Strat vs. Les Paul clean tones.

[david kornblatt]

Re: Strat vs. Les Paul clean tones.

I used to also be under the impression that it's easier to sound good with a Gibson but I heard too many players that convinced me that it's not the case.
Too many rock bands out there holding a Les Paul and making me wish they would have more articulation and "air" in their sound.

let me address this mostly aperson would use more of a severly underwound humbucker and/or a p90 and you get great articulation, different, from any fender but still great guys listen to Thourogoods bad to the bone try to use your paul like you are trying to make it sound like a Strat

 

[crusty philtrum]

Re: Strat vs. Les Paul clean tones.

Some random, but hopefully useful, thoughts from here....

When i was 17 (36 years ago) I had a Strat and a full Marshall stack. I owned the gear that Jimi, Eric, Richie and later-era Kossoff played, and yet ... i sounded like a very loud bag of sh!ite. I traded the Strat for an SG and my immediate thought was .... Wow! I sound professional now. But a little later, i felt i couldn't really get better sounds from the SG, it sounded great from the start, but i couldn't really dig much more out of it.

I owned a bunch of 70's Strats and became so disillusioned with them that i walked away from Strats for twenty years. At that time, i had no idea that i'd been playing Strats from the period that would become known as the worst Strats built by Fender. In recent times, I got back into them, and now find myself sounding good with them ...... partly because thay are not from that dreadful 70's era, and partly because I guess i have developed the kind of touch and thinking that is needed to wrest the good stuff from a Strat .... they don't just give up those classic tones by simply playing them it seems, you have to dig them out.

I like Strats to be S/S/S, and i use baseplates on the bridge pickups. The humble baseplate should be more widely appreciated as a great aid in taming the potential sonic horrors that can make people very averse to Strats and their bridge position sounds. (And no, a baseplate doesn't automatically make your Strat sound like a Tele).

Like Wahwah and others, I have a simple master tone control across all 3 pickups to ensure the loading remains constant no matter which pickup or combination of pickups is selected. It evens things out a lot. (I make the master tone control 'no-load' when it is maxxed for further versatility).

To me, Gibsons encourage smoother and more even techniques to extract their best, whereas Strats encourage all kinds of struggles and arguements, carressing and cajoling and good old-fashioned thrashing to bring out their wide palette of tones.

anyways, these are simply some of my own thoughts, opinions and experiences. No doubt others will have very different ones. I like the fact that the differences exist, keeps life interesting.

 

[J Moose]

Re: Strat vs. Les Paul clean tones.

We are getting into some serious BS here people.

Whats BS?

The average "stock" slab of mahogany with 'buckers has more output then a Fender, and a whole lot more lower-mid push & bottom end. Put those two together and yeah... if its "louder" then it can also be equal to or softer as well.

Granted in stock form a Lester won't hit all the high-jangly places that a Strat will, but if I loaded up an LP with wiring tricks I'd wager that not many people would be able to pass the Pepsi challenge & discern it from the real thing.

Years & years ago... I was maybe 18 or 19, I went into a fairly "pro" studio to record a couple songs with my band and I brought my strat and borrowed a Lester that had push-pulls for each pickup. The engineer wanted & basically forced me to play the Lester, though I preferred my strat I capitulated and played the LP using those pull pots to the fullest! It was at that point that I also swore I'd never be "that guy" behind the desk...

Anyway... its not like I hate strats or anything... there have been a LOT of great songs, licks, players, and tones over the decades that have come out of a Strat. And I really dig my '73 hardtail strat (with Dimarzios no less!) and there are times I take only that guitar and a Tele to a gig... but whatever...

Physics is physics man.

I've broken a lot of laws over the years but I'm still trying to figure out how to crack Issac Newtons groundwork.

Both have their place if your open minded.

 

[theboatcandream]

Re: Strat vs. Les Paul clean tones.

Another thing to point out is the difference between typical alder strats and older style ash ones.

 

[wahwah]

Re: Strat vs. Les Paul clean tones.

The average "stock" slab of mahogany with 'buckers has more output then a Fender, and a whole lot more lower-mid push & bottom end. Put those two together and yeah... if its "louder" then it can also be equal to or softer as well.

Mr Moose, I wasn't talking about the output level, I was talking about the difference between the way single coils and humbuckers respond to picking sensitivity. The point where a Les Paul no longer responds to a harder hit is much sooner than a Strat, meaning that there is a broader dynamic range in terms of pick attack with a standard single coil loaded instrument. This is a big part of the reason why guys like Jeff Beck made the change from LP to Strat, because so much of his style revolves around creating different tones by getting varying degrees of purchase on the string. A humbucker is going to flatline at a much lower point of impact, it just seems to be the nature of the beast.




Cheers...................................... wahwah

 

[Diego]

Re: Strat vs. Les Paul clean tones.

Yup, the attack is much more even compared to the sustained notes in a Les Paul. In a Strat the attack jumps out harder, louder and clearer.

It's not a matter of EQ range, it's a matter of dynamic range. And for full dynamics, single coils are better.

 

[ImmortalSix]

Re: Strat vs. Les Paul clean tones.

Whats BS?

The average "stock" slab of mahogany with 'buckers has more output then a Fender, and a whole lot more lower-mid push & bottom end. Put those two together and yeah... if its "louder" then it can also be equal to or softer as well.

Granted in stock form a Lester won't hit all the high-jangly places that a Strat will, but if I loaded up an LP with wiring tricks I'd wager that not many people would be able to pass the Pepsi challenge & discern it from the real thing.

Years & years ago... I was maybe 18 or 19, I went into a fairly "pro" studio to record a couple songs with my band and I brought my strat and borrowed a Lester that had push-pulls for each pickup. The engineer wanted & basically forced me to play the Lester, though I preferred my strat I capitulated and played the LP using those pull pots to the fullest! It was at that point that I also swore I'd never be "that guy" behind the desk...

Anyway... its not like I hate strats or anything... there have been a LOT of great songs, licks, players, and tones over the decades that have come out of a Strat. And I really dig my '73 hardtail strat (with Dimarzios no less!) and there are times I take only that guitar and a Tele to a gig... but whatever...

Physics is physics man.

I've broken a lot of laws over the years but I'm still trying to figure out how to crack Issac Newtons groundwork.

Both have their place if your open minded.

Mr Moose, I wasn't talking about the output level, I was talking about the difference between the way single coils and humbuckers respond to picking sensitivity. The point where a Les Paul no longer responds to a harder hit is much sooner than a Strat, meaning that there is a broader dynamic range in terms of pick attack with a standard single coil loaded instrument. This is a big part of the reason why guys like Jeff Beck made the change from LP to Strat, because so much of his style revolves around creating different tones by getting varying degrees of purchase on the string. A humbucker is going to flatline at a much lower point of impact, it just seems to be the nature of the beast.




Cheers...................................... wahwah

Yup, the attack is much more even compared to the sustained notes in a Les Paul. In a Strat the attack jumps out harder, louder and clearer.

It's not a matter of EQ range, it's a matter of dynamic range. And for full dynamics, single coils are better.

Yeah, Moose - we weren't discussing output, we were discussing dynamic range.

I won't get into the woods and constructions of the two guitars, but humbuckers compress the signal, which by definition reduces the dynamic range.

(That's why crusty went from sounding crappy on a Strat to sounding pro on an SG)

 

[guitarded]

Re: Strat vs. Les Paul clean tones.

Anyone here try wiring two or more pups on a strat in series? Just wondering, because I have a Burns Brian May Signature model Red Special with three trisonic (single coil) pickups wired in series.... Using any combo of pickup in phase is fatter than any Les Paul I ever heard. Just curious if good beefier tones can be had from a Strat that way.

 

[blueman335]

Re: Strat vs. Les Paul clean tones.

The fact that he gave the Flying V away says something!

Hendrix owned 3 Flying V's and 2 SG Customs. Obviously he liked something about them. He gave away many Strats too, BTW.

 

[guitarded]

Re: Strat vs. Les Paul clean tones.

Hendrix owned 3 Flying V's and 2 SG Customs. Obviously he liked something about them. He gave away many Strats too, BTW.

V's are great blues guitars! For Hendrix they would have been perfect because you can turn them upside down and they are still ergonomically the same except for the knobs and pup selector.

 

[J Moose]

Re: Strat vs. Les Paul clean tones.

Mr Moose, I wasn't talking about the output level, I was talking about the difference between the way single coils and humbuckers respond to picking sensitivity. The point where a Les Paul no longer responds to a harder hit is much sooner than a Strat, meaning that there is a broader dynamic range in terms of pick attack with a standard single coil loaded instrument. This is a big part of the reason why guys like Jeff Beck made the change from LP to Strat, because so much of his style revolves around creating different tones by getting varying degrees of purchase on the string. A humbucker is going to flatline at a much lower point of impact, it just seems to be the nature of the beast.

Again I disagree there.

Humbuckers will flatline sooner if they're high output say, a distortion type pickup but with low-output pickups like Seth Lovers or a '59... some PAF-ish thing, I can wrangle more out of them then single coils... even a Tele.

Personally, I've found then when I pummel a Strat they break up sooner and become glassy, at least with my amps. A strat plugged into a cranked up AC30 with the channels jumped is not a very pleasing sound... at least not to me.

In my experience the single coils are the ones with limited dynamic range... at least in practice. There's also stuff I love to hate about strats... like the way the harmonics disappear with the neck pickup. More often then not the attack of the initial note is usually overwhelming, like a banjo. Good, no scratch that... GREAT strats don't have that 'banjo' problem but I've yet to find one I can afford to own, save for my '73 hardtail mutt.

Personally I'm in awe of the tones that Beck can coax from a Strat, hes very unique in that regard and there's plenty of Hendrix that I think sounds pretty "bad" too from a tonal standpoint where its glassy and shrill.

I'd also think that one of the reasons Jeff Beck went to strat is for the whammy bar... the note bending is a fairly integrated part of his style. That and strats are easier to fix then a Lester if you throw 'em around on stage like he was doing for while...

And wasn't he using stacked pickups for a while? I recall at one point he had the dual Lace Sensors in the bridge...

He also played a Les Paul a couple weeks ago at the Grammys... with 'buckers, not even P90s!

 

[wahwah]

Re: Strat vs. Les Paul clean tones.

Hendrix owned 3 Flying V's and 2 SG Customs. Obviously he liked something about them. He gave away many Strats too, BTW.

Here's a good comparison between Jimi using both Flying V and Strat.







Cheers....................................... wahwah

 

[wahwah]

Re: Strat vs. Les Paul clean tones.

Again I disagree there.

Humbuckers will flatline sooner if they're high output say, a distortion type pickup but with low-output pickups like Seth Lovers or a '59... some PAF-ish thing, I can wrangle more out of them then single coils... even a Tele.

Personally, I've found then when I pummel a Strat they break up sooner and become glassy, at least with my amps. A strat plugged into a cranked up AC30 with the channels jumped is not a very pleasing sound... at least not to me.

In my experience the single coils are the ones with limited dynamic range... at least in practice. There's also stuff I love to hate about strats... like the way the harmonics disappear with the neck pickup. More often then not the attack of the initial note is usually overwhelming, like a banjo. Good, no scratch that... GREAT strats don't have that 'banjo' problem but I've yet to find one I can afford to own, save for my '73 hardtail mutt.

Personally I'm in awe of the tones that Beck can coax from a Strat, hes very unique in that regard and there's plenty of Hendrix that I think sounds pretty "bad" too from a tonal standpoint where its glassy and shrill.

I'd also think that one of the reasons Jeff Beck went to strat is for the whammy bar... the note bending is a fairly integrated part of his style. That and strats are easier to fix then a Lester if you throw 'em around on stage like he was doing for while...

And wasn't he using stacked pickups for a while? I recall at one point he had the dual Lace Sensors in the bridge...

He also played a Les Paul a couple weeks ago at the Grammys... with 'buckers, not even P90s!

I can see us having to agree to disagree here, I can only go by my experience with humbuckers vs single coils. After years of digging in to my Strat, I know that a Les Paul with humbuckers just seems to hit a wall dynamically when I play them, and no amount of impact is going to make any difference once they reach that point. I've spent so long with a Strat that I've learned how to avoid the potential unpleasantries when it comes to amp and pedal choices, and it is also probably the case that I have been spoilt by the particular instrument I've owned and played all this time, there's plenty of Strats I wouldn't want to struggle with!

As for Jeff Beck playing a Les Paul at the Grammy's, it was a tribute to Les Paul. Perhaps he rightly deemed it appropriate!



Cheers..................................... wahwah

 

[Laughing Kookaburra]

Re: Strat vs. Les Paul clean tones.

I like 'em both, but I always seem to come back to Strats. I always change out the bridge pup to something w/more drive, though. Currently, I have a Fralin SP 43 there. That way I have the harder edged stuff covered, and btw the mid and neck pup (Fralins also), and the notch positions, I have an easier time covering a wide range of styles. I had a more difficult time covering all the bases on the LP Std, and LP Deluxe that I used to own. For me, part of that ease w/Strats are the dynamic aspects mentioned by wahwah. YMMV!

The closest two HB gtr I had in terms of versitility that I owned was an SG-X. The 500T in the bridge was coil tapped, and I installed a Jazz in the neck. That was a nice set up for me.

 

[guitarded]

Re: Strat vs. Les Paul clean tones.

I like 'em both, but I always seem to come back to Strats. I always change out the bridge pup to something w/more drive, though. Currently, I have a Fralin SP 43 there. That way I have the harder edged stuff covered, and btw the mid and neck pup (Fralins also), and the notch positions, I have an easier time covering a wide range of styles. I had a more difficult time covering all the bases on the LP Std, and LP Deluxe that I used to own. For me, part of that ease w/Strats are the dynamic aspects mentioned by wahwah. YMMV!

The closest two HB gtr I had in terms of versitility that I owned was an SG-X. The 500T in the bridge was coil tapped, and I installed a Jazz in the neck. That was a nice set up for me.

I've got Strats that definitely cover more ground, but nothing quite gets the same sustain and crunch tone you get out of a Les Paul. But since the subject is really cleans..... when I am using Pauls, I try to add some extra sparkle to the cleans with some chorus and delay. I have to attack the strings differently on the Paul when doing cleans.... Get too carried away and the strums sound too punchy.... Compression has helped with that a little.

 

[Laughing Kookaburra]

Re: Strat vs. Les Paul clean tones.

I've got Strats that definitely cover more ground, but nothing quite gets the same sustain and crunch tone you get out of a Les Paul. But since the subject is really cleans..... when I am using Pauls, I try to add some extra sparkle to the cleans with some chorus and delay. I have to attack the strings differently on the Paul when doing cleans.... Get too carried away and the strums sound too punchy.... Compression has helped with that a little.

Agreed re the crunch of a LP!

 

[blueman335]

Re: Strat vs. Les Paul clean tones.

He may have played the SG as a replacement for a song at a few gigs and perhaps on a recording or two later in his career, but that's a far cry from "Hendrix preferred to use Flying V's & SG Customs for (emotional) bluesy songs, live & in the studio."

You're assuming that Gibson use was insigificant, but I didn't get that from those quotes. While Hendrix favored Strats, they obviously didn't provide everything he wanted from an electric guitar.

 

[theboatcandream]

Re: Strat vs. Les Paul clean tones.

Mr Moose, I wasn't talking about the output level, I was talking about the difference between the way single coils and humbuckers respond to picking sensitivity. The point where a Les Paul no longer responds to a harder hit is much sooner than a Strat, meaning that there is a broader dynamic range in terms of pick attack with a standard single coil loaded instrument. This is a big part of the reason why guys like Jeff Beck made the change from LP to Strat, because so much of his style revolves around creating different tones by getting varying degrees of purchase on the string. A humbucker is going to flatline at a much lower point of impact, it just seems to be the nature of the beast.




Cheers...................................... wahwah

It might not get louder, but it still responds to harder picking. It just responds in ways other than volume.

Yup, the attack is much more even compared to the sustained notes in a Les Paul. In a Strat the attack jumps out harder, louder and clearer.

By itself, yes. But once other instruments are in the mix, you need your mids.

And sure, strats have mids. But not like les pauls and other gibsons do.

It's not a matter of EQ range, it's a matter of dynamic range. And for full dynamics, single coils are better.

If your goal is consistency and evenness, then single coils are worse.

 

[Diego]

Re: Strat vs. Les Paul clean tones.

Amps and overdrive pedals (if needed) can deliver plenty of mids. The Strat may not be naturally focused towards those fat mids the way a LP is, but it can be done if that's what you want, with proper EQing.

Onstage I'd really prefer to have something with single coils. Here we're talking preferences of course. And consistency and evenness does sound close to "flat", which is what I'd normally wouldn't want in my guitar sound. This of course varies from song to song.

I guess that's why guitars are instruments.

 

[blueman335]

Re: Strat vs. Les Paul clean tones.

I'd also think that one of the reasons Jeff Beck went to strat is for the whammy bar... the note bending is a fairly integrated part of his style. That and strats are easier to fix then a Lester if you throw 'em around on stage like he was doing for while.

+1. I think this was also a factor with Hendrix too. If they were around then, maybe Hendrix would have played some kind of HSH with a Floyd Rose.