some questions about wire

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hello,

i have some question about pickup wire.

how does a thinner or a thicker wire affect tone ?

Is it possible to make a pickup with copper sheets ?

i'd like to experiment new and odd things :P!
 
Re: some questions about wire

hello,

i have some question about pickup wire.

how does a thinner or a thicker wire affect tone ?

Is it possible to make a pickup with copper sheets ?

i'd like to experiment new and odd things :P!

Thinner or thicker makes no difference in tone, since there's very little electricity going through in a passive circuit guitar. And wires are so short, their capacitance generally doesn't matter.

Do you mean pickup covered with copper shielding? Or pickups wires with copper shielding?

If you mean first, it's interesting experiment. Jaguar pickups (to my knowledge) are shielded with plates from their sides, but I haven't heard comparable samples, as Jaguar circuitry is quite different from e.g. Strats.

Search for "eddy currents guitar", if you want technical info how metal shielding etc... affects guitar pickups.

I don't think copper shielding in pickup wires would do anything if your guitar has properly shielded cavity.

If you mean using copper sheets to build pickup, instead of copper wire... Theoretically it might be possible, but resulting pickup would be impractically big. It's the lenght of wire that matters, so I think you would need a very long piece of sheet and too powerful magnet to build usable pickup.
 
Re: some questions about wire

Thinner wire obviously allows more turns, which obviously affects tone. I am not sure what you mean by copper sheets, Like wrapping copper sheets on top of each other?
 
Re: some questions about wire

I think Jacew was referring to the wire from the pup to the switch rather than the actual winds of the pup. The pup coil wires has a great effect on the tone of the pup.

Winding a pup with copper sheets would be like using extremely large wire with hardly any resistance. If you could do it successfully, I would expect the tone of the pup would be extremely thin and trebly to the point that you couldn't bare to listen to it.
 
Re: some questions about wire

^ Yes, I was.

What about the coil wire?

More turns makes higher output pickup, and using thicker wire makes it treblier, than pickup with same amount of winding but thinner wire? Is it that simple?
 
Re: some questions about wire

^ Yes, I was.

What about the coil wire?

More turns makes higher output pickup, and using thicker wire makes it treblier, than pickup with same amount of winding but thinner wire? Is it that simple?


there's really no "reader's digest" version of how it all works together.

thicker or thinner wire can determine how many turns can "fit" on a coil, but the pickup maker only puts as much wire on a bobbin as they see necessary for their goal. more turns can mean a higher resistance, but not necessarily a higher output.

check out this video from May 2016 that features a guitar industry heavyweights like Jason Lollar and Rick Turner. the dude in the middle is Frank Falbo, who in on the R&D team for Fishman... they do something kinda sorta similar to wrapping copper sheets idea:

 
Re: some questions about wire

there's really no "reader's digest" version of how it all works together.

thicker or thinner wire can determine how many turns can "fit" on a coil, but the pickup maker only puts as much wire on a bobbin as they see necessary for their goal. more turns can mean a higher resistance, but not necessarily a higher output.

Well, pickups work by the laws of physics, so there should be logical reason how certain amount of windings of a certain gauge work in a pickup.

Stronger magnetic field should produce stronger current i.e more output (which starts to affect strings at some point). The strength of pickup magnet determines the point, when more wire doesn't raise the output. More resistance should darken the sound, and that resistance is determined by the lenght and thickness of coil wire (I don't know if magnetic field can affect the resistance of metal?).

Isn't that pretty much the theory behind pickup winding, or did I forget something? Of course the magnet itself, and how coil is aligned etc... have effect, but if you have identical pickups with different coil wire...

(I'm not talking how sound of pickups is perceived as that is completely subjective)
 
Re: some questions about wire

Well, pickups work by the laws of physics, so there should be logical reason how certain amount of windings of a certain gauge work in a pickup.

Stronger magnetic field should produce stronger current i.e more output (which starts to affect strings at some point). The strength of pickup magnet determines the point, when more wire doesn't raise the output. More resistance should darken the sound, and that resistance is determined by the lenght and thickness of coil wire (I don't know if magnetic field can affect the resistance of metal?).

Isn't that pretty much the theory behind pickup winding, or did I forget something? Of course the magnet itself, and how coil is aligned etc... have effect, but if you have identical pickups with different coil wire...

(I'm not talking how sound of pickups is perceived as that is completely subjective)

since you quoted me, I'm guessing you're asking me... otherwise, my bad. :D

but very little of that (mostly about magnets) has to do with my comment (about wire).

I clearly mistook you for the OP when I replied (been a long morning), but I do believe the resistance ≠ output part does nod to the part about more turns making more output. a good example of that is how the DiMarzio Super D, Super 2 and Super 3 are all about the same output, but resistance ranges from 13.68k to 8.7k to 25.0k respectively. do those all have the same gauge wire? and if they do, the bobbins wouldn't all have the same amount of wire on them... that's a little of what my previous post was suggesting.

while a pickup is the sum of the parts, it's the creative/artistic design behind how the parts are put together that gives a pickup the tone. I don't think all the people behind the best tones in music gear are wearing lab coats and pocket protectors. :D
 
Re: some questions about wire

and then there are Lace sensors. Don't understand very clearly what the thread starter was after but the first thing that hit me was he is designing a Lace Sensor.
STRAT PLUS Lace Sensor Complete Diagram Booklet (Small).jpg
 
Re: some questions about wire

there's really no "reader's digest" version of how it all works together.
but very little of that (mostly about magnets) has to do with my comment (about wire).

Just wanted to open up that pickups are really very simple components, and it's balancing it's parts that makes a difference between good and bad design. And perhaps learn something new from replies and in process of writing that out...
a good example of that is how the DiMarzio Super D, Super 2 and Super 3 are all about the same output, but resistance ranges from 13.68k to 8.7k to 25.0k respectively. do those all have the same gauge wire? and if they do, the bobbins wouldn't all have the same amount of wire on them...

Would be interesting experiment to dismantle pair and see how they actually differ...
 
Re: some questions about wire

hello,

i have some question about pickup wire.

how does a thinner or a thicker wire affect tone ?

Is it possible to make a pickup with copper sheets ?

i'd like to experiment new and odd things :P!



Well, pickups work by the laws of physics, so there should be logical reason how certain amount of windings of a certain gauge work in a pickup.

Stronger magnetic field should produce stronger current i.e more output (which starts to affect strings at some point). The strength of pickup magnet determines the point, when more wire doesn't raise the output. More resistance should darken the sound, and that resistance is determined by the lenght and thickness of coil wire (I don't know if magnetic field can affect the resistance of metal?).

Isn't that pretty much the theory behind pickup winding, or did I forget something? Of course the magnet itself, and how coil is aligned etc... have effect, but if you have identical pickups with different coil wire...

(I'm not talking how sound of pickups is perceived as that is completely subjective)

The number of turns determines the inductance. More turns = more inductance. More inductance means more voltage output and a lower resonant peak, less treble. That's rather theoretical though, the thinner wire might have different insulation thickness, or be wound looser onto the bobbin to decrease the risk of breaking the fine wire, so the wire thickness itself might not matter, but practical concerns might effect the final outcome. If a pickup has a ridiculously high DC resistance, beyond 15k, you can be certain it's made with 43 or 44 AWG wire. DiMarzio will use different gauges of wire for the two different bobbins in a lot of their humbuckers, so you'd have to measure the individual coils to see what they're doing. The pole pieces effect the inductance quite a bit also (due to permeability), AlNiCo 5 effects it the least, AlNiCo 2 or 3 increases it a bit more, while steel screws and slugs raise inductance by quite a lot.

The wire gauge doesn't really matter, because the voltage is too low to exceed the amperage limits anyway. Smaller wire makes for a smaller coil, which can effect the proportion of information the pickup sees from the string. More narrow window means more treble relative to bass, or more harmonic relative to fundamental.

As for the hookup lead wire, if the lead wire is shielded, like a PAF, the proximity of the lead and shield will add about 100pF capacitance, lowering the resonant peak, reducing treble response, the same way a longer guitar cable will. Strat type pickups with two separate lead wires have very little capacitance in contrast.
 
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Re: some questions about wire

The number of turns determines the inductance. More turns = more inductance. More inductance means more voltage output and a lower resonant peak, less treble. That's rather theoretical though, the thinner wire might have different insulation thickness, or be wound looser onto the bobbin to decrease the risk of breaking the fine wire, so the wire thickness itself might not matter, but practical concerns might effect the final outcome. If a pickup has a ridiculously high DC resistance, beyond 15k, you can be certain it's made with 43 or 44 AWG wire. DiMarzio will use different gauges of wire for the two different bobbins in a lot of their humbuckers, so you'd have to measure the individual coils to see what they're doing. The pole pieces effect the inductance quite a bit also (due to permeability), AlNiCo 5 effects it the least, AlNiCo 2 or 3 increases it a bit more, while steel screws and slugs raise inductance by quite a lot.

The wire gauge doesn't really matter, because the voltage is too low to exceed the amperage limits anyway. Smaller wire makes for a smaller coil, which can effect the proportion of information the pickup sees from the string. More narrow window means more treble relative to bass, or more harmonic relative to fundamental.

As for the hookup lead wire, if the lead wire is shielded, like a PAF, the proximity of the lead and shield will add about 100pF capacitance, lowering the resonant peak, reducing treble response, the same way a longer guitar cable will. Strat type pickups with two separate lead wires have very little capacitance in contrast.

Within your theoretical scenario, please explain p-rails...they don't fit...your theory is missing some critical factor...
 
Re: some questions about wire

Within your theoretical scenario, please explain p-rails...they don't fit...your theory is missing some critical factor...

I'm not sure what you think is missing. What do you want to see explained about P-Rails?

Also, this is not theoretical. I can cite sources if there's something you don't believe to be true.
 
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Re: some questions about wire

The wire gauge doesn't really matter, because the voltage is too low to exceed the amperage limits anyway.

Since there's enough wire to produce several kohms of resistance, wouldn't thicker wire lower it? Or is it the magnetic field that actually creates most of that resistance?
 
Re: some questions about wire

Since there's enough wire to produce several kohms of resistance, wouldn't thicker wire lower it? Or is it the magnetic field that actually creates most of that resistance?

The resistance has very little effect on the function of the pickup. It serves to dampen the resonance slightly. Pickups are "low pass filters with resonance" which means they have a flat response up until about 2.5kHz for a humbuckers, or closer to 4kHz for a Strat pickups, then there is a resonant bump, which gives it a pronounced treble, then the response drops off. The higher wire resistance would just lower that bump in amplitude a tiny bit. The difference between 42 and 43 AWG with respect to how much it lowers that bump, is barely audible, if it can be heard at all.

A changing magnetic field creates a different kind of resistance called reactance, it combines with the resistance for define complex impedance of the pickup. That doesn't have a whole lot to do with wire gauge, though.
 
Re: some questions about wire

Wire gauge in pickups for sure matters. This is pickup 101 here. Less mass = less current induced.
Its also tonally different - the way it packs on the bobbins for example. But even then you get skin effects that, even for the same amount of induction will change the balance of frequency on the output.
 
Re: some questions about wire

I'm not sure what you think is missing. What do you want to see explained about P-Rails?

Also, this is not theoretical. I can cite sources if there's something you don't believe to be true.

p-rail DCR:18.9, according to your "theory" a DCR that high should result in a dark sounding pickup - p-rails certainly are not dark at all, in fact they are downright bright. ..why?
 
Re: some questions about wire

p-rail DCR:18.9, according to your "theory" a DCR that high should result in a dark sounding pickup - p-rails certainly are not dark at all, in fact they are downright bright. ..why?

No, I said higher inductance makes for a darker pickup. DC resistance does not relate directly to inductance.
 
Re: some questions about wire

Wire gauge in pickups for sure matters. This is pickup 101 here. Less mass = less current induced.

I think you mean area as opposed to mass. Very mildly increasing the overall amplitude does not amount to a change of tone.

Its also tonally different - the way it packs on the bobbins for example. But even then you get skin effects that, even for the same amount of induction will change the balance of frequency on the output.

Skin effect is irrelevant at the applicable audio frequencies.
 
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