Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

[Diego]

I'd been using only my Line 6 M13 and sometimes a Jet City OD pedal with my Tweaker for the last couple of months.
Growingly unsatisfied with some of the sounds from it, I put my old Boss CE-2 and a EHX Memory Toy back in the rig, alongside my Jet City Afterburner pedal which is a TS-esque OD with an extra boost stage to save your ass for leads.
I'm using them in front of my Egnater Tweaker set to clean. The M13 going both through the front and the loop (4 cable method).

The stompboxes just have a certain character, grit and warmth that I can't get from the M13. I'll use a tap tempo delay setting on the M13 if I need a quick, tight repeat on something,
but the Memory Toy kills at generating a long sea of modulated repeats.

Can't the M13 do an analog delay with modulation and more? Yeah, absolutely. But the repeats with the analog models in the M13 don't swirl and diffuse in the same way the EHX does.
The EHX has a more unstable, unpredictable response. It's dirtier and more "incorrect" and that's what's amazing about it.
And it boosts the signal a bit, which it shouldn't do. It's not perfect, and that gives it a personality.

And I like using the CE-2 on it's own, to keep the M13 busy with other things instead of 80's cheese.
The CE-1 model in the M13 is the ****ing balls, though. It really sounds excellent.

The dirt, EQ and compressor models in the M13 aren't that good IMO, which is why I've kept using the Jet City. The decay in all the OD models is just ****ed up, regardless of my amp settings. Only way to avoid that is to go for really low gain models.
I also miss my old Dynacomp quite a bit now, even if the damn thing had a mind of it's own.

Anyway, I really don't have much of a point here. I just wanted to share my experience bringing some standalone, analog units back in my rig.
I do not think that analog units are "just better", since I'm truly no snob. I don't care if an amp is SS, digital or tube, or if my pedals are analog or digital as long as it sounds and feels right.
But there's certain quirks that your analog pedals surely have, that a digital version will not always replicate as such, even if it's doing an excellent job at it.

--------

EDIT: I read that a bit and it sounds like I hate my M13. I love it! The reverbs, delays and all the modulations sound AMAZING. The Univibe, Leslie and some of the synth engine sounds I don't wanna live without! And it's pretty easy to set it up and have it ready for a gig.

 

[Demanic]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

Probably has something to do with quantum fluctuations in the analog circuit that have a cascade effect on the final signal that digital can't copy exactly. Yet.

Sent from my MotoE2(4G-LTE) using Tapatalk

 

[some_dude]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

I don't think it's a 1s and 0s thing so much as a multi-effect thing.

It's very rare for me to find a single unit that that does two things that I really like. It's why I like single function pedals... I'm free to mix-and-match until I find the right combination to produce the sounds that I want.

Beyond that, I don't find digital behaves with distortion correctly.

 

[Diego]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

Probably has something to do with quantum fluctuations in the analog circuit that have a cascade effect on the final signal that digital can't copy exactly. Yet.

Sent from my MotoE2(4G-LTE) using Tapatalk

I'm too stupid to understand what you're on about, man.

I don't think it's a 1s and 0s thing so much as a multi-effect thing.

It's very rare for me to find a single unit that that does two things that I really like. It's why I like single function pedals... I'm free to mix-and-match until I find the right combination to produce the sounds that I want.

Beyond that, I don't find digital behaves with distortion correctly.

The M13 is the first multiFX unit I've ever owned. I really like it but if you use it as intended, which would be replacing all your pedals, it falls short.

I'm coming to terms with what it does right and what doesn't. I decided to buy an M13 when I saw it on Soren Andersen's pedalboard (Interviewed by Lee Anderton), and he mentioned that some things were iffy but others were excellent. I don't know Soren too well, but he's a session player that knows his gear and has a good ear.

So far, it's been an excellent purchase.

 

[Demanic]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

It just means that there is something going on with the analog that they haven't exactly been able to figure out yet, in order to digitally model.

Sent from my MotoE2(4G-LTE) using Tapatalk

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

Failing or otherwise wonky circuitry due to either poor base component quality or inconsistency in manufacturing processes can produce artifacts and other audible fluctuations. Given the fact that music is as individual as thought and speech, these fluctuations can be favorable to one, while grating to another. Digital modeling seeks the "ideal" where the quality of components that create the intended circuit maintain a more rigid level of quality - good or bad.

Line 6 favors vintage gear for their modeling, and they typically (according to their dev logs and such, anyway) have only one of a given unit - Roger Mayer FuzzFace, Dallas Arbiter Fuzz units, EHX Big Muff, etc - so they only have that one pedal as a reference.

And then you have the inconsistency in the quality of the base components which make up that unit itself. While you can test 2 or 3 or even 5 of the same pedal at the store and not find an audible difference, comparing one in Los Angeles to one in New York to one in the middle of Poland to one in Santiago, you might find an audible difference. This applies to analog pedals as well as digital units.

And then you have the various intricacies that are inherent to chaining together multiple separate single-function pedals with each one having an Input and Output buffer, the impedance mismatch of each unit's In and Out jacks and the cable that connects them, and the effect each cable between each pedal has, not to mention fluctuations in how they handle the incoming electrical power (battery or plugged-in).
Even rack units are not immune to this phenomenon: running a preamp unit into an EQ unit into a Reverb unit all made by the same manufacturer of the same series (BOSS' 1/2 rack units, for example) will sound different from an all-in-one unit made by the same company, in the same series (and theoretically using the same circuits).

I'd wager that if you took the boards out of individual units and bound them together directly into one larger housing, eliminating the jacks and cables between them with more-direct connections, you would also hear a difference.

However, that difference would still be favorable to one and grating to another.


This is part of the reason why I wish modeling units worked off of a circuitry modeling concept instead of an "end-result" concept. One could, in theory, alter certain key components of a given effect's "circuitry" (which would all be entirely digital) - change the value of a given resistor, capacitor, or even bridge connections that were not normally bridged - anything and everything that pedal mods encompass. If the components were effectively modeled, including their electrical operating ranges and limits (i.e. how much voltage they can take before melting, and how little they can receive and still function), and those settings could be tweaked, you would find them capable of replicating analog units more accurately, especially if you could program the components to fluctuate across their spectrums, which the real things do over time. With some pedals, they develop audible changes the longer you have power running through them and the circuitry reacts to the heat. Sometimes they seem to weaken, other times they sound better than when they were first set up.
You don't get that with digital models because they're constrained to an expected end-result.

What you do get is consistency. They will sound the same day after day, for years, and are not given to "multiple personality disorders" like analog units. These inherent inconsistencies can only be appreciated by the user, and when they're ruining an important gig, they're not appreciated, nor do they reflect positively on the product. If their "little quirks" affect your performance, then they make you look bad. I had to remove a pedal from my rig at a gig once that was giving me trouble. I unplugged it and tossed it in a trash can near the stage and continued on without it. I don't need that kind of negativity at a gig.

 

[Demanic]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

Failing or otherwise wonky circuitry due to either poor base component quality or inconsistency in manufacturing processes can produce artifacts and other audible fluctuations. Given the fact that music is as individual as thought and speech, these fluctuations can be favorable to one, while grating to another. Digital modeling seeks the "ideal" where the quality of components that create the intended circuit maintain a more rigid level of quality - good or bad.

Line 6 favors vintage gear for their modeling, and they typically (according to their dev logs and such, anyway) have only one of a given unit - Roger Mayer FuzzFace, Dallas Arbiter Fuzz units, EHX Big Muff, etc - so they only have that one pedal as a reference.

And then you have the inconsistency in the quality of the base components which make up that unit itself. While you can test 2 or 3 or even 5 of the same pedal at the store and not find an audible difference, comparing one in Los Angeles to one in New York to one in the middle of Poland to one in Santiago, you might find an audible difference. This applies to analog pedals as well as digital units.

And then you have the various intricacies that are inherent to chaining together multiple separate single-function pedals with each one having an Input and Output buffer, the impedance mismatch of each unit's In and Out jacks and the cable that connects them, and the effect each cable between each pedal has, not to mention fluctuations in how they handle the incoming electrical power (battery or plugged-in).
Even rack units are not immune to this phenomenon: running a preamp unit into an EQ unit into a Reverb unit all made by the same manufacturer of the same series (BOSS' 1/2 rack units, for example) will sound different from an all-in-one unit made by the same company, in the same series (and theoretically using the same circuits).

I'd wager that if you took the boards out of individual units and bound them together directly into one larger housing, eliminating the jacks and cables between them with more-direct connections, you would also hear a difference.

However, that difference would still be favorable to one and grating to another.


This is part of the reason why I wish modeling units worked off of a circuitry modeling concept instead of an "end-result" concept. One could, in theory, alter certain key components of a given effect's "circuitry" (which would all be entirely digital) - change the value of a given resistor, capacitor, or even bridge connections that were not normally bridged - anything and everything that pedal mods encompass. If the components were effectively modeled, including their electrical operating ranges and limits (i.e. how much voltage they can take before melting, and how little they can receive and still function), and those settings could be tweaked, you would find them capable of replicating analog units more accurately, especially if you could program the components to fluctuate across their spectrums, which the real things do over time. With some pedals, they develop audible changes the longer you have power running through them and the circuitry reacts to the heat. Sometimes they seem to weaken, other times they sound better than when they were first set up.
You don't get that with digital models because they're constrained to an expected end-result.

What you do get is consistency. They will sound the same day after day, for years, and are not given to "multiple personality disorders" like analog units. These inherent inconsistencies can only be appreciated by the user, and when they're ruining an important gig, they're not appreciated, nor do they reflect positively on the product. If their "little quirks" affect your performance, then they make you look bad. I had to remove a pedal from my rig at a gig once that was giving me trouble. I unplugged it and tossed it in a trash can near the stage and continued on without it. I don't need that kind of negativity at a gig.

Like I said. Quantum fluctuations.

Sent from my MotoE2(4G-LTE) using Tapatalk

 

[Demanic]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

Thanks Doc.

Sent from my MotoE2(4G-LTE) using Tapatalk

 

[BriGuy1968]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

I hear ya on the best use of a multifx pedal. I use a Zoom G5 in a similar fashion to how you're using your M13. There are some things that it's great at and others only so-so. I find that I kinda hate the distortion "pedals" in it, but really like some of the amp models. I'm not a huge user of modulation effects and not very picky about them either, so the G5's are great as far as I'm concerned (I honestly couldn't tell you if they're true to the originals or not). Noise gates, compressors, delays, reverbs... all great, but not necessarily usable as far as my chain is concerned. I use my amp's reverb and a separate delay pedal to keep things simpler.

MultiFX can be great when used in combination with other pedals. I'm sure if I invested in a Helix or something I could have all the options I needed without a need for other pedals, but for now the investment in my G5 has been a good one for me.

 

[Vasshu the humanoid typhoon]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

It is string theory....pedals connects the universe....
That is why truth bypasses are bad for the connections....or something....

 

[some_dude]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

I really dig the Boss ES-3 concept. I know they're not the first to do this, but I really like the execution.

Build a multi-effect that excels at doing thing things that digital is really good at, allow it to control analogue pedals that are doing things that analogue pedals are really good at, and allow it to control your tube amp that is doing the things that tube amps are really good at.

 

[Diego]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

That's a lot of inputs/outputs.

I didn't know about that unit, I'll look it up.

 

[Vasshu the humanoid typhoon]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

I think that Boss had an brilliant idea there!
Very neat indeed!

 

[Chickenwings]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

we are getting that new boss pedal in the shop ive been working at recently. Looking forward to trying it.

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

One thing I've always felt BOSS could do is build a totally analog unit that contained all the redundant circuitry of their pedals, with mechanical switching of the various components that make each pedal unique, as in what separates a DS-1 from an OD-2. The defining component circuit is linked to the footswitch, which simply swaps them out, like how a pickup selector operates.

It'd probably be a 3 or 4-space rack unit, to hold all the different board types (Gain, Modulation, Delay/Reverb) and extra layer of components to be swapped in and out, but you'd (theoretically) have a setup that was closer to having the individual pedals tonewise, as well as the fullest range of pedals available. Link it to a programmable bank system so you can recall any combination (OD-2+Chorus+Reverb, DS-1+Delay) and full Expression Pedal functionality, as well as individual effect On/Off within a bank/patch.

You eliminate the "digital sounds anemic" arguments, though you do retain the "quantum fluctuations" factor due to the missing jacks and cables. Then again, you hear it the way the designers originally intended, without the fluctuations of the jacks and cables, at least.

And leave off the amp sims and cab sims. Put them in a box together so that's all that's in it.

 

[Mincer]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

I always dug the M13, (I use a smaller M9 now), and I was absolutely able to clone my analog delay pedals and overdrives with it. I did side-by-side comparisons, and I stuck with the small M9. If there is a difference, I couldn't tell when I had the actual pedal it was modeling.

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

Same here. I compared my M13 to my OD-2, RAT, Metal Zone, and BK Butler Tube Drivers. Aside from a very slight variance between the ranges of the RATs (M13 seemed to kick in later, but did more once it did), I'm also comparing recently-made originals to vintage models.

I even posted a clip here of me playing along to Ride The Lightning using the Big Muff model through a JCM800, and blended right in with the CD track.

I'm convinced that most of the "digital sounds digitally" comes from preconceived notions and prejudices, and that in a true blind test between the real thing and an M13 that was set up properly, very few people could pick the M13 out, and most of the ones who could would just be a random lucky guess.

 

[Diego]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

That's pretty weird. Maybe it just doesn't like my amp. But the note decay is really dodgy with the M13 distortion models, regardless if the amp is clean or not.

Since my Jet City OD pedal is out of business for a few days, I've been using the M13 for almost everything now.
Can't quite nail what the OD box did.

 

[Little Pigbacon]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

I like modularity and the infinite flexibility of separate pedals. The costs are worth it to me.

 

[TimmyPage]

Re: Some things, zeroes and ones just can't do. [Warning: Long-ish read)

I think half of the 'magic' with analog effects, especially the bucket brigade style ones, is the subtle darkening of your base tone. If you take an MXR Carbon Copy and you turn the mix all the way down, you still get this little 'vibe' of darkness when you turn the pedal on, and then it gets mixed with the dark repeats for something that is even more special. The same goes for Chorus, Flangers, Phasers etc. A certain 'magic' in feel that digital pedals don't usually recreate. I say 'don't usually', because some pedals like the Nemesis do it really convincingly, and add that subtle input filtering when you use an analog delay so it 'feels' really real. Contrast that with Strymon or Neunaber who keep your tone super super pure and mix it with the effect which sounds really crisp and clean and 'modern'.

Personally I love the latter, I'm a big fan of crisp crystally digital choruses and of really plain/unaffected digital delays with just a touch of diffusion on the attack. The only analog pedals on my board are my Suhr Eclipse Distortion (which I'm 90% sure has some kind of digital brain in it anyway) and the SP Comp/sometimes the Vise Grip which.. digital can do compression just fine there just aren't any good ones on the market at the moment that aren't rackmount or exclusive to digital audio suites in music production software.