Strat spring/trem question

[cato]

Hello everybody. I'm a new member but I've been sponging off you guys for many years
I have a '98 yjm with a vintage tremolo, of course, and I went to two straight springs on the outside; and the bends feel a little easier. But since I didn't screw down the claw and left everything the same, when I tuned up i got a very high float, as would be expected.

now, with the claw screwed down a lot and the springs so to speak pre-tensioned, when I tune I'll have a low float; but with the claw backed out and the springs not pretensioned, when I tune up I'll get a high float; but in either case the springs will ultimately be at the same tension at a given tuning and so bendability should be the same in either case, correct? Same with the truss rod: regardless claw in or out or high float or low float, the tension on the neck has to be the same at a given tuning.

Well I'm asking because I did screw down the claw and lower the float and I'd swear it feels like the bending is a little harder, but my brain is telling me that's not possible. (FYI I adjusted the saddles so string height is the same in either case and so not a factor)

Can you guys settle this for me? Sorry, not exactly 'a soup question' for my first post 0

 

[Clint 55]

Re: Strat spring/trem question

Yes I've noticed that, a slightly different feel between the bridge floating and locked down. I don't think there's anything weird about that.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Strat spring/trem question

With a floater you are equalising out spring tension, but the ease of bending of course you are moving the trem......and this depends on where the spring is in its travel.......its not a linear thing.

 

[cato]

Re: Strat spring/trem question

Thanks guys

 

[dotsdad]

Re: Strat spring/trem question

When the tremolo is set up to float, the forces that the strings and the springs put on the bridge are equal but in opposite directions. The strings want to pull the bridge in one direction, and the springs want to pull it in the other. Because they put the same amount of force on the bridge, the bridge stays put.

When you remove a spring, that tension is no longer even. The strings (when tuned to pitch) have more pull in one direction than the springs have in the other direction. That is why your bridge raised up high when you pulled a spring. It is also why the bridge lowered back down as you started tightening the trem claw (which then caused the springs to put more tension on the bridge again.)

When a tremolo is "decked", the springs put more pressure on the bridge than the strings do. As you continue to apply more pressure on the spring side, the bridge will keep tipping back until it hits the body and can't go back any more.

When you bend a string with your fingers, you are putting additional tension on the string side of the bridge. If the bridge is set to float (even tension on the bridge from strings and springs); the springs do not entirely counterbalance that extra tension you add on the string side, so the bridge tips towards the strings. If the bridge is decked (the springs have more tension than the strings); the extra pressure on the string doesn't affect the bridge until your bend puts enough tension on the string side to offset the excess tension on the spring side. That's why bending feels different when your bridge is floating and when it is decked.

P.S. Eric Clapton took it one step further by adding a piece of wood to the mix. In addition to using all 5 springs, the block of wood makes sure the bridge stays put:

 

[Mincer]

Re: Strat spring/trem question

I always wondered why EC just didn't use hardtails. It seems like a lot of effort.

Floating Strat trems have the physics of balance going on. Do anything to upset that balance, and things get weird. In any case, this seems normal, and something you will get used to over time.

 

[cato]

Re: Strat spring/trem question

Thanks dotsdad for that detailed explanation! And thank you mincer !
Interestingly, I just lowered the float but didn't deck it, and the bends still felt like they took more effort compared to the high float. Decked vs. floating, dotsdat explained, would allow for a difference in how bending feels. But in this case it was the difference between a very high float and a lower, more traditional type float. But both floating nonetheless. And the higher float felt more spongey.
This is a long shot but the only difference between the two that I see is the angle at which the string breaks over the saddle. Maybe it's because the break over the saddles in the high float is so shallow that the bending felt more spongy; and with the lower float the break over the saddles is sharper and thus requires more effort to get the bridge to start pulling up with the bend? As in my original post, regarding a high vs. low float and the difference in the claw location and spring starting location each entails, I don't think the location of the claw/springs should make a difference in how a high float bend feels compared to a low float bend because in both cases ultimately, as dotsdad explained, the tension between the string and the springs is equalized so high or low there shouldn't be a difference in the feel of the bend. But I'd swear there is.
Do you guys think maybe it's the break over the saddles? That's the only variable I can think of.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Strat spring/trem question

The other variable is where the string is sitting in its travel. Spring travel is not linear as I mentioned in my other post. Plus the angle of the bridge and angles of the forces is different. Trying to pull something up from being flat is much harder than pulling it up already on an angle.

 

[JB_From_Hell]

Re: Strat spring/trem question

As a side note, if you're into floating Strat bridges, google "Carl Verheyen method."

 

[dotsdad]

Re: Strat spring/trem question

Part of it could also be that you higher float gives a slightly higher action than a low float. It might only be 1/32 inch but it will still change the way your fingers feel the strings and how easy it is to get enough leverage to bend them.

 

[cato]

Re: Strat spring/trem question

The other variable is where the string is sitting in its travel. Spring travel is not linear as I mentioned in my other post. Plus the angle of the bridge and angles of the forces is different. Trying to pull something up from being flat is much harder than pulling it up already on an angle.

Got it. Makes sense. BTW, I'm pretty sure what you mean by the non linearity of spring travel but can you ecplain that just in case?

 

[cato]

Re: Strat spring/trem question

As a side note, if you're into floating Strat bridges, google "Carl Verheyen method."

Yeah, thanks. I watched that long ago when first researching different float procedures. Really interesting. Thanks.

 

[cato]

Strat spring/trem question

Part of it could also be that you higher float gives a slightly higher action than a low float. It might only be 1/32 inch but it will still change the way your fingers feel the strings and how easy it is to get enough leverage to bend them.

Yeah I thought that cause the float was so high after removing a spring that I though the string height would feel horrible. But as soon as I played it I was struck how it didn't feel like the height increased. But as you said, maybe not enough that I felt it with 'regular' playing, but enough that it imparted a different feel to bending - maybe that whole "i like to get my fingers under the strings" thing people talk about in discussions about high action as it facilitates bendability. I might also not have noticed the change in the action because I've always set up my strats with high action so it would probably take a lot for me to notice a difference with regular playing versus with bending.
Thanks!

 

[AlexR]

Re: Strat spring/trem question

Spring in almost all cases take a variable amount of effort to move/stretch them a given distance.

 

[cato]

Re: Strat spring/trem question

Got it [emoji109]

 

[Archer250]

Re: Strat spring/trem question

Yeah, thanks. I watched that long ago when first researching different float procedures. Really interesting. Thanks.

Here's the thing. You don't *have* to angle the claw. Just set the trem so that pullups give you the specified pitch and you're good to go. I have two guitars set up this way and they NEVER go out of tune after a pull or a dive, or any kind of vibrato.

 

[cato]

Re: Strat spring/trem question

Here's the thing. You don't *have* to angle the claw. Just set the trem so that pullups give you the specified pitch and you're good to go. I have two guitars set up this way and they NEVER go out of tune after a pull or a dive, or any kind of vibrato.

Yeah. I never tried that angled claw but have a couple of my strats set up with a c on the g string when pulled up max. methodically setup. Still don't get the stability some appreciate. But I haven't tailored the nut slots or lubed them orcthe trees or other things that could help. Real close though.

 

[SJ318]

Re: Strat spring/trem question

Hi
Jeff Beck uses his string gauge to facilitate easier bends and the best stability. This is what he did, and I did it too, to
all 3 Strats I own.
Gauge, hi to low: 9, 12 or 13,17, 28, 38, 52. I got this from several sources. The relatively light top strings are what he bends the most with his fingers. The very heavy 38, 52 are very tight so when he pulls up or goes down with the vibrato arm, the
tension of the big strings is very tight and brings the strings back in tune Fast, and quickly re establishes the resting, or in tune resting place. He has it set like Carl, so an up pull goes from open G to A# (step and a half), but as God or Karma is my witness that "angled claw" is BS, it works, just as well as straight. It is a matter of physics. Either way is equally good.
I use 9, 11, 16, 24, 38, 50. The heavy low strings is what makes Jeff Beck stay in tune so well. I don't have the strength to
use 12 or 13, 17, 28, so I must wimp out there.
Please try this, it's cheap, and instantly testable. I always say, use staggered locking tuners, so you can do away with string trees. No need for extra touching or grabbing, no matter how slight. And lastly, file the plate holes so the strings come out of the block straight to the saddles. Again - 1 less place to rub and strings don't break so easy, they last a much longer time. I have tried this out against 1 of my Strats that I did not touch yet and it was night and day better.
I have a feeling that folks think I am crazy over this set up, that it might be just a bunch of B.S. I assure everyone, it is not!
Thanks for reading, good luck,
Steve Buffington

 

[Archer250]

Re: Strat spring/trem question

Yeah, I've never used anything other than 10-52s with my strat-type guitars. That may factor a bit.

Also notable is that my guitars are equipped with 2 point Gotoh trems instead of the vintage 6-points.

Sent from my EVA-L19 using Tapatalk

 

[PFDarkside]

Re: Strat spring/trem question

Here's the thing. You don't *have* to angle the claw. Just set the trem so that pullups give you the specified pitch and you're good to go. I have two guitars set up this way and they NEVER go out of tune after a pull or a dive, or any kind of vibrato.

This is correct, the angled claw is a myth, it's the string Gauge and static trem height that determine the pull up pitch. I go from this type setup to barely floating based on my mood.

Yeah. I never tried that angled claw but have a couple of my strats set up with a c on the g string when pulled up max. methodically setup. Still don't get the stability some appreciate. But I haven't tailored the nut slots or lubed them orcthe trees or other things that could help. Real close though.

I highly suggest investigating the lubrication of all friction points, it really helps! Every string change I use graphite on the nut, trees and saddles.

Yeah, I've never used anything other than 10-52s with my strat-type guitars. That may factor a bit.

Also notable is that my guitars are equipped with 2 point Gotoh trems instead of the vintage 6-points.

Sent from my EVA-L19 using Tapatalk

The aforementioned guitar that I go from the minor third pull-up to a slight vibrato is a 2-point, very easy to setup. I keep the 6 screw trems consistent.