SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

[freefrog]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

That's a good point about stacking capacitance, it's just that I want to be in control of it as much as I can.

Understood.

I believe I might have used a 5 ft cable before with no noticeable difference but I'll try it again.

Its lenght doesn't suffice to define the capacitance of a cable: a cheapo 10ft "Yellow Cable" is almost 5 times more capacitive than a 10ft "Sommer LLX" (which is the guitar cable with the lowest capacitance available on the market, AFAIK... AND not an expensive one, FWIW).
Personally, I've a bunch of wires exhibiting low to high capacitive values and I treat them as "natural EQ's" for passive pickups, along with inner capacitors, "capacitive load boxes", LRC filters, and other ways to fine tune the tone (including the resistors mentioned by our colleagues above).

Anyways, about the trem setting and springs, do you believe that I should replace the springs? Reduce the tension?
I could also probably float my trem a little more as well because it is relatively flush right now.

I believe that it might be useful to try various springs with various tensions because I'm not able to predict the result: there's too much variables at play here. I just know that IME, any part conveying the resonance of the strings is susceptible to affect the resonance of a guitar, even plugged. YMMV.

 

[Ascension]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

I have run the SSL 5 a few times in the bridge on Strats both with SSL 1's and with AP II's and found the SSL 5 to be quite bright, abrupt in the attack and harsh compared to the humbuckers I normally use in the bridge on my guitars. I finally went to a Duncan Texas hot bridge in my last Strat and saw a huge difference in the way the pickup felt and sounded. A noticeable difference in feel with a much softer less abrupt attack and a fatter smoother tone. If you do this remember the Texas Hot is north leading so if you are using a RW/RP middle for a humbucking pos 2 and 4 it will need to go to the neck and the standard wind to the center.

 

[ZolloKaptain]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

So, I have been thinking about some things and was wondering what all your opinions on the matter would be.

As I'm waiting for some pots that I ordered to arrive I'm starting to think that it might not be worth it to go down this rabbit hole of modding my guitar heavily. Of course there are many different approaches and none of them are right or wrong but people who I would say get almost exactly at the tone that I want, go through almost none of this. Bjorn riis from gilmourish.com has gone on to say he almost always keeps his tone knobs at 10 and volume at 10, he's never wired a capacitor or resistor in, he just changes his pickups.

So really I'm wondering here if I'm just going against the natural sound of the instrument and not really fixing an issue. In that case, it's likely I might never find a concrete answer.

I do not have an unlimited budget or amount of free time, in fact I have a rare amount of free time now that I was hoping to use to do a bunch of recordings.

I am still planning on making changes to this guitar and everything that you have all suggested has been extremely helpful and I don't mean to undervalue your help by saying these things.

Maybe I'm just looking far too ahead here.
Anyone have any thoughts?

 

[GuitarStv]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

So, I have been thinking about some things and was wondering what all your opinions on the matter would be.

As I'm waiting for some pots that I ordered to arrive I'm starting to think that it might not be worth it to go down this rabbit hole of modding my guitar heavily. Of course there are many different approaches and none of them are right or wrong but people who I would say get almost exactly at the tone that I want, go through almost none of this. Bjorn riis from gilmourish.com has gone on to say he almost always keeps his tone knobs at 10 and volume at 10, he's never wired a capacitor or resistor in, he just changes his pickups.

So really I'm wondering here if I'm just going against the natural sound of the instrument and not really fixing an issue. In that case, it's likely I might never find a concrete answer.

I do not have an unlimited budget or amount of free time, in fact I have a rare amount of free time now that I was hoping to use to do a bunch of recordings.

I am still planning on making changes to this guitar and everything that you have all suggested has been extremely helpful and I don't mean to undervalue your help by saying these things.

Maybe I'm just looking far too ahead here.
Anyone have any thoughts?

A crap guitar with a great player will blow away a great guitar with a crap player 100% of the time.

 

[ZolloKaptain]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

So quick update:

I went through my first round of mods today. Kept it very simple for now, just rewired the ssl5 so that the black is hot and the white is ground. I tried lowering the pickups almost all the way into the pickguard, as far as they would go, in combination with a 30 ft cable. I still heard the issue, albeit it was slightly less apparent. After that, by running another long pedal through a true bypass pedal I effectively tested my rig with a 50 ft cable. Surprisingly, the bridge pickup was "almost" freed from the issue unfortunately it sounded pretty thin and lifeless, even when I tried fanangaling a bunch with my amp. With that same setup though, my neck pickup still sounded pretty ice-picky.

While I had my guitar plugged in I also tried strumming the tremolo springs to see if they were resonating and sending vibrations to the pickups, but it did not appear as though that was the case.

I also wanted to clarify a little about the ice-picky sound I'm hearing. Although it's probably not this, it kind of sounds like really high overtones. At times it can completely overtake the note and leave you with this ringing in your ears. Even though my bridge PUP was slightly cooperating today, fuzz was still a no-go in higher registers.

In terms of replacing the trem springs, are there any particular springs that might help or is it simply a toss up?

 

[ZolloKaptain]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

I have run the SSL 5 a few times in the bridge on Strats both with SSL 1's and with AP II's and found the SSL 5 to be quite bright, abrupt in the attack and harsh compared to the humbuckers I normally use in the bridge on my guitars. I finally went to a Duncan Texas hot bridge in my last Strat and saw a huge difference in the way the pickup felt and sounded. A noticeable difference in feel with a much softer less abrupt attack and a fatter smoother tone. If you do this remember the Texas Hot is north leading so if you are using a RW/RP middle for a humbucking pos 2 and 4 it will need to go to the neck and the standard wind to the center.

In my strat I would also describe the attack as very abrupt and harsh especially if you want to dig in a little. I want to try CS69s in my guitar because they are less output, and frankly I think almost anything would sound better than the stock pickups.

What kind of Strats have you tested the SSL5 in before?

 

[ZolloKaptain]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

A crap guitar with a great player will blow away a great guitar with a crap player 100% of the time.

Theoretically I agree with you in all senses, but, considering that my application is mainly recording, a "crap" tone essentially translates as a "crap" performance.

 

[Clint 55]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

A crap guitar with a great player will blow away a great guitar with a crap player 100% of the time.

False dichotomy. An average player can improve their music by improving their equipment.

 

[freefrog]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

So quick update:

I went through my first round of mods today. Kept it very simple for now, just rewired the ssl5 so that the black is hot and the white is ground. I tried lowering the pickups almost all the way into the pickguard, as far as they would go, in combination with a 30 ft cable. I still heard the issue, albeit it was slightly less apparent. After that, by running another long pedal through a true bypass pedal I effectively tested my rig with a 50 ft cable. Surprisingly, the bridge pickup was "almost" freed from the issue unfortunately it sounded pretty thin and lifeless, even when I tried fanangaling a bunch with my amp. With that same setup though, my neck pickup still sounded pretty ice-picky.

Thx for the update.

FWIW, higher capacitance might sound "dull" because it cuts sparkle frequencies but it shouldn't make a Strat "thin" sounding. If it was the case, thin sounds would have been produced by all those who used long and/or coily cables back in the days : Hendrix or SRV come here to my mind, among others (and I have already mounted several times in Strats a 2.2nF cap, equivalent to 45ft of added cable: far to make the tone "thin", it fattened the mids).
So, something in your chain might have caused some bad bleeding of the signal or has acted like a series resistor.

While I had my guitar plugged in I also tried strumming the tremolo springs to see if they were resonating and sending vibrations to the pickups, but it did not appear as though that was the case.
[...]
In terms of replacing the trem springs, are there any particular springs that might help or is it simply a toss up?

Some Strat users like these: http://www.rawvintage.com/eng/item_springs.php

But before to order, personally, I'd go to my guitar shop and I'd swap a few trem springs coming from their parts bin, while experimenting with 3, 4 or 5 springs at different angles and tensions.

I'm not sure that springs cause your problem, though, if we consider the last bit of your post:

I also wanted to clarify a little about the ice-picky sound I'm hearing. Although it's probably not this, it kind of sounds like really high overtones. At times it can completely overtake the note and leave you with this ringing in your ears. Even though my bridge PUP was slightly cooperating today, fuzz was still a no-go in higher registers.

I start to wonder if your high strings are not buzzing on the last upper frets because of the action setting and/or because of a poor fretting job...

A recorded sample might be useful here (with a list of the cables/FX/ amp(s)/loudspeaker(s) used), because in my blind attempt of online help, I risk to keep talking way too much without being helpful. )

 

[Ascension]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

In my strat I would also describe the attack as very abrupt and harsh especially if you want to dig in a little. I want to try CS69s in my guitar because they are less output, and frankly I think almost anything would sound better than the stock pickups.

What kind of Strats have you tested the SSL5 in before?

My 94 Washburn USA Silverado came stock with SSL-5's and I have had several highly modded Mex Strats over the years that I have rolled SSL-5's in the bridge on. That Silverado I have kicked myself for selling many times as think Suhr and Anderson quality dead mint guitar with a one piece real swamp ash body and one piece quarter sawn maple neck/ fingerboard. Not only was it stunning to look at but was a real tone machine. Doing what I do can't really use real single coils so like an idiot sold it.

 

[Gtrjunior]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

I didn’t read through this whole thread so this may have been suggested already.

I would verify that you have 250K pots installed.
Did you buy this used? Maybe the previous owner had swapped pots and put 500K in?

 

[Mincer]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

First, is it now in phase with the middle?

Also, is it possible to record a clip going through all the pickups in the guitar?

 

[ZolloKaptain]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

Thx for the update.

FWIW, higher capacitance might sound "dull" because it cuts sparkle frequencies but it shouldn't make a Strat "thin" sounding. If it was the case, thin sounds would have been produced by all those who used long and/or coily cables back in the days : Hendrix or SRV come here to my mind, among others (and I have already mounted several times in Strats a 2.2nF cap, equivalent to 45ft of added cable: far to make the tone "thin", it fattened the mids).
So, something in your chain might have caused some bad bleeding of the signal or has acted like a series resistor.



Some Strat users like these: http://www.rawvintage.com/eng/item_springs.php

But before to order, personally, I'd go to my guitar shop and I'd swap a few trem springs coming from their parts bin, while experimenting with 3, 4 or 5 springs at different angles and tensions.

I'm not sure that springs cause your problem, though, if we consider the last bit of your post:



I start to wonder if your high strings are not buzzing on the last upper frets because of the action setting and/or because of a poor fretting job...

A recorded sample might be useful here (with a list of the cables/FX/ amp(s)/loudspeaker(s) used), because in my blind attempt of online help, I risk to keep talking way too much without being helpful. )

I recently had fretwork done on my guitar because I suspected that might be the culprit. I would post a recorded clip but for whatever reason this site always tells me that it failed to upload. I think I might have to create a private YouTube video and just provide the link I'd I want to do that. Anyways I'll be sure to find a way to get a recording on here.

 

[ZolloKaptain]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

I didn’t read through this whole thread so this may have been suggested already.

I would verify that you have 250K pots installed.
Did you buy this used? Maybe the previous owner had swapped pots and put 500K in?

Yup, the volume pot is about 250k.

I bought the guitar brand new.

I'm working on a way to upload a recorded clip as it keeps failing for some reason, which is the main reason why I haven't posted a recording up to this point.

 

[ZolloKaptain]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

My 94 Washburn USA Silverado came stock with SSL-5's and I have had several highly modded Mex Strats over the years that I have rolled SSL-5's in the bridge on. That Silverado I have kicked myself for selling many times as think Suhr and Anderson quality dead mint guitar with a one piece real swamp ash body and one piece quarter sawn maple neck/ fingerboard. Not only was it stunning to look at but was a real tone machine. Doing what I do can't really use real single coils so like an idiot sold it.

It's interesting because in my never ending search for a solution to this problem, I have been scouring many different forum posts of similar circumstances, and a pretty common variable seems to be a Mexican Strat. I'm not sure what it might be that makes Mex Strats seem to push the pickups more but hopefully that's something that's not impossible to figure out.

Shame about that Silverado, sounded like a killer guitar.

 

[ZolloKaptain]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

First, is it now in phase with the middle?

Also, is it possible to record a clip going through all the pickups in the guitar?

Yes, per Seymour Duncan's wiring suggestion on the other forum, the pup is currently in phase.

I will provide a recorded clip as soon as I find a reliable way to do so on this forum.

 

[Mincer]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

You can use Soundcloud, or even YouTube.

 

[jeremy]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

compared to a cs69 in the same position the ssl5 should be louder, thicker in the mids and have a less harsh top end. same would be true comparing the ssl5 to a ssl1 or some other vintage type strat pup. 3khz isnt overly high but anything in that range that has a big peak can sound harsh.

you say that the whole guitar has some of this high end issue. if its still the whole guitar then id look at swapping the pots to a lower value to lower the resonant peak, if its just the bridge pup, then id add a tone control to it and see what you think.

glad its in phase with the middle pup now, that a start.

 

[ZolloKaptain]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

Alright, so I did some quick recording. The first version is one where I demoed the pickups at Fender suggested heights, so, typically what you would see them at, without having an issue. The second version I recorded was with the pickups sunk done as far as they can go. The recordings were done with the Treble on my amp set about 2, the Tone at about 3.5, Mid at 4 and Bass at about 4. The licks I recorded were really just something random. I changed it a little bit in because I was noticing I was a getting a little lucky at times with the issue not reproducing. I also recorded this with just a 15ft GLS Audio instrument cable plugged directly into my amp which is a Laney Cub head and cab.

I started the recordings with the bridge pup and then slowly made my way to the neck pup. I recommend listening at generally louder volumes because of the nature of higher sounds. Also, if you want a quick guide on where you can hear it most prominently, you could check out the neck pup on the lower pickup heights, which is the last recording in the second version.

It's also strange how the recordings here make me sound almost as if I was really digging in hard when playing, but I was really only playing with moderate force and, at times, pretty softly.

No clipping occurred in these recordings whatsoever.

Anyways here are the links, (let me know if they work)

First Version:
https://soundcloud.com/zollokaptain/treble-issuestandard-pickup-height/s-JsWjm

https://soundcloud.com/zollokaptain/treble-issuelowest-pickup-height/s-sOGAV

 

[ZolloKaptain]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

compared to a cs69 in the same position the ssl5 should be louder, thicker in the mids and have a less harsh top end. same would be true comparing the ssl5 to a ssl1 or some other vintage type strat pup. 3khz isnt overly high but anything in that range that has a big peak can sound harsh.

you say that the whole guitar has some of this high end issue. if its still the whole guitar then id look at swapping the pots to a lower value to lower the resonant peak, if its just the bridge pup, then id add a tone control to it and see what you think.

glad its in phase with the middle pup now, that a start.

All my pickups experience this issue. You recommend swapping the pots to something lower than 250k?