some questions about wire

[RogerMexiko]

Re: some questions about wire

I'm not sure what you think is missing. What do you want to see explained about P-Rails?

Also, this is not theoretical. I can cite sources if there's something you don't believe to be true.

I apologize, my mistake mixing up DCR and Inductance. Inductance seems a somewhat vague criteria as their does not seem to be an agreed upon measurement technique within the pickup manufacturing community as far as my very limited understanding goes.
It would be greatly appreciated if you could cite sources regarding Inductance, I would like to understand it better.

 

[thanaton]

Re: some questions about wire

I apologize, my mistake mixing up DCR and Inductance. Inductance seems a somewhat vague criteria as their does not seem to be an agreed upon measurement technique within the pickup manufacturing community as far as my very limited understanding goes.
It would be greatly appreciated if you could cite sources regarding Inductance, I would like to understand it better.

Per Faraday's law, you get a current when there is a change in flux in an area of conductive material. Eddy currents in metal covers are an example of currents moving in response to a changing magnetic flux, in a piece of conductive metal that is not necessarily a coil of wire.

When you change the flux through a coil of wire, a current flows, but then a second magnetic field is created in and around the coil. That magnetic field remains there for a moment, and so when the current changes direction all of the sudden, as the string moves back and forth, the existing magnetic field opposes the current that is now moving in the other direction, creating a momentary resistance, which is referred to as reactance. The higher the inductance, the higher the inductive reactance. Steel poles and screws increase the inductance and reactance because they allow a stronger magnetic field to form around the coil.

So you have current, and you have reactance (which is just a momentary resistance), per Ohm's law (voltage = current * resistance), you get voltage. So when you get a higher inductive reactance, you get a higher voltage for a given induced current. That's why pickups become louder as you pack on more winds.

As far as citation, there are a lot of sites that talk about inductive reactance, I could pick one, but I don't know which is the best.

 

[RogerMexiko]

Re: some questions about wire

Per Faraday's law, you get a current when there is a change in flux in an area of conductive material. Eddy currents in metal covers are an example of currents moving in response to a changing magnetic flux, in a piece of conductive metal that is not necessarily a coil of wire.

When you change the flux through a coil of wire, a current flows, but then a second magnetic field is created in and around the coil. That magnetic field remains there for a moment, and so when the current changes direction all of the sudden, as the string moves back and forth, the existing magnetic field opposes the current that is now moving in the other direction, creating a momentary resistance, which is referred to as reactance. The higher the inductance, the higher the inductive reactance. Steel poles and screws increase the inductance and reactance because they allow a stronger magnetic field to form around the coil.

So you have current, and you have reactance (which is just a momentary resistance), per Ohm's law (voltage = current * resistance), you get voltage. So when you get a higher inductive reactance, you get a higher voltage for a given induced current. That's why pickups become louder as you pack on more winds.

As far as citation, there are a lot of sites that talk about inductive reactance, I could pick one, but I don't know which is the best.

way over my head.
I have 4 pickups, I want to measure the inductance. How do I do it, what data will I get and how do I interpret the data?

 

[Jacew]

Re: some questions about wire

Since there's enough wire to produce several kohms of resistance, wouldn't thicker wire lower it? Or is it the magnetic field that actually creates most of that resistance?

The resistance has very little effect on the function of the pickup. It serves to dampen the resonance slightly. Pickups are "low pass filters with resonance" which means they have a flat response up until about 2.5kHz for a humbuckers, or closer to 4kHz for a Strat pickups, then there is a resonant bump, which gives it a pronounced treble, then the response drops off. The higher wire resistance would just lower that bump in amplitude a tiny bit. The difference between 42 and 43 AWG with respect to how much it lowers that bump, is barely audible, if it can be heard at all.

Nice to know, but didn't fully answer my question. So DCR of the coil is determined just by the amount of wire and wire gauge, and just serves as a clue how much windings that pickup has, rather than affecting the tone itself?

 

[AlexR]

Re: some questions about wire

There are artifacts that creep in as you wind higher and higher with each gauge. You would actually need a winder to explain the details, as it is specific to pickups, but you cram more and more onto a certain shape.

 

[darthphineas]

Re: some questions about wire

You would actually need a winder to explain the details.

^^^ this ^^^

 

[thanaton]

Re: some questions about wire

Nice to know, but didn't fully answer my question. So DCR of the coil is determined just by the amount of wire and wire gauge, and just serves as a clue how much windings that pickup has, rather than affecting the tone itself?

Exactly.

 

[thanaton]

Re: some questions about wire

There are artifacts that creep in as you wind higher and higher with each gauge. You would actually need a winder to explain the details, as it is specific to pickups

That would be excellent. Oh pickup winders! Oh pickup winders! Where are you?

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: some questions about wire

Well, pickups work by the laws of physics, so there should be logical reason how certain amount of windings of a certain gauge work in a pickup.

Stronger magnetic field should produce stronger current i.e more output (which starts to affect strings at some point). The strength of pickup magnet determines the point, when more wire doesn't raise the output. More resistance should darken the sound, and that resistance is determined by the lenght and thickness of coil wire (I don't know if magnetic field can affect the resistance of metal?).

Isn't that pretty much the theory behind pickup winding, or did I forget something? Of course the magnet itself, and how coil is aligned etc... have effect, but if you have identical pickups with different coil wire...

(I'm not talking how sound of pickups is perceived as that is completely subjective)

All else being equal, that is true...more winds = more resistance = darker tone (not necessarily more output, but usually).

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: some questions about wire

p-rail DCR:18.9, according to your "theory" a DCR that high should result in a dark sounding pickup - p-rails certainly are not dark at all, in fact they are downright bright. ..why?

Actually, the P-Rail (in series) IS quite dark (especially the bridge model at 18.9 DCR, but even the neck at 13 DCR is quite dark in series). Even the P-90 coil by itself is quite dark compared to other "vintage" P-90s.

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: some questions about wire

Since there's enough wire to produce several kohms of resistance, wouldn't thicker wire lower it? Or is it the magnetic field that actually creates most of that resistance?

Same number of winds, thicker wire will generally lower the resistance (again...all else being equal).

 

[AlexR]

Re: some questions about wire

That would be excellent. Oh pickup winders! Oh pickup winders! Where are you?

Last time they were about you didn't bother to listen......and the time before that.....and the time before that.

 

[RogerMexiko]

Re: some questions about wire

Last time they were about you didn't bother to listen......and the time before that.....and the time before that.

^^^^+10
this dude talks techy but never comes through with any verifiable data or practical applications...

 

[AlexR]

Re: some questions about wire

Same number of winds, thicker wire will generally lower the resistance (again...all else being equal).

In addition......comparing to 42 gauge used for vintage fender/gibson pickups, 43 gauge is 17% more in resistance per unit length, and 44 about 18% more than 43.

Not only does the signal induced alter slightly with each gauge, but there are other aspects involved to do with the way the wire can be laid down on the bobbin. the thickest wire packs down nowhere near as well as the really thin stuff, so there can be large gaps in the layers where the wire is messily laid down. You can get all sorts of tonal differences too with the way the wire was laid down on the bobbins - the scatter effect. Its one of the reasons (as well as the final shape of the coil on the bobbin) why PAF's have such a tonal variance.
The thinner wire packs down really tightly, so you can make pickups that have a really tight tonal focus should you choose to. There are other aspects of the note that can be tweaked too.

Frank Falbo is by far THE best guy who regularly posts here for this type of info. David Plummer from Zhangbucker is also really good at these sort of explanantions. These two are the guys who have done the testing and have the real hands on experience.

 

[darthphineas]

Re: some questions about wire

Frank Falbo is by far THE best guy who regularly posts here for this type of info.

Agreed.

 

[thanaton]

Re: some questions about wire

^^^^+10
this dude talks techy but never comes through with any verifiable data or practical applications...

You don't actually know that anything I said is incorrect. You don't know that what Frank Falbo says is correct. If rather than hit the books and learn this stuff for yourself, you'd rather decide which know-it-all does the best song-and-dance, more power to you. Even if you learn this stuff just to prove my statements wrong, you will still have learned something. Maybe I just make lots of fallacious statements just to motivate people like yourself.

 

[thanaton]

Re: some questions about wire

You can get all sorts of tonal differences too with the way the wire was laid down on the bobbins - the scatter effect. Its one of the reasons (as well as the final shape of the coil on the bobbin) why PAF's have such a tonal variance.
The thinner wire packs down really tightly, so you can make pickups that have a really tight tonal focus should you choose to.

[citation needed]

 

[RogerMexiko]

Re: some questions about wire

You don't actually know that anything I said is incorrect. You don't know that what Frank Falbo says is correct. If rather than hit the books and learn this stuff for yourself, you'd rather decide which know-it-all does the best song-and-dance, more power to you. Even if you learn this stuff just to prove my statements wrong, you will still have learned something. Maybe I just make lots of fallacious statements just to motivate people like yourself.

I had a simple question: tell me how to measure the inductance on 4 pickups; what data will I get; haw do I interpret the data? Should be simple for some one like you but you couldn't provide that simple answer. That is why I doubt you, you provide lots of esoteric theories which you say are well documented: 1. when asked to provide a link to that documentation you do not. 2. when asked to provide practical test for these theories you do not.

Frank Falbo's experience in this area is well documented, we don't know who the heck you are or where you come up with this snake oil pontificates. Put up or shut up as they say.

This concludes any further arguments on my part it is not proper edict for this forum.

 

[AlexR]

Re: some questions about wire

Thanaton

Why bother, you never listen anyhow.....not even from people who know exponentially more about this than you. And when we do start to talk proof and or giving readings you change the subject or try some other pathetic wriggling-out tactic that is plainly obvious to all of us.

You're like the forum jester.....but you are trying to be serious which makes it all the more sad for you. I simply can't understand how you can be wrong/misguided about practically every aspect of real-world pickups

 

[thanaton]

Re: some questions about wire

I had a simple question: tell me how to measure the inductance on 4 pickups; what data will I get; haw do I interpret the data?

There are two ways to do it. Buy a suitable LCR meter, such as an Extech 380193, set it to series resistance, 120Hz test frequency, hook it up to the pickup and see what it says. Note while you're at it that you can't use an LCR meter to measure the capacitance of a pickup, because it is an closed circuit to direct current, while an actual capacitor is not.

The other way is to measures the resonant peak with an oscilloscope and a function generator. Add a capacitor of a known value value, such as 2nF, in parallel with the pickup, measure the peak again, then solve for L, from C and f.

The higher the inductance value, the higher lower the resonant peak will be, and the darker the pickup will sound, all other things being equal, which they often are.