Sustain in 20th+ frets
- Thread starter greekdude
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koshikas
New member
Re: Sustain in 20th+ frets
@greekdude I've been thinking what else could get in the way. almost everything is mentioned already.
few more things could be; going pass fret 19, how close are the strings to the pickups, specially neck pu. if it really close by the time you get to this higher frets, maybe the magnetism is damping the strings or much worse the stings might be hitting the poles or making some sort of contact.
you have mentioned that you fixed a lousy joint. what was wrong how did you fix it.
personally I'm not happy with sustain time of notes past fret 22 in most guitars I've played. layman physics, the one I specialise in, can give you some explanations too. apart from the few mentioned, if the neck is absolutely straight (no releif), and yes you have real low action here, when play those last frets, the strings even though fretted properly might be losing energy on making partial contacts with almost all frets before the fretted one. (I know it's really lame, who the hell knows) but I know for fact as mentioned here, the high notes of the piano ex. that higher notes eat up the energy faster due to the high frequencies. how so abrupt between 19 and 20+ well I don't know.
fret work looks fine in the snap, with that silly low action, must be real shred friendly axe you got there. so you've got 19 frets to your liking and 4 frets which marginally fail you and that only in sustain. I would say suck it and play (pun intended)
Sent from my XT1033 using Tapatalk
@greekdude I've been thinking what else could get in the way. almost everything is mentioned already.
few more things could be; going pass fret 19, how close are the strings to the pickups, specially neck pu. if it really close by the time you get to this higher frets, maybe the magnetism is damping the strings or much worse the stings might be hitting the poles or making some sort of contact.
you have mentioned that you fixed a lousy joint. what was wrong how did you fix it.
personally I'm not happy with sustain time of notes past fret 22 in most guitars I've played. layman physics, the one I specialise in, can give you some explanations too. apart from the few mentioned, if the neck is absolutely straight (no releif), and yes you have real low action here, when play those last frets, the strings even though fretted properly might be losing energy on making partial contacts with almost all frets before the fretted one. (I know it's really lame, who the hell knows) but I know for fact as mentioned here, the high notes of the piano ex. that higher notes eat up the energy faster due to the high frequencies. how so abrupt between 19 and 20+ well I don't know.
fret work looks fine in the snap, with that silly low action, must be real shred friendly axe you got there. so you've got 19 frets to your liking and 4 frets which marginally fail you and that only in sustain. I would say suck it and play (pun intended)
Sent from my XT1033 using Tapatalk
DrNewcenstein
He Did the Monster Mash
Re: Sustain in 20th+ frets
Perhaps your massive ego is choking the sustain? Jesus Christ, I've met some winners in the interweb, but you honestly think you're the first and only person on the internet to think of anything?
So, Zeus, how's the weather up on Olympus these days?
:lol:
Here's the skinny, Minnie: Physics doesn't care if you believe in it or not - it's not changing to suit your ego. Gravity will always be On, and water will always be wet. If you cannot accept these facts, please exit this universe and go build one that conforms to your vision.
You're comparing a self-modified basswood Ibenhad that is a cheap copy of Steve Vai's custom-made guitars, and which features low-quality hardware, AND has a large hole routed into the top of the body and covered by a slab of plastic, to a completely solid neckthrough AND a set-in neck with a body shape that has been proven since 1958 to enhance sustain, both of which the neck-to-body joints I'm quite sure you have not modified yourself.
Here again is the list of mistakes you've made so far (just in this thread!):
1. You modified the neck-to-body joint of a bolt-on yourself.
2. You're under the delusion that physics does not apply to you if you simply choose to ignore it and cover your ears and go "la la la la I can't hear you!"
3. You think everyone else is an idiot because they believe in the laws that bind the universe together - a.k.a. physics. The reason your guitar can even make sound is due to physics, yet you reject this reality and attempt to substitute your own.
4. You're trying to do this with a cheaply-made knockoff of a custom-built and much-better-quality guitar.
5. You're complaining about a 2-second loss in sustain. Yes, it's only one fret difference, and yes, it happens entirely because physics says that it must happen.
Now, since you have chosen to completely ignore physics and the role it plays in your guitar-related problem, please try the following to address the guitar-related problem:
1. Take it somewhere that physics does not apply. The bottom of a swimming pool, for example. I'd explain why, but it involves physics, and you wouldn't like the answer because of that. I've fixed this exact issue on dozens of vintage USA Fender Strats, Teles, and USA Les Pauls by holding them under 15 feet of water and tweaking the truss rod and leveling the frets. Jimmy Page is a regular customer of mine.
2. If #1 doesn't correct the issue, you might try molten lava instead. I've had to use that a few times when the water temperature wasn't high enough. Billy Gibbons has personally requested that I only use this method to fix his guitars.
3. If either of those don't work, and I've seen it happen - but only once, with Steve Vai's Green Meanie Charvel - you might want to see if dropping it off the roof of a 10-story building fixes it. It has to land on the very tip of the headstock, though, or else you'll have to do it again.
Perhaps your massive ego is choking the sustain? Jesus Christ, I've met some winners in the interweb, but you honestly think you're the first and only person on the internet to think of anything?
So, Zeus, how's the weather up on Olympus these days?
:lol:
Here's the skinny, Minnie: Physics doesn't care if you believe in it or not - it's not changing to suit your ego. Gravity will always be On, and water will always be wet. If you cannot accept these facts, please exit this universe and go build one that conforms to your vision.
You're comparing a self-modified basswood Ibenhad that is a cheap copy of Steve Vai's custom-made guitars, and which features low-quality hardware, AND has a large hole routed into the top of the body and covered by a slab of plastic, to a completely solid neckthrough AND a set-in neck with a body shape that has been proven since 1958 to enhance sustain, both of which the neck-to-body joints I'm quite sure you have not modified yourself.
Here again is the list of mistakes you've made so far (just in this thread!):
1. You modified the neck-to-body joint of a bolt-on yourself.
2. You're under the delusion that physics does not apply to you if you simply choose to ignore it and cover your ears and go "la la la la I can't hear you!"
3. You think everyone else is an idiot because they believe in the laws that bind the universe together - a.k.a. physics. The reason your guitar can even make sound is due to physics, yet you reject this reality and attempt to substitute your own.
4. You're trying to do this with a cheaply-made knockoff of a custom-built and much-better-quality guitar.
5. You're complaining about a 2-second loss in sustain. Yes, it's only one fret difference, and yes, it happens entirely because physics says that it must happen.
Now, since you have chosen to completely ignore physics and the role it plays in your guitar-related problem, please try the following to address the guitar-related problem:
1. Take it somewhere that physics does not apply. The bottom of a swimming pool, for example. I'd explain why, but it involves physics, and you wouldn't like the answer because of that. I've fixed this exact issue on dozens of vintage USA Fender Strats, Teles, and USA Les Pauls by holding them under 15 feet of water and tweaking the truss rod and leveling the frets. Jimmy Page is a regular customer of mine.
2. If #1 doesn't correct the issue, you might try molten lava instead. I've had to use that a few times when the water temperature wasn't high enough. Billy Gibbons has personally requested that I only use this method to fix his guitars.
3. If either of those don't work, and I've seen it happen - but only once, with Steve Vai's Green Meanie Charvel - you might want to see if dropping it off the roof of a 10-story building fixes it. It has to land on the very tip of the headstock, though, or else you'll have to do it again.
Re: Sustain in 20th+ frets
My Lord Jesus and his brother Jimmy,
Wow, I don't know greedude or anything like that but, but get off his ass. He has always been helpful to me. DrNewcenstein, you spelled whiners wrong, and made him one of the "winners" you've met. Good compliment.
Guess I am asking for it, but lighten up on the guy. I have a relative, she is so smart and highly educated she has 2 PHD's in something to do with Physics and Numbers - It is beyond beyond how smart she is. "SO, TO ALL WHO MAKE FUN OF SOMEONE WITH A PROBLEM: JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER TO A PROBLEM, DOESN'T MEAN THERE ISN'T A PROBLEM AND JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER DOESN'T MEAN THERE IS NO ANSWER!" That is a quote I overheard in a discussion having to do with a physics problem that my sister was discussing when I was puffing my first joint. I never forgot it. greekdude has a problem and he's looking for an answer. I did not hear him whine once and I personally think it is a valid question, and I would like to know the answer, of course it's physics, but it is in itself a very good question i.e. Why does one distance to the nearest fret cause a problem of 2 seconds. 1 second, meh, but 2? Good question.
I don't know the answer, but there is one, even if it can't be fixed in his case.
I like all you guys, greekdude too. Lighten up.
SJB
My Lord Jesus and his brother Jimmy,
Wow, I don't know greedude or anything like that but, but get off his ass. He has always been helpful to me. DrNewcenstein, you spelled whiners wrong, and made him one of the "winners" you've met. Good compliment.
Guess I am asking for it, but lighten up on the guy. I have a relative, she is so smart and highly educated she has 2 PHD's in something to do with Physics and Numbers - It is beyond beyond how smart she is. "SO, TO ALL WHO MAKE FUN OF SOMEONE WITH A PROBLEM: JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER TO A PROBLEM, DOESN'T MEAN THERE ISN'T A PROBLEM AND JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER DOESN'T MEAN THERE IS NO ANSWER!" That is a quote I overheard in a discussion having to do with a physics problem that my sister was discussing when I was puffing my first joint. I never forgot it. greekdude has a problem and he's looking for an answer. I did not hear him whine once and I personally think it is a valid question, and I would like to know the answer, of course it's physics, but it is in itself a very good question i.e. Why does one distance to the nearest fret cause a problem of 2 seconds. 1 second, meh, but 2? Good question.
I don't know the answer, but there is one, even if it can't be fixed in his case.
I like all you guys, greekdude too. Lighten up.
SJB
Jason_The_Angry
New member
Re: Sustain in 20th+ frets
Reading through this in its entirety, there are enough reasonable solutions suggested by folks to try and help the issue. There was an intent not to change the tone of the guitar, so that limits what can be done.
As for the reason why, I understand its a copout to just say its physics... EVERYTHING IS. However, to get to the bottom of the issue, you need a more detailed understanding of all the influencing factors and how they interact. We don't have a physicist/engineer here with a PhD in 3-D guitar string behavior, wood science, material science, electrical engineering, vibration mechanics... the explanation is there somewhere.
The questions of whether or not there's a problem of having 2 seconds less sustain in the highest range of the guitar is what spun this whole conversation out of control. No one likes to have their problems or concerns minimized, e.g. "pshhhh, two seconds less sustain above the 20th fret, who cares?"
Anyway, if I was going to take a guess...on the lower frets, the neck may play more of a role in sustain by positively interacting with the vibration of the strings. As you move higher on the frets, you essentially remove more and more of the neck from interacting with the vibrating string and end up with more of the body and remaining neck length influencing the string vibration. It's possible that the remaining neck length and body are not "tuned" to benefit frequencies that high. There are also a changes in the string length and small changes in tension, which may take you further and further away from the best combination of factors for sustain at those frequencies.
There are likely ways that could be used to describe the optimum combination of string qualities (stiffness, tension, length, cross section geometry) and neck/body configurations to have wonderful sustain at such high notes. However, most of those might lead to configurations that are impractical or unplayable. Nearly all instruments are based on compromise. Guitars have a wonderful range of frequencies in a small and light package, which makes them great. The down side is that there are going to be variations and limits across that range.
Here's some random internet links:
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0102088
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vibration
http://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/strings.html
At this point, I wish I had a potato to give you
Reading through this in its entirety, there are enough reasonable solutions suggested by folks to try and help the issue. There was an intent not to change the tone of the guitar, so that limits what can be done.
As for the reason why, I understand its a copout to just say its physics... EVERYTHING IS. However, to get to the bottom of the issue, you need a more detailed understanding of all the influencing factors and how they interact. We don't have a physicist/engineer here with a PhD in 3-D guitar string behavior, wood science, material science, electrical engineering, vibration mechanics... the explanation is there somewhere.
The questions of whether or not there's a problem of having 2 seconds less sustain in the highest range of the guitar is what spun this whole conversation out of control. No one likes to have their problems or concerns minimized, e.g. "pshhhh, two seconds less sustain above the 20th fret, who cares?"
Anyway, if I was going to take a guess...on the lower frets, the neck may play more of a role in sustain by positively interacting with the vibration of the strings. As you move higher on the frets, you essentially remove more and more of the neck from interacting with the vibrating string and end up with more of the body and remaining neck length influencing the string vibration. It's possible that the remaining neck length and body are not "tuned" to benefit frequencies that high. There are also a changes in the string length and small changes in tension, which may take you further and further away from the best combination of factors for sustain at those frequencies.
There are likely ways that could be used to describe the optimum combination of string qualities (stiffness, tension, length, cross section geometry) and neck/body configurations to have wonderful sustain at such high notes. However, most of those might lead to configurations that are impractical or unplayable. Nearly all instruments are based on compromise. Guitars have a wonderful range of frequencies in a small and light package, which makes them great. The down side is that there are going to be variations and limits across that range.
Here's some random internet links:
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0102088
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vibration
http://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/strings.html
At this point, I wish I had a potato to give you
Last edited:
Christopher Caruana
New member
Re: Sustain in 20th+ frets
Thinking about a guitar 15 ft underwater has me like :11: :17: haha
Thinking about a guitar 15 ft underwater has me like :11: :17: haha
Jason_The_Angry
New member
Re: Sustain in 20th+ frets
You are quite welcome, Mr. Buffington.
You are quite welcome, Mr. Buffington.
vinta9e
New member
Re: Sustain in 20th+ frets
Well, sustain at top frets is tough ****. You can't just go to a nearby store and buy it by the pound. You can't make it up out of some superglue and paper, either. There are sustain killing factors built into this guitar, so about the most you can do is play it louder and faster.
Well, sustain at top frets is tough ****. You can't just go to a nearby store and buy it by the pound. You can't make it up out of some superglue and paper, either. There are sustain killing factors built into this guitar, so about the most you can do is play it louder and faster.
DrNewcenstein
He Did the Monster Mash
Re: Sustain in 20th+ frets
I did not misspell "whiners", I used "winners" in its sarcasmic form. If you win the Gold at the Special Olympics, you're still retarded.
Jason's reply was not all that different from the other replies given, and rejected because GreekDude didn't like them or thought they should not apply to him because he was looking for something he could file, sand, or otherwise tweak.
I don't care how helpful he's been to anyone. I don't care about his education level. I don't care about his feelings or whether he's on the rag or if he's having a bad hair day or if he's the 2nd coming of Christ - he got valid answers and refused them because his panties were knotted by them.
"I don't have this issue on better guitars". No kidding! Gee, maybe you've isolated the issue yourself there, chief? Congratulations on your discovery that you overpaid for a POS. Who hasn't? Take a number, find a seat, plenty to go around.
A loss of 2 seconds in sustain just one fret up? Hmm, are you counting or are you timing? Are you using a timer that is known to be accurate or something you found at the 5 and dime?
Maybe it's the guitar? Maybe the resonance just ain't that great in that spot on the neck? Maybe that's right over the spot you modded? Maybe it's something Vai himself lives with? Have you consulted the other experts over at Jemsite? Maybe it's a common affliction with that particular model and no amount of kicking and screaming and temper tantrums will correct it? Maybe you need artificial sustain? Or could it be you've done something wrong? Horror of horrors! Gasp and horror! Shock and awe! Man discovers that he isn't perfect! Film at 11.
I did not misspell "whiners", I used "winners" in its sarcasmic form. If you win the Gold at the Special Olympics, you're still retarded.
Jason's reply was not all that different from the other replies given, and rejected because GreekDude didn't like them or thought they should not apply to him because he was looking for something he could file, sand, or otherwise tweak.
I don't care how helpful he's been to anyone. I don't care about his education level. I don't care about his feelings or whether he's on the rag or if he's having a bad hair day or if he's the 2nd coming of Christ - he got valid answers and refused them because his panties were knotted by them.
"I don't have this issue on better guitars". No kidding! Gee, maybe you've isolated the issue yourself there, chief? Congratulations on your discovery that you overpaid for a POS. Who hasn't? Take a number, find a seat, plenty to go around.
A loss of 2 seconds in sustain just one fret up? Hmm, are you counting or are you timing? Are you using a timer that is known to be accurate or something you found at the 5 and dime?
Maybe it's the guitar? Maybe the resonance just ain't that great in that spot on the neck? Maybe that's right over the spot you modded? Maybe it's something Vai himself lives with? Have you consulted the other experts over at Jemsite? Maybe it's a common affliction with that particular model and no amount of kicking and screaming and temper tantrums will correct it? Maybe you need artificial sustain? Or could it be you've done something wrong? Horror of horrors! Gasp and horror! Shock and awe! Man discovers that he isn't perfect! Film at 11.
Jason_The_Angry
New member
Re: Sustain in 20th+ frets
I forgot about that. You're dead on. The field would act as a damper, attempting to bring the string back to the center of greatest magnetic strength? Right? Back to the advice of playing with pickup heights..... maybe it's time to kill this thread.
I forgot about that. You're dead on. The field would act as a damper, attempting to bring the string back to the center of greatest magnetic strength? Right? Back to the advice of playing with pickup heights..... maybe it's time to kill this thread.
Snake Aces
Singlecut Slut
Re: Sustain in 20th+ frets
Pickup height can be a funny thing like that...
Too high = kill sustain
Too low = kill sustain
Then there is the whole problem of balancing volume levels on top of getting it just right for sustain.
Pickup height can be a funny thing like that...
Too high = kill sustain
Too low = kill sustain
Then there is the whole problem of balancing volume levels on top of getting it just right for sustain.
Snake Aces
Singlecut Slut
Re: Sustain in 20th+ frets
I was being sarcastic. Sorry, I should have stated as such!
I was being sarcastic. Sorry, I should have stated as such!
ehdwuld
A Ficus
Re: Sustain in 20th+ frets
I thought it was a real thing
was interested on how it got there
I thought it was a real thing
was interested on how it got there
Re: Sustain in 20th+ frets
DrNewcenstein,
O.K. Don't want to argue. Just trying to calm down the greekdude attacks, he's a forum guy, has a question fraught with landmines. I was just sticking up for a Forum guy. So proof positive, no good deed goes unpunished.
Special Olympics winner "Still retarded"? That's just plain mean and insensitive.
sjb
DrNewcenstein,
O.K. Don't want to argue. Just trying to calm down the greekdude attacks, he's a forum guy, has a question fraught with landmines. I was just sticking up for a Forum guy. So proof positive, no good deed goes unpunished.
Special Olympics winner "Still retarded"? That's just plain mean and insensitive.
sjb
Last edited:
kramersteen
PowerMetalRaph
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