignon
astrozombie
KatyPerryologist
Re: Seymour Duncan be trollin hard
i think weve been trolled
i think weve been trolled
sosomething
Seymour Duncan Customer Support
Re: Seymour Duncan be trollin hard
You will want to edit this post after you go back, re-read, and actually understand mine.
You will want to edit this post after you go back, re-read, and actually understand mine.
Re: Seymour Duncan be trollin hard
Hm, you seemed to be talking to me, if you were replying to IanBallard on silver prices being impacted by guitar use of silver (which isn't even his point)... Err, what are we talking about now?
My reply being irrelevant to what you were saying doesn't invalidate it, so no I lack any urge to edit.
I suspect we're just talking about different issues, though. I'm certainly not saying silver costs will be impacted by guitar use of silver, but materials costs for pickup manufacturers is certainly affected by the bulk they order in.
Hm, you seemed to be talking to me, if you were replying to IanBallard on silver prices being impacted by guitar use of silver (which isn't even his point)... Err, what are we talking about now?
My reply being irrelevant to what you were saying doesn't invalidate it, so no I lack any urge to edit.
I suspect we're just talking about different issues, though. I'm certainly not saying silver costs will be impacted by guitar use of silver, but materials costs for pickup manufacturers is certainly affected by the bulk they order in.
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sosomething
Seymour Duncan Customer Support
Re: Seymour Duncan be trollin hard
I suspect you're right - we are talking about different issues. I agree with your last paragraph. This all started because you said:
Which I took to mean:
"If silver becomes commonly used in guitar pickups (my assumption based on the subject of the thread), the price of silver (the sentence subject) will come down."
In that light, my comments will probably appear more clear to you. I see now that that was not what you meant.
Carry on!
I suspect you're right - we are talking about different issues. I agree with your last paragraph. This all started because you said:
Which I took to mean:
"If silver becomes commonly used in guitar pickups (my assumption based on the subject of the thread), the price of silver (the sentence subject) will come down."
In that light, my comments will probably appear more clear to you. I see now that that was not what you meant.
Carry on!
Got_tone?
New member
Re: Seymour Duncan be trollin hard
This is just like green technology, IMO. Yeah, it looks good on paper, but it ain't gonna be the end all tech until it's cost effective.
Let's just try to remember that we shouldn't be bashing the claims of the new tech based on price alone. That said, I'd rather put $1200 into good slabs of wood instead of a set of uber-boutique p'ups.
This is just like green technology, IMO. Yeah, it looks good on paper, but it ain't gonna be the end all tech until it's cost effective.
Let's just try to remember that we shouldn't be bashing the claims of the new tech based on price alone. That said, I'd rather put $1200 into good slabs of wood instead of a set of uber-boutique p'ups.
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IanBallard
New member
Re: Seymour Duncan be trollin hard
I thought the Blackout preaamp was purely for the cosmetics of pretty passive bobbins, with the sound of active Blackouts. To me that would be a HUGE waste of money to usurp the alleged benefits of silver wire/glass-filled bobbin/cryo-treament, so you can have a blackout sound. My understanding is regardless of the pickup, the passive tone is barely distinguishable when run through the preamp. Personally, a lack of switching from active to passive to me, is a horrible misstep in design for these very reasons. I could see, if you had the money and loved the tone enough, buying Zephyr pickups might be awesome if you could switch from passive to active. But apparently, it's a big rigamarole of wiring up a 4-way bypass to do that.
Wow, no.I meant that the difference in the price of the pickups would come down. [Just in case a bystander to the chaos has lost track.]
Anyways, back on subject... So how about ceramic Zephyrs with a Blackout preamp?
I thought the Blackout preaamp was purely for the cosmetics of pretty passive bobbins, with the sound of active Blackouts. To me that would be a HUGE waste of money to usurp the alleged benefits of silver wire/glass-filled bobbin/cryo-treament, so you can have a blackout sound. My understanding is regardless of the pickup, the passive tone is barely distinguishable when run through the preamp. Personally, a lack of switching from active to passive to me, is a horrible misstep in design for these very reasons. I could see, if you had the money and loved the tone enough, buying Zephyr pickups might be awesome if you could switch from passive to active. But apparently, it's a big rigamarole of wiring up a 4-way bypass to do that.
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