SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

[ZolloKaptain]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

Well unfortunately, I just had a bad experience with a tech.

I went to a local shop today because, for the most part, I like to support local business. They had a guy there who looked a little older, but seemed to know his stuff from the conversation we struck up, but that all changed when I asked him if he could diagnose my issue, directing him specifically to the possibility of sympathetic vibrations with the bridge.

What he did first was plug the guitar into a very small amp there and kept the volume relatively low. As I was explaining this interesting issue we have been discussing here on this forum, he played the guitar softly with his fingers, no pick. So, although I could hear the problem, since I'm used to it, I did notice that the issue was relatively quiet because he was playing with his fingers and at a pretty low volume. However, I had with me a friend, who confirmed that I was not crazy as he too could hear the problem albeit quieter than usual.

I attempted to tell him that it might be easier to hear if he used a pick and maybe played a little louder, I wanted to remain respectful because I didn't want to tell him how to conduct his business, but at the same time I was trying my hardest to recreate the issue for him. He simply dismissed the suggestion, saying it sounded completely fine to him. He then went on a little rant about how all stratocasters sound shrill and that I can't really do anything about that, other than wiring a tone pot. To that I told him how I have to turn the tone knob to about 5 or 6 before that issue is completely gone on that pickups that have tone control, a point where the sound is just pretty muddy. He assured me that it was supposed to be that way.

When I tried to provide him with some more information, he was just simply dismissive and told me there wasn't any problem at all.

All of this happened in about the span of two minutes. In two minutes he decided that my guitar was perfectly functioning and that I must have been so ignorant of the history of stratocasters that I came into the shop not knowing that what I thought was a problem was actually just a given.

I don't think I'm going there again. Next stop will be Guitar Center, mainly because I know a tech there who is pretty understanding and is willing to actually work with you, not dismiss you within two minutes. Unfortunately, I will have to wait until Thursday.

 

[Gtrjunior]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

Well that sucks. Sorry you had that experience.

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

Well unfortunately, I just had a bad experience with a tech.

I went to a local shop today because, for the most part, I like to support local business. They had a guy there who looked a little older, but seemed to know his stuff from the conversation we struck up, but that all changed when I asked him if he could diagnose my issue, directing him specifically to the possibility of sympathetic vibrations with the bridge.

What he did first was plug the guitar into a very small amp there and kept the volume relatively low. As I was explaining this interesting issue we have been discussing here on this forum, he played the guitar softly with his fingers, no pick. So, although I could hear the problem, since I'm used to it, I did notice that the issue was relatively quiet because he was playing with his fingers and at a pretty low volume. However, I had with me a friend, who confirmed that I was not crazy as he too could hear the problem albeit quieter than usual.

I attempted to tell him that it might be easier to hear if he used a pick and maybe played a little louder, I wanted to remain respectful because I didn't want to tell him how to conduct his business, but at the same time I was trying my hardest to recreate the issue for him. He simply dismissed the suggestion, saying it sounded completely fine to him. He then went on a little rant about how all stratocasters sound shrill and that I can't really do anything about that, other than wiring a tone pot. To that I told him how I have to turn the tone knob to about 5 or 6 before that issue is completely gone on that pickups that have tone control, a point where the sound is just pretty muddy. He assured me that it was supposed to be that way.

When I tried to provide him with some more information, he was just simply dismissive and told me there wasn't any problem at all.

All of this happened in about the span of two minutes. In two minutes he decided that my guitar was perfectly functioning and that I must have been so ignorant of the history of stratocasters that I came into the shop not knowing that what I thought was a problem was actually just a given.

I don't think I'm going there again. Next stop will be Guitar Center, mainly because I know a tech there who is pretty understanding and is willing to actually work with you, not dismiss you within two minutes. Unfortunately, I will have to wait until Thursday.

Yeah, it is insulting to be treated that way, i totally understand you. But on the bright side, you got to find out how poor of a tech he is and how poor his customer service skills are, without having to leave the guitar with him for 5 days just for him to contact you and say he doesn't think there is a problem. He saved you some time. Consider yourself lucky.

The effort you invest now to find a good and reliable guitar tech, will pay off for you in the future because next time you will already know who can do good work for you.

Keep us updated!

 

[Mincer]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

That is frustrating, and even sadder that it points you to Guitar Center. Sure, some techs there may know their stuff, but keep in mind there are a lot of 'I took my guitar to Guitar Center' stories on this forum.

 

[ZolloKaptain]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

Update:

I'm really conflicted now after I went to another local repair shop. This time, the experience was nice, and the tech there was very friendly and allowed me to demonstrate the issue plenty, to the point where I heard the issue ringing loud and clear. Unfortunately, he didn't really seem to notice it very much, he was an older gentleman so I guess it might still be possible that he couldn't hear all those high overtones. However, after he couldn't hear the issue, he brought out another guitar, incidentally a guitar loaded with Duncans, and played on the high register for me and I could hear the issue just as bad there. The guitar he demonstrated on was not a Fender, but had two Duncan humbucking pickups. Since I was so stupefied that I heard this issue just as bad in another guitar, I forgot to ask about the brand of the guitar but hopefully that doesn't make much difference.

I know Freefrog came up with a graph that demonstrated these harmonic peaks, so I wonder if this is present in all guitars, to some degree. He said that the guitar was set up well, and the guitar looked in great condition so I have no reason to suspect the guitar really had any issues. Of course I realize that with strings ringing, there are always going to be many resulting overtones, but in the high register it's almost unbearable for me and the few people I've shared this issue with. What then can I do about this?

He did mention that the guitar wasn't quite set-up right. He believed that the bridge saddles were generally ok, but needed some adjustment in terms of the action and angle, as it didn't quite conform to the shape of the neck. Since, I imagine the other guitar I head the issue on was set-up by him, I can't imagine doing this set-up would relinquish the issue. He seemed to find that there wasn't any issue with the strings buzzing against something. He did however find that bends "choke up" a little, which he believed his set-up would fix.

Anyone have any thoughts?

 

[Jacew]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

Update:

I'm really conflicted now after I went to another local repair shop. This time, the experience was nice, and the tech there was very friendly and allowed me to demonstrate the issue plenty, to the point where I heard the issue ringing loud and clear. Unfortunately, he didn't really seem to notice it very much, he was an older gentleman so I guess it might still be possible that he couldn't hear all those high overtones. However, after he couldn't hear the issue, he brought out another guitar, incidentally a guitar loaded with Duncans, and played on the high register for me and I could hear the issue just as bad there. The guitar he demonstrated on was not a Fender, but had two Duncan humbucking pickups. Since I was so stupefied that I heard this issue just as bad in another guitar, I forgot to ask about the brand of the guitar but hopefully that doesn't make much difference.

I know Freefrog came up with a graph that demonstrated these harmonic peaks, so I wonder if this is present in all guitars, to some degree. He said that the guitar was set up well, and the guitar looked in great condition so I have no reason to suspect the guitar really had any issues. Of course I realize that with strings ringing, there are always going to be many resulting overtones, but in the high register it's almost unbearable for me and the few people I've shared this issue with. What then can I do about this?

He did mention that the guitar wasn't quite set-up right. He believed that the bridge saddles were generally ok, but needed some adjustment in terms of the action and angle, as it didn't quite conform to the shape of the neck. Since, I imagine the other guitar I head the issue on was set-up by him, I can't imagine doing this set-up would relinquish the issue. He seemed to find that there wasn't any issue with the strings buzzing against something. He did however find that bends "choke up" a little, which he believed his set-up would fix.

Anyone have any thoughts?

I've had same experience with certain overtones that simply sound awful to me. Which is one reason I've been working on it.

Trem spring I mentioned earlier is one thing. Easy trick to reduce, or even get away of it is to dial your guitar overly dark, and add treble boost in front of amp, which often smoothens out high end.

Also, reducing gain clears high overtones too.

The cap/resistor setups freefrog explained are one way to reduce it.

Guitar speakers are major part to subdue or increase either wrong or just right overtones:
Eminence Governor, both WGS speakers I've tried (Vet30, ET65), V30 as well as even Greenback all have had noticeable, and annoying harshness and sizzle in high register that really bugged me. G12H30, despite being bright seem to lack it, there's just flat, singing high end. V12 was another that didn't have it, but it was really too dark in cab I had it in.

 

[AlexR]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

So 2 different guitars with maybe 2 scale lengths and differing style pickups show the same issue.......and I'm assuming that the amp that it was tested on to determine this is different to the amp at home - removing that aspect from the equation too.

Its perhaps an issue with your ear in particular then??
Of course mechanical issues like slight buzz could be an issue - even on the shop guitar which would have a 'good' setup......especially as a good setup for one person is in no way a guarantee of a good setup for another.

If you can do more testing, maybe it can be confirmed that this is not a guitar/pickup issue specifically.

In that case maybe the offending tone could be removed with a notch filter on the amp.....something set up such that you don't lose a bunch of other important frequencies in the process.

 

[Jacew]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

Forgot that this was about SSL-5... That pickup does really have prominent high mid sparkle despite output. I have it in middle position, and usually always either use muff type fuzz or play with non-treble bleed volume and careful touch when using it on it's own.

You could try SSL-7 in the bridge...

 

[jeremy]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

the initial complaint was about the ssl5 but now a different guitar with buckers is displaying the same quality so i dont think we can blame the ssl5. compared to the ssl1 for example, the ssl5 doesnt have much sparkle.

as far as the setup question, yes you can adjust the guitar so bends dont choke out. if you arent running into that issue, then i wouldnt bother.

 

[ZolloKaptain]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

Yes, the ssl-5 was determined to not be the source of the issue a little bit ago as all pickups on my guitar were experiencing the issue. I would change the title to more aptly describe the issue but I'm not sure how to do so.

 

[ZolloKaptain]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

Forgot that this was about SSL-5... That pickup does really have prominent high mid sparkle despite output. I have it in middle position, and usually always either use muff type fuzz or play with non-treble bleed volume and careful touch when using it on it's own.

You could try SSL-7 in the bridge...

I use a big muff ram's head with my ssl-5, but this overtone issue makes it almost unusable in the mid to higher registers. I only way I have found to kind to eliminate them is if I put on really heavy compression from my dynacomp and lower the output. Unfortunately, the resulting sound is pretty bad.

I would like to keep my current setup, so I'm not sure I'll install an ssl-7. Also since each pickup experiences this issue, if I were to replace one pickup I would have to replace all of them.

 

[ZolloKaptain]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

So 2 different guitars with maybe 2 scale lengths and differing style pickups show the same issue.......and I'm assuming that the amp that it was tested on to determine this is different to the amp at home - removing that aspect from the equation too.

Its perhaps an issue with your ear in particular then??
Of course mechanical issues like slight buzz could be an issue - even on the shop guitar which would have a 'good' setup......especially as a good setup for one person is in no way a guarantee of a good setup for another.

If you can do more testing, maybe it can be confirmed that this is not a guitar/pickup issue specifically.

In that case maybe the offending tone could be removed with a notch filter on the amp.....something set up such that you don't lose a bunch of other important frequencies in the process.

If you go the third page of the forum, freefrog has a great post showing a graph of the harmonic peaks. They start around 3khz and go above 5khz. Although it's probably possible to eliminate some of them with a notch filter, it's only really effective if you use a huge cut around 3khz to completely cut out that first harmonic. Unfortunately, that also cuts a lot of good "tone" out.

What further testing are you suggesting?
We've tried quite a few things here already, so I'm interested if you some new ideas.

If this truly is an "issue", then I believe we have determined that this mechanical in nature and not actually directly related to the pickups.

Also, I know quite a few people who hear these ringing overtones as much as I do, so I'm not quite convinced that all of us have a hearing problem.

 

[ZolloKaptain]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

I've had same experience with certain overtones that simply sound awful to me. Which is one reason I've been working on it.

Trem spring I mentioned earlier is one thing. Easy trick to reduce, or even get away of it is to dial your guitar overly dark, and add treble boost in front of amp, which often smoothens out high end.

Also, reducing gain clears high overtones too.

The cap/resistor setups freefrog explained are one way to reduce it.

Guitar speakers are major part to subdue or increase either wrong or just right overtones:
Eminence Governor, both WGS speakers I've tried (Vet30, ET65), V30 as well as even Greenback all have had noticeable, and annoying harshness and sizzle in high register that really bugged me. G12H30, despite being bright seem to lack it, there's just flat, singing high end. V12 was another that didn't have it, but it was really too dark in cab I had it in.

I feel after silencing/dampening the trem springs, that they won't have much impact on the tone. Of course they can always turn the backplate into a reverb chamber, but I haven't heard that trem springs can affect the tone more than that.

I'm not entirely sure if this the same as what you're describing, but I've tried lowering my amp tone to about 0 and lowering the treble to almost 0 and it doesn't completely get rid of the problem. So, once I try to eq some treble back it tends to give back more bite to the ringing harmonics.

You're right that reducing gain tends to subdue these frequencies somewhat, however problems with distorted sounds will still exist.

In my amp I have Laney HH Drivers in my 2x12 laney cab, they're the stock speakers, but I have been very hesitant to switch them because speakers are pretty expensive.
I have heard the g12s work good with this amp, but they're about $100 a speaker.

 

[AlexR]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

If you go the third page of the forum, freefrog has a great post showing a graph of the harmonic peaks. They start around 3khz and go above 5khz. Although it's probably possible to eliminate some of them with a notch filter, it's only really effective if you use a huge cut around 3khz to completely cut out that first harmonic. Unfortunately, that also cuts a lot of good "tone" out.

Have you actually tested the frequencies you don't like......or are you merely looking at a graph and assuming your issues are throughout the entire first harmonic???
I mean we've had a lot of people complain about 1 frequency in their tone only to find out it wasn't that at all, and was another all together.

Most annoying frequencies for the majority of listeners are in a very narrow band....according to both theory and demonstration in the mixing part of the Sound Production course I did. The use of a notch filter was the solution to horrible clashes and peaks there. But you had to test by finding the peak of horrible, then you could cut that bit out.
And of course a narrow filter makes the issue go away without any other impact.
Your posts makes me feel like you have only tried the 'cavemans club' of eq-ing, which are tone knobs on guitar and amp. By comparison to a notch filter, its like using a fencepost for a syringe.

Without going through the whole thread to find this out, is this something that has suddenly come on or have you always had such a sensitivity to similar frequencies?? Do you get it with live or prerecorded music in venues as well??

 

[ZolloKaptain]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

Have you actually tested the frequencies you don't like......or are you merely looking at a graph and assuming your issues are throughout the entire first harmonic???
I mean we've had a lot of people complain about 1 frequency in their tone only to find out it wasn't that at all, and was another all together.

Most annoying frequencies for the majority of listeners are in a very narrow band....according to both theory and demonstration in the mixing part of the Sound Production course I did. The use of a notch filter was the solution to horrible clashes and peaks there. But you had to test by finding the peak of horrible, then you could cut that bit out.
And of course a narrow filter makes the issue go away without any other impact.
Your posts makes me feel like you have only tried the 'cavemans club' of eq-ing, which are tone knobs on guitar and amp. By comparison to a notch filter, its like using a fencepost for a syringe.

Without going through the whole thread to find this out, is this something that has suddenly come on or have you always had such a sensitivity to similar frequencies?? Do you get it with live or prerecorded music in venues as well??

I may not be very experienced with music production, but no I have not just tried to use the "caveman's approach" as you so kindly put it. I used surgical eq in post. Even before freefrog came up with this graph I mentioned that a good deal of the overtone sound occured around the 3khz region, which his graph effectively confirmed. However, I had also noticed that that wasn't the extent of the annoying harmonics in the tone, there were more and freefrogs graph also shows that. The other issue with these harmonics, especially those in a range that you wouldn't use a high cut on, is that you can't necessarily use an extremely small band. In my attempt to eq these frequencies out completely I would have to use a slightly larger band, still relatively thin but not so thin that it wouldn't begin to affect the rest of the tone, and then you realize that you have at least two more harmonic peaks you need to take care of. When cutting these frequencies out you effectively need to cut out more than 30db for each peak which eventually has a noticeable affect on the tone, at least in my experience. Although I am no authority on the matter, I look at surgical eq as a way to "tame" a sound, and unfortunately sometimes these harmonic peaks can be louder than the fundamental note.

Have I always had a sensitivity to these certain frequencies?
No not particularly, especially since I'll listen to a lot of recordings and live music and barely ever hear anything similar even in the same registers. I won't say I've never heard it occur before on other recordings, but it's pretty rare and usually pretty negligible. In my case I can't seem to ignore it.

Also, I felt like having a ringing overtone louder than the fundamental didn't seem quite right, which was one reason I decided to post on this forum.

 

[AlexR]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

So is this when you're playing in a band situation.....and/or playing the guitar by itself. But both cases in a "I'm in the room with the amp" type situation.

Additionally, have you played music in a band for quite a while, and are now starting to find this frequency annoyance situation occurring more and more regularly

Edit _ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperacusis

 

[freefrog]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

He seemed to find that there wasn't any issue with the strings buzzing against something. He did however find that bends "choke up" a little, which he believed his set-up would fix.

Anyone have any thoughts?

Different terminology, same idea than in my feelings and posts. And it CAN generate annoying harmonics, although it depends on own the bend is done.

Regarding the notch filter evoked by AlexR: I agree with his suggestion, since I was already thinking to mention it in my first posts... But iI was finding logical to deal with the issue mentioned above at first. Now, if a set up of the guitar doesn't solve the problem, EQing solutions can of course be considered and used.

FOOTNOTE about compressors: I've not said that Gilmour used it anywhere and anytime. I just know that IME, a compressor is useful with small tube amps: I don't use this effect much with my Vox and Fender combos and I don't use it at all with my Marshall... but I use it a lot with my Custom home designed Class A 5W head and it certainly helps it to sound big while making the notes and harmonics consistent across the fretboard.
YMMV but that's my experience and all I can do here is to share it.

 

[ZolloKaptain]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

So is this when you're playing in a band situation.....and/or playing the guitar by itself. But both cases in a "I'm in the room with the amp" type situation.

Additionally, have you played music in a band for quite a while, and are now starting to find this frequency annoyance situation occurring more and more regularly

Edit _ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperacusis

I am not noticing it more frequently. Usually I play with my amp angled away from me, meaning that high overtones will naturally dissipate from the sound as it travels around the room.
It was when I started to put a mic in front of the amp to record did I notice this.
My first thought was that it had to be my mic, but after I actually went in front of my amp and listened to what it sounded like when I was directly in the line of the sound did I hear it.
Thought it was the amp but then I di'ed it and I started to hear it a bit there too.
Then I started to put my ear up the strings when I played the electric guitar acoustically, and although it is quiet ,I believe I can hear it occuring from the guitar itself. Also, the guitar exhibits these harmonic characteristics when plugged into whatever amp. So logically the issue points to the guitar.

Like I said before I can listen to many recordings and live situations and not hear this, but I do hear this in my setup.

Sure, maybe when everything's said and done maybe I can come up with the perfect eq that generally gets rid of the offending frequencies without too much affect on the tone, but I'm wondering why these frequencies are even occuring to begin with.

I don't remember watching guitar mixing videos and hearing that you have to use a bunch of notch filters because guitars always sound super harsh and shrill.

I'm wondering if there's anyway to deal with these sounds mechanically rather than having to deal with them in post.

Once again I have friends who hear this phenemenon just as I do, and these are not only my bandmates.

Why is it that you are so sure I have a hearing problem?

 

[ZolloKaptain]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

Different terminology, same idea than in my feelings and posts. And it CAN generate annoying harmonics, although it depends on own the bend is done.

Regarding the notch filter evoked by AlexR: I agree with his suggestion, since I was already thinking to mention it in my first posts... But iI was finding logical to deal with the issue mentioned above at first. Now, if a set up of the guitar doesn't solve the problem, EQing solutions can of course be considered and used.

FOOTNOTE about compressors: I've not said that Gilmour used it anywhere and anytime. I just know that IME, a compressor is useful with small tube amps: I don't use this effect much with my Vox and Fender combos and I don't use it at all with my Marshall... but I use it a lot with my Custom home designed Class A 5W head and it certainly helps it to sound big while making the notes and harmonics consistent across the fretboard.
YMMV but that's my experience and all I can do here is to share it.

I mean I believe you but the sound doesn't only occur on bends, I can hear the "choke out" he's referring to in the tone, it's a kind of loss of sustain. Maybe it could be contributing to the problem, but I'm not sure how it would affect solid notes.

Regarding compressors, I'm not sure if it's because I have a generally mediocre compressor, but if I try to match the output so that the pedal isn't taking out a considerable amount of volume from the tone the sound does not go away in the slightest. At times it maybe even exacerbates it. However if I do take some volume out the issue does become a little more tame, although the sound starts to sound a little dull.

I know it probably doesn't make that much difference but my head is 15w, so not necessarily small but also not large.

 

[Gtrjunior]

Re: SSL-5 Bridge PUP Sounds Bright And Harsh

Hang on....you probably have already tried but have you lowered the pickup height?

Again, I haven’t read through this whole thread but what I have read, I didn’t see any mention of pickup height.