some questions about wire
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beaubrummels
Well-known member
Re: some questions about wire
Perhaps you haven't been here long enough to have experienced all the threads. Thanaton has been on here bashing professionals in the industry since joining; professionals who actually have the labs and equipment, create these products and do due diligence in testing them, and know how they work and why they behave the way they do - so much that they can predict an outcome of various changes in construction. Meanwhile, Thanaton has only espoused theory found on the Internet and has to date not provided one shred of actual evidence, empirical or otherwise, to support their own assertions, yet demanded more than that from the industry professionals who participate on this forum, and has done it with condescending disrespect. If you call Thanaton on it, then they fall silent or resort to circumlocution.
Thanaton is not an authority. There's no evidence they have any experience whatsoever building, repairing, testing, or playing an instrument of any sort, nor participate in music in any capacity, let alone the field of electronics. You could Google all the same information Thanaton has posted and completely eliminate them from the equation. If I had to form an opinion based on all their posts here, I'd have to say they are only on here to argue and exercise their self-righteous narcissism, and nothing else. Thanaton's greatest proven skill is a resourceful use of Google.
Some might argue experience is more valuable than theory. Experience is what actually happened. Theory is just that - yet to be really proven. Thanaton has argued what should occur based on theory, but has never offered any real evidence that it actually does occur or to what degree.
The vast majority of people on here make music. Many work professionally in the business. They got here trying to repair or improve their instrument. It is definitely not necessary to argue inductance/resistance/reactance/capacitance formulas to get a guitar working and make it sound 'better' to the owner for the music they want to make. If you plan on building pickups or working in the industry, this stuff might prove valuable. But you would be far better off taking courses at a local college than depending on some anonymous self-appointed authority on an Internet forum.
The biggest benefit of the forum is corroboration of experiences. When multiple people in multiple environments witness a similar phenomena with sound related to a pickup, tried through a variety of guitars and amps and some identical guitars and amps in different environments, that certainly is indicative and helpful when trying to narrow down and choose a pickup - IMO
Perhaps you haven't been here long enough to have experienced all the threads. Thanaton has been on here bashing professionals in the industry since joining; professionals who actually have the labs and equipment, create these products and do due diligence in testing them, and know how they work and why they behave the way they do - so much that they can predict an outcome of various changes in construction. Meanwhile, Thanaton has only espoused theory found on the Internet and has to date not provided one shred of actual evidence, empirical or otherwise, to support their own assertions, yet demanded more than that from the industry professionals who participate on this forum, and has done it with condescending disrespect. If you call Thanaton on it, then they fall silent or resort to circumlocution.
Thanaton is not an authority. There's no evidence they have any experience whatsoever building, repairing, testing, or playing an instrument of any sort, nor participate in music in any capacity, let alone the field of electronics. You could Google all the same information Thanaton has posted and completely eliminate them from the equation. If I had to form an opinion based on all their posts here, I'd have to say they are only on here to argue and exercise their self-righteous narcissism, and nothing else. Thanaton's greatest proven skill is a resourceful use of Google.
Some might argue experience is more valuable than theory. Experience is what actually happened. Theory is just that - yet to be really proven. Thanaton has argued what should occur based on theory, but has never offered any real evidence that it actually does occur or to what degree.
The vast majority of people on here make music. Many work professionally in the business. They got here trying to repair or improve their instrument. It is definitely not necessary to argue inductance/resistance/reactance/capacitance formulas to get a guitar working and make it sound 'better' to the owner for the music they want to make. If you plan on building pickups or working in the industry, this stuff might prove valuable. But you would be far better off taking courses at a local college than depending on some anonymous self-appointed authority on an Internet forum.
The biggest benefit of the forum is corroboration of experiences. When multiple people in multiple environments witness a similar phenomena with sound related to a pickup, tried through a variety of guitars and amps and some identical guitars and amps in different environments, that certainly is indicative and helpful when trying to narrow down and choose a pickup - IMO
Jacew
New member
Re: some questions about wire
I have a lot of respect for everyone here sharing their experience. But since experience is very subjective, one needs to know the theory behind, so he can evaluate and understand what he's been told.
Speaking about inductance/resistance/reactance/capacitance may seem pointless, when someone can prove that doing this to a pickup changes the tone like that. But knowing the theory behind it helps a great deal in understanding whats going on. People like Faraday or Newton have already proven those theories true.
I have a lot of respect for everyone here sharing their experience. But since experience is very subjective, one needs to know the theory behind, so he can evaluate and understand what he's been told.
Speaking about inductance/resistance/reactance/capacitance may seem pointless, when someone can prove that doing this to a pickup changes the tone like that. But knowing the theory behind it helps a great deal in understanding whats going on. People like Faraday or Newton have already proven those theories true.
frankfalbo
In Fluence Y'all
Re: some questions about wire
***Joke alert***
"To be fair, at least half of those new members were leevc5."
(For those of you unaware, we had a now repentant member starting multiple accounts so that he could argue them against one another...)
***Joke alert***
"To be fair, at least half of those new members were leevc5."
(For those of you unaware, we had a now repentant member starting multiple accounts so that he could argue them against one another...)
darthphineas
New member
Re: some questions about wire
probably a good thing I didn't say that I know any winder that actually do wind to a specific meter reading... by terms of any meter.
but... but you tell us what kind of inductance readings you get on the pickups that you wind? it appears that more and more people are developing a concern over certain experience and credentials and maybe you could put that to rest with a bit of the CV.
a) who's to say there are not other alternyms going on from other multiple active people? I know I had a Duncan employee encourage me to open a 2nd account, to which I reminded them was again forum rules and did not do.
b) is The Falbo® not going to answer the OP question about wire?
probably a good thing I didn't say that I know any winder that actually do wind to a specific meter reading... by terms of any meter.
but... but you tell us what kind of inductance readings you get on the pickups that you wind? it appears that more and more people are developing a concern over certain experience and credentials and maybe you could put that to rest with a bit of the CV.
a) who's to say there are not other alternyms going on from other multiple active people? I know I had a Duncan employee encourage me to open a 2nd account, to which I reminded them was again forum rules and did not do.
b) is The Falbo® not going to answer the OP question about wire?
GoldenVulture
Braindeadologist
Re: some questions about wire
_ http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/category/inductor - Thanatons source.
:ban:
_ http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/category/inductor - Thanatons source.
Archer250
Well-known member
Re: some questions about wire
Sent from my EVA-L19 using Tapatalk
Lol. That was the implied meaning.
Sent from my EVA-L19 using Tapatalk
frankfalbo
In Fluence Y'all
Re: some questions about wire
Edit: I believe this does both, Mincer, but if you believe otherwise please delete the whole post or let me know and I will do so.
There are also a lot of posts on the pickup makers forum that seem to mirror a lot of the narratives that he brings here. (Sorry to refer to you in 3rd person, thanaton) There's a profile there named Antigua who says a lot of the same things, and was recently banned from mylespaul's forum for combative, "prove it" and "gotcha" style posts but regardless of the similarities, it's the same type of sentiment.
And to be fair, if you're educated in the science of it all, it is very easy to slip into the methodical explanation of all of these characteristics. The textbook says "these are the rules for a coil/magnet/etc." and you can simply apply them at face value.
But for those of us who have the field knowledge, we have seen time and time again an engineer say "there's no way you can hear the difference" and the artist says "I can hear a difference". Often times if an engineer is humble, willing to listen, the artist can show them "See? See when I do this and that how it doesn't respond the same way?" And then the engineer realizes that there is more to the story.
I'm not talking about defying the laws of physics with unsubstantiated snake oil. All it means is that you haven't designed a test method that can produce the delta. Countless times I've worked with an engineer who said "that's impossible, it doesn't show up on any of my test equipment" and the answer is, you're not focusing magnification onto the right set of circumstances.
I work in the industry and am bound by multiple confidentiality agreements because companies don't generally like to outwardly train their future competition. There is an entitlement mentality that believes that all information belongs to me, I should be able to Google anything I want and get the result. If the answer is not provided by the DIY community then the company or researchers should disclose it when I ask for it, otherwise I can nullify their claims as marketing lies and half-truths, or say "if YOU don't know why, then why should I buy from you?"
To go back to an earlier concept in this thread, with regard to how the different gauges or insulation thickness lays down onto a coil when wound with the same number of turns per layer, or altered so that the physical distance between each turn is matched...that information doesn't belong to you until you've wound enough pickups to possess the information, or someone was kind enough (or foolish depending on your perspective) to share their findings. Even then, you won't know if their methods are valid.
The reason people trust me here (and I'm very greatful for that) is because I've made and released products that validate my claims. I've told people that a certain pickup will do a certain thing, and I've been right about it, time and again. That hasn't meant that everybody hears it. Some will say "I tried it and didn't think it sounded different" and presumably they're correct for their rig, or their ears, their playing style, etc.
In contrast, some who debate the theoretical have told people something is NOT audible, and forum members are telling them it's false because they have heard a difference. That makes you wrong, even if the person has no idea how to explain why, and you can crush them in an internet argument based on other people's research.
So to the nuances of wire gauge/type/lay/insulation thickness/etc? Look at it like this: on paper, a 59n with A2 should sound like a Pearly Gates neck, but it doesn't. But they're both 42AWG plain enamel, right?! Wound to WELL below 1dB of difference anywhere on the spectrum. Pole pieces? On paper, a Full Shred bridge should sound just like a Custom 5 but it doesn't. Layout? A PCB tube amp should sound exactly like its point to point wired predecessor, but it doesn't. Or maybe it does, but ONLY after you change a few things around to bring back the nuance you had in the original.
Edit: I believe this does both, Mincer, but if you believe otherwise please delete the whole post or let me know and I will do so.
There are also a lot of posts on the pickup makers forum that seem to mirror a lot of the narratives that he brings here. (Sorry to refer to you in 3rd person, thanaton) There's a profile there named Antigua who says a lot of the same things, and was recently banned from mylespaul's forum for combative, "prove it" and "gotcha" style posts but regardless of the similarities, it's the same type of sentiment.
And to be fair, if you're educated in the science of it all, it is very easy to slip into the methodical explanation of all of these characteristics. The textbook says "these are the rules for a coil/magnet/etc." and you can simply apply them at face value.
But for those of us who have the field knowledge, we have seen time and time again an engineer say "there's no way you can hear the difference" and the artist says "I can hear a difference". Often times if an engineer is humble, willing to listen, the artist can show them "See? See when I do this and that how it doesn't respond the same way?" And then the engineer realizes that there is more to the story.
I'm not talking about defying the laws of physics with unsubstantiated snake oil. All it means is that you haven't designed a test method that can produce the delta. Countless times I've worked with an engineer who said "that's impossible, it doesn't show up on any of my test equipment" and the answer is, you're not focusing magnification onto the right set of circumstances.
I work in the industry and am bound by multiple confidentiality agreements because companies don't generally like to outwardly train their future competition. There is an entitlement mentality that believes that all information belongs to me, I should be able to Google anything I want and get the result. If the answer is not provided by the DIY community then the company or researchers should disclose it when I ask for it, otherwise I can nullify their claims as marketing lies and half-truths, or say "if YOU don't know why, then why should I buy from you?"
To go back to an earlier concept in this thread, with regard to how the different gauges or insulation thickness lays down onto a coil when wound with the same number of turns per layer, or altered so that the physical distance between each turn is matched...that information doesn't belong to you until you've wound enough pickups to possess the information, or someone was kind enough (or foolish depending on your perspective) to share their findings. Even then, you won't know if their methods are valid.
The reason people trust me here (and I'm very greatful for that) is because I've made and released products that validate my claims. I've told people that a certain pickup will do a certain thing, and I've been right about it, time and again. That hasn't meant that everybody hears it. Some will say "I tried it and didn't think it sounded different" and presumably they're correct for their rig, or their ears, their playing style, etc.
In contrast, some who debate the theoretical have told people something is NOT audible, and forum members are telling them it's false because they have heard a difference. That makes you wrong, even if the person has no idea how to explain why, and you can crush them in an internet argument based on other people's research.
So to the nuances of wire gauge/type/lay/insulation thickness/etc? Look at it like this: on paper, a 59n with A2 should sound like a Pearly Gates neck, but it doesn't. But they're both 42AWG plain enamel, right?! Wound to WELL below 1dB of difference anywhere on the spectrum. Pole pieces? On paper, a Full Shred bridge should sound just like a Custom 5 but it doesn't. Layout? A PCB tube amp should sound exactly like its point to point wired predecessor, but it doesn't. Or maybe it does, but ONLY after you change a few things around to bring back the nuance you had in the original.
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RogerMexiko
New member
Re: some questions about wire
Done. If I want to know how a pickup will sound will listen myself or ask the respected members here for advice. Know the sky is blue, the scientists explanation of why does me no good, just enjoy the blues.
Done. If I want to know how a pickup will sound will listen myself or ask the respected members here for advice. Know the sky is blue, the scientists explanation of why does me no good, just enjoy the blues.
darthphineas
New member
Re: some questions about wire
Firstly, most pickup winders don't create their own AlNiCo or steel parts. Both of these things effect the inductance. Improperly foundered AlNiCo or the wrong grade of steel will give you a different inductance. AlNiCo is not hard to mess up, it's multiple step process to create the alloy. If they get a bad batch made with off spec metals, they will have no way of detecting it with DC resistance alone, and it will adversely effect the performance.
By the way, this is all basic physics relating to how core materials effect the performance of inductors and transformers. This is not esoteric knowledge that only relates to guitar pickups.
Second, the inductance actually factors into how the pickup will sound, DC resistance mostly does not, so a correct DC resistance is only saying that the wire's thickness and conductivity are as to be expected, but it does not say the pickup should create a sound that is expected, inductance does.
As far as why pickup winders don't do this now, and life somehow goes on, because pickup tone is subjective to the point that there are no mistakes, just happy accidents. If the customer gets a pickup with bad AlNiCo, the pickup will probably just seem a little bright, or dark. They won't realize the pickup isn't performing as it should if it did not have defective AlNiCo.
Firstly, most pickup winders don't create their own AlNiCo or steel parts. Both of these things effect the inductance. Improperly foundered AlNiCo or the wrong grade of steel will give you a different inductance. AlNiCo is not hard to mess up, it's multiple step process to create the alloy. If they get a bad batch made with off spec metals, they will have no way of detecting it with DC resistance alone, and it will adversely effect the performance.
By the way, this is all basic physics relating to how core materials effect the performance of inductors and transformers. This is not esoteric knowledge that only relates to guitar pickups.
Second, the inductance actually factors into how the pickup will sound, DC resistance mostly does not, so a correct DC resistance is only saying that the wire's thickness and conductivity are as to be expected, but it does not say the pickup should create a sound that is expected, inductance does.
As far as why pickup winders don't do this now, and life somehow goes on, because pickup tone is subjective to the point that there are no mistakes, just happy accidents. If the customer gets a pickup with bad AlNiCo, the pickup will probably just seem a little bright, or dark. They won't realize the pickup isn't performing as it should if it did not have defective AlNiCo.
darthphineas
New member
Re: some questions about wire
normally this level of trolling is akin to the sort of entertainment people get from watching a documentary about how those little dung beetles keep trying to push their much-cherished haul up that little hill. but not only does that reply have absolutely nothing to do with my post (as did the previous reply to my previous post), it's incredibly insulting to the artisans that do design and make pickups that give us all a reason to even be here talking about tone.
normally this level of trolling is akin to the sort of entertainment people get from watching a documentary about how those little dung beetles keep trying to push their much-cherished haul up that little hill. but not only does that reply have absolutely nothing to do with my post (as did the previous reply to my previous post), it's incredibly insulting to the artisans that do design and make pickups that give us all a reason to even be here talking about tone.
LtKojak
New member
Re: some questions about wire
How many alnico batches have you poured and verified the outcome can be considered "wrong alnico"?
Also, HOW do you test for "bad alnico", or "improperly foundered" alnico? What tools do you have at your disposal to batch-testing, so you can protect yourself and your customers?
I'm all ears!
Well...?
You may know the process very well, so tell me by illustrating an example: let's say you're doing an A2 batch: now explain in words I can understand what part/s of the process may require your full attention, as it's "not hard to mess up".
How many alnico batches have you poured and verified the outcome can be considered "wrong alnico"?
Also, HOW do you test for "bad alnico", or "improperly foundered" alnico? What tools do you have at your disposal to batch-testing, so you can protect yourself and your customers?
I'm all ears!
Well...?
Last edited:
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