Sustain in 20th+ frets
- Thread starter greekdude
- Start date
Re: Sustain in 20th+ frets
Edgecrusher,
There can be no doubt that you are ridiculing me, kramersteen, or both of us. I have grown thicker skin than I used to have, and knew I might get an insult. But, in defending greekdude, if you read what I said, I was defending everyone on the Forum, including you, from ridicule and insults as they have no place here.
That's what it says anyway. Thicker skin or not, you did actually make me feel embarrassed for trying to be a good guy. If that was your intent, then shame on you. If you were joking, it does not come across that way. If you ever have a question, and I think I can help, I chime in. Also you are wasting space with something that has nothing to do with the thread, at all.
Hopefully still a fellow forum guy (with you),
Steve Buffington
Edgecrusher,
There can be no doubt that you are ridiculing me, kramersteen, or both of us. I have grown thicker skin than I used to have, and knew I might get an insult. But, in defending greekdude, if you read what I said, I was defending everyone on the Forum, including you, from ridicule and insults as they have no place here.
That's what it says anyway. Thicker skin or not, you did actually make me feel embarrassed for trying to be a good guy. If that was your intent, then shame on you. If you were joking, it does not come across that way. If you ever have a question, and I think I can help, I chime in. Also you are wasting space with something that has nothing to do with the thread, at all.
Hopefully still a fellow forum guy (with you),
Steve Buffington
kramersteen
PowerMetalRaph
kramersteen
PowerMetalRaph
Re: Sustain in 20th+ frets
Edgey honey booboo clean your box-in.
Edgey honey booboo clean your box-in.
Edgecrusher
Well-known member
Re: Sustain in 20th+ frets
Hah... had become popular all of a sudden and had to flush it out... should be clear now
Hah... had become popular all of a sudden and had to flush it out... should be clear now
Edgecrusher
Well-known member
Re: Sustain in 20th+ frets
Buffi mate... Ridiculing you would be me making fun of you... I can assure you I am not making fun of you. Though Iam laughing at the exchange you 2 had. Me reading an exchange and finding it funny and posting that i found it humorous is not an insult.
I have noticed lately that you lead the charge to be the first to claim righteous indignation around here and i am sorry but greekdude doesnt need you to be insulted for him. Greek dude has made many threads asking for help and many people including myself have genuinely tried to help him. ONLY to be rebuffed by him. You are very fond of saying "no good deed goes unpunished" Well greekdude has "punished" many of us for trying to assist him with his problems. Ok maybe punish is a strong word but he will come off defensive and tell you that no he knows how to fix it better. Which makes one insist on asking the question "then why did you ask?" This isnt the first time, nor 3rd or 4th its been many and after awhile people are just a bit worn down.
Do you see where i'm coming from buffi?
If you have watched around here sometimes people will feel they are defending others by being insulted for them and they dont realize that they make the situation much worse by trying to white knight it. No one here is attacking greek dude. At the very worst I saw a few people showing their frustration at his continued refusal cooperating with the help that HE asked for. As Dr Phil likes to say "Help me to help you"
For my part I lost all interest in helping greekdude after myself and Kramersteen gave him a suggestion on how to fix the issue with the hell of the neck on his guitar. He both ignored and derided these suggestions. Only to 3 days later come back and claim "the guitar is fixed! the wonderful experts at jemsite gave me the same suggestion you did and I took it they are wonderful brilliant masters of the guitar"
This put me off completely... We already made that suggestion and he gives credit and praise to them? pffft...
No idea why your embarassed. If a gif of Ricky Gervais giggling embarasses you thats not on me. I hold no shame and will stand solidly on my comments in this thread.
Buffi mate... Ridiculing you would be me making fun of you... I can assure you I am not making fun of you. Though Iam laughing at the exchange you 2 had. Me reading an exchange and finding it funny and posting that i found it humorous is not an insult.
I have noticed lately that you lead the charge to be the first to claim righteous indignation around here and i am sorry but greekdude doesnt need you to be insulted for him. Greek dude has made many threads asking for help and many people including myself have genuinely tried to help him. ONLY to be rebuffed by him. You are very fond of saying "no good deed goes unpunished" Well greekdude has "punished" many of us for trying to assist him with his problems. Ok maybe punish is a strong word but he will come off defensive and tell you that no he knows how to fix it better. Which makes one insist on asking the question "then why did you ask?" This isnt the first time, nor 3rd or 4th its been many and after awhile people are just a bit worn down.
Do you see where i'm coming from buffi?
If you have watched around here sometimes people will feel they are defending others by being insulted for them and they dont realize that they make the situation much worse by trying to white knight it. No one here is attacking greek dude. At the very worst I saw a few people showing their frustration at his continued refusal cooperating with the help that HE asked for. As Dr Phil likes to say "Help me to help you"
For my part I lost all interest in helping greekdude after myself and Kramersteen gave him a suggestion on how to fix the issue with the hell of the neck on his guitar. He both ignored and derided these suggestions. Only to 3 days later come back and claim "the guitar is fixed! the wonderful experts at jemsite gave me the same suggestion you did and I took it they are wonderful brilliant masters of the guitar"
This put me off completely... We already made that suggestion and he gives credit and praise to them? pffft...
No idea why your embarassed. If a gif of Ricky Gervais giggling embarasses you thats not on me. I hold no shame and will stand solidly on my comments in this thread.
Re: Sustain in 20th+ frets
You try to oversimplify things. Lots of people from here helped. And everyone has gotten credit. (can't say the same about people that I have helped from here) At jemsite, I exchanged *LOTS* of measurements with certain people from jemsite (it seems you bothered to browse over the relevant threads), who measured their AANJ jems/RGs/universes with the highest precision, in order for me to be able to draw a verdict. It was not simple as "plug - redril" or "inserts" or any other suggestion. The thing was so technical that all the geometry had to be studied with precision. The implementation of the solution was a mere detail. The important one was to see if the geometry and the offsets were correct. Again the situation there proved marginal to say the least. The moment the guy giving his numbers started to scream "return this", and after reading his last numbers, i started screaming "THANX I'LL FIX IT!!". As you understand it was much more involved than you try to portray here. This research could not be done here. Not enough guitars to make a good sample, or just not many volunteers (or just too many trolls like this braumbarrels or whatever, although this last one has its funny side). But claiming that e.g. the guy dismissed our advice and went over to jemsite for help, in this oversimplified form is childish at best.
You try to oversimplify things. Lots of people from here helped. And everyone has gotten credit. (can't say the same about people that I have helped from here) At jemsite, I exchanged *LOTS* of measurements with certain people from jemsite (it seems you bothered to browse over the relevant threads), who measured their AANJ jems/RGs/universes with the highest precision, in order for me to be able to draw a verdict. It was not simple as "plug - redril" or "inserts" or any other suggestion. The thing was so technical that all the geometry had to be studied with precision. The implementation of the solution was a mere detail. The important one was to see if the geometry and the offsets were correct. Again the situation there proved marginal to say the least. The moment the guy giving his numbers started to scream "return this", and after reading his last numbers, i started screaming "THANX I'LL FIX IT!!". As you understand it was much more involved than you try to portray here. This research could not be done here. Not enough guitars to make a good sample, or just not many volunteers (or just too many trolls like this braumbarrels or whatever, although this last one has its funny side). But claiming that e.g. the guy dismissed our advice and went over to jemsite for help, in this oversimplified form is childish at best.
Last edited:
Re: Sustain in 20th+ frets
speak as long as you wish man, don't try to sound pleasant to all, or your are gonna end up not saying anything at all!
speak as long as you wish man, don't try to sound pleasant to all, or your are gonna end up not saying anything at all!
Re: Sustain in 20th+ frets
As far as speaking to much,
I have had people (about 4-5) tell me when I ask a new question, or thread, I talk so much and repeat myself so much that they look at it and think "This is way to long to even start with." This was told to me after I asked why no one would chime in on a couple of my threads. I get that, I have a tendency to be so precise that I just get triple redundant.
And that is true. I am still working on that part of "speak too much"
Also, if a thread has gone negative, it is best for me to step away, I have made a lot of "white knight" speeches, most here have heard them, so no point repeating myself anymore.
Thanks,
sjb
As far as speaking to much,
I have had people (about 4-5) tell me when I ask a new question, or thread, I talk so much and repeat myself so much that they look at it and think "This is way to long to even start with." This was told to me after I asked why no one would chime in on a couple of my threads. I get that, I have a tendency to be so precise that I just get triple redundant.
And that is true. I am still working on that part of "speak too much"
Also, if a thread has gone negative, it is best for me to step away, I have made a lot of "white knight" speeches, most here have heard them, so no point repeating myself anymore.
Thanks,
sjb
Re: Sustain in 20th+ frets
Precision is trolls' greatest nightmare. Every time precision comes into consideratiion, they try to bury it under tons of filth.
Re: Sustain in 20th+ frets
An update, it seems that adding silencing medical rubber tubes into the springs, and blocking the trem (both of those) did help in adding about 1 second of sustain. Its a big guitar (7-string), with a big trem, many parts, with a very efficient floating system (which makes energy escaping to vibrating parts like the springs very easy), and the aim should be the least movement or vibration of those parts. If this can be achieved then good sustain till the 22th fret may be achieved. (on par with the rest of my axes).
I'll keep experimenting and let you guys know.
An update, it seems that adding silencing medical rubber tubes into the springs, and blocking the trem (both of those) did help in adding about 1 second of sustain. Its a big guitar (7-string), with a big trem, many parts, with a very efficient floating system (which makes energy escaping to vibrating parts like the springs very easy), and the aim should be the least movement or vibration of those parts. If this can be achieved then good sustain till the 22th fret may be achieved. (on par with the rest of my axes).
I'll keep experimenting and let you guys know.
Re: Sustain in 20th+ frets
I did some more resaerch on this, and found this article by Frudua (a well known Italian maker) : http://www.frudua.com/sound_of_electric_guitar_wood.htm
What he basically says is that the wood should resonate near the strings peak resonance but not over it, since a neutral wood or other material which resonates at a higher (or lower) frequency than the strings, would contribute nothing to the guitars' tone, no coloring to the sound. But if on the other hand the band of frequencies of the strings at various lengths overlaps greatly with the frequencies of the wood, then those frequencies will be cancelled, and the instrument will suffer from dead notes.
I did some tests on sustain on Carvin and on the Ibanez :
Carvin DC135 : 24.75" , hard maple neck trhough, hard maple wings (most propably), 24 frets, OFR bridge, Gotoh nut, DImarzio super distortion, empty, air norton S
Ibanez UV70p : 25.5", Wizard-7 5-piece maple/walnut neck, basswood body, 24 frets, edge zero ii-7, ibanez nut, Dimarzio blaze : bridge, middle, neck.
Overall both guitars sustain well. On the lower part of the fretboard (left side), I think Ibanez sustains just a little better. On the high frets 12-20, they are equal. On 22nd fret, the Carvin wins hands down. On the carvin I got sustain 5 seconds on D (high E 22nd fret), without the amp, and about 10+ seconds or more with a little help of the amp feedback. On the uv70p, i cannot make the same fret D (high E 22nd fret) ring for so long, no matter what. I get 4 seconds max. Not a big problem, I was just thinking about it.
Now, the same note is produced by the pinch/natural harmonic on 3rd string 3rd fret, it is exactly the same frequency. Now hold tight!!!
When played as an harmonic on the 3rd string 3rd fret, the sustain is better on the ibanez!!! (Carvin struggles to hold the note)
When played as a freted note on the 1st string 22nd fret, the sustain is better on the Carvin!!! (Ibanez struggles to hold the note)
In the meantime, the Carvin, *always* kicked some butt in the harmonics high on the fretboard on high strings (yes even high E)!
What I get :
While we play, not on last frets : e.g open->20th , then neck wood takes most of the responsibility of resonating the note. When we play from 20-24th, then the body takes that responsibility.
Now, the Carvin, being a hard maple neck , resonate some frequencies differently than the ibanez which is maple/walnut, maybe the Ibanez can do some mid/high-range natural harmonics better on the left side (longer string lengths) of the fretboard, that's why the natural harmonic sounds better on the Ibanez. I had learned this harmonic from my Kramer, which literally can sustain this note for days. It is also mid-range-y as well as the Ibanez. Now on the 22nd fret, the neck maybe gets out of the equation, and it is the body doing its work now (as frudua says here : www.frudua.com/neck_influence_in_guitar_tone.htm ). Now, the basswood body simply cannot resonate this frequency at this string length (shorter string lengths) while the maple does this very well.
EDIT : this last should be, "the basswood body resonates at a very similar frequency, cancelling each other out"
If the problem was buzz I would have dealt with it. There is no buzz, 20th fret does 5 seconds with no amp no feedback, and on 24th fret drops to barely 2-3. Also the pattern of the fade out is like : strong -> weak -> instantly strong -> sudden death. It is some opposing (same????) frequency that is killing it.
I checked for bridge vibrations, saddle vibrations, I silenced the trem springs, there is no indication of mechanical malfunction, otherwise the problem might affect other notes as well, not just the last 3 frets. I start to believe woods are the most important. At least comparison of those two guitars drives me to believe so.
I tend to believe this has to do with the frequencies, the string lengths, and the medium involved (maple, basswood, nickel, zinc). Fine tuning all those parameters is what gives a good instrument. I think blindly choosing materials (like I did in my non-sustaining partscaster) won't result in a tone rich instrument. Comparing my strat, kramer, carvin and the two ibanezes (the second ibanez ARZ800 is all Mahogany neck/body and rosewood fretboard), i tend to believe that a good instrument can do *many* notes well, maybe not all but most. Instruments with dead notes in crucial "popular" regions of the fretboard are IMO examples of bad wood selection and/or combination. For me, metal hardware never played much role in all this. My partscaster's sustain sucked no matter the upgardes, the pups, the super-vee's. My traditional old good Aria strat, which I have since I was still in school, sustains no matter the bridge, the headers it has taken all those years, all the problems i caused on the wood (but later fixed). I can't get it to not sustain! I believe if an instrument is good at the vast majority of missions it will undertake, then it is a keeper, otherwise not so much.
I did some more resaerch on this, and found this article by Frudua (a well known Italian maker) : http://www.frudua.com/sound_of_electric_guitar_wood.htm
What he basically says is that the wood should resonate near the strings peak resonance but not over it, since a neutral wood or other material which resonates at a higher (or lower) frequency than the strings, would contribute nothing to the guitars' tone, no coloring to the sound. But if on the other hand the band of frequencies of the strings at various lengths overlaps greatly with the frequencies of the wood, then those frequencies will be cancelled, and the instrument will suffer from dead notes.
I did some tests on sustain on Carvin and on the Ibanez :
Carvin DC135 : 24.75" , hard maple neck trhough, hard maple wings (most propably), 24 frets, OFR bridge, Gotoh nut, DImarzio super distortion, empty, air norton S
Ibanez UV70p : 25.5", Wizard-7 5-piece maple/walnut neck, basswood body, 24 frets, edge zero ii-7, ibanez nut, Dimarzio blaze : bridge, middle, neck.
Overall both guitars sustain well. On the lower part of the fretboard (left side), I think Ibanez sustains just a little better. On the high frets 12-20, they are equal. On 22nd fret, the Carvin wins hands down. On the carvin I got sustain 5 seconds on D (high E 22nd fret), without the amp, and about 10+ seconds or more with a little help of the amp feedback. On the uv70p, i cannot make the same fret D (high E 22nd fret) ring for so long, no matter what. I get 4 seconds max. Not a big problem, I was just thinking about it.
Now, the same note is produced by the pinch/natural harmonic on 3rd string 3rd fret, it is exactly the same frequency. Now hold tight!!!
When played as an harmonic on the 3rd string 3rd fret, the sustain is better on the ibanez!!! (Carvin struggles to hold the note)
When played as a freted note on the 1st string 22nd fret, the sustain is better on the Carvin!!! (Ibanez struggles to hold the note)
In the meantime, the Carvin, *always* kicked some butt in the harmonics high on the fretboard on high strings (yes even high E)!
What I get :
While we play, not on last frets : e.g open->20th , then neck wood takes most of the responsibility of resonating the note. When we play from 20-24th, then the body takes that responsibility.
Now, the Carvin, being a hard maple neck , resonate some frequencies differently than the ibanez which is maple/walnut, maybe the Ibanez can do some mid/high-range natural harmonics better on the left side (longer string lengths) of the fretboard, that's why the natural harmonic sounds better on the Ibanez. I had learned this harmonic from my Kramer, which literally can sustain this note for days. It is also mid-range-y as well as the Ibanez. Now on the 22nd fret, the neck maybe gets out of the equation, and it is the body doing its work now (as frudua says here : www.frudua.com/neck_influence_in_guitar_tone.htm ). Now, the basswood body simply cannot resonate this frequency at this string length (shorter string lengths) while the maple does this very well.
EDIT : this last should be, "the basswood body resonates at a very similar frequency, cancelling each other out"
If the problem was buzz I would have dealt with it. There is no buzz, 20th fret does 5 seconds with no amp no feedback, and on 24th fret drops to barely 2-3. Also the pattern of the fade out is like : strong -> weak -> instantly strong -> sudden death. It is some opposing (same????) frequency that is killing it.
I checked for bridge vibrations, saddle vibrations, I silenced the trem springs, there is no indication of mechanical malfunction, otherwise the problem might affect other notes as well, not just the last 3 frets. I start to believe woods are the most important. At least comparison of those two guitars drives me to believe so.
I tend to believe this has to do with the frequencies, the string lengths, and the medium involved (maple, basswood, nickel, zinc). Fine tuning all those parameters is what gives a good instrument. I think blindly choosing materials (like I did in my non-sustaining partscaster) won't result in a tone rich instrument. Comparing my strat, kramer, carvin and the two ibanezes (the second ibanez ARZ800 is all Mahogany neck/body and rosewood fretboard), i tend to believe that a good instrument can do *many* notes well, maybe not all but most. Instruments with dead notes in crucial "popular" regions of the fretboard are IMO examples of bad wood selection and/or combination. For me, metal hardware never played much role in all this. My partscaster's sustain sucked no matter the upgardes, the pups, the super-vee's. My traditional old good Aria strat, which I have since I was still in school, sustains no matter the bridge, the headers it has taken all those years, all the problems i caused on the wood (but later fixed). I can't get it to not sustain! I believe if an instrument is good at the vast majority of missions it will undertake, then it is a keeper, otherwise not so much.
Last edited:
Juanhanglo
Active member
Re: Sustain in 20th+ frets
Greekdude, you are most definitely right in thinking that it is the body dampening the sustain.
i believe it is more of an issue with basswood bodies than with other woods.
I have both a basswood rg921 and a mahogany rg520 and I noticed the same thing you did on the high frets. To eliminate some variables, I swapped the rg520 neck ( which is 2 mm narrower at the heel) and, while the tone changed a bit due to neck construction, the sustain did not change up high.)
My conclusion is that basswood, being softer than all other woods is the cause of this.
I even have an alder necked/semi hollow alder bodied guitar that sustains better than my rg921.
That said, since I rarely play that high, it doesn't bother me, and it is still a kicks ass all around guitar
Greekdude, you are most definitely right in thinking that it is the body dampening the sustain.
i believe it is more of an issue with basswood bodies than with other woods.
I have both a basswood rg921 and a mahogany rg520 and I noticed the same thing you did on the high frets. To eliminate some variables, I swapped the rg520 neck ( which is 2 mm narrower at the heel) and, while the tone changed a bit due to neck construction, the sustain did not change up high.)
My conclusion is that basswood, being softer than all other woods is the cause of this.
I even have an alder necked/semi hollow alder bodied guitar that sustains better than my rg921.
That said, since I rarely play that high, it doesn't bother me, and it is still a kicks ass all around guitar
Re: Sustain in 20th+ frets
Thanx for sharing your tests Juanhanglo! I think that certain frequencies of the wood are trying to cancel the main string frequency. The points where the two signals meet maybe at the least common multitude of the periods of the two frequencies. I am thinking those are the points where the signal seems to gain a little and then suddenly weaken.
A good experiment would be if someone could test with various upgrade tremolo blocks, saddle materials, etc, in an attempt to change those wood frequencies. IMO this won't change a thing. I agree that basswood on Ibanezes sounds so good that a loss of 1 second or so up in the higher register is not a deal breaker. On the other hand, sustain-wise, basswood might be better on the center of the fretboard. A guitar with optimum sustain would be made with materials which do not vibrate near the string frequencies. But then those would not color the sound and might sound sterile to people. My all maple Carvin sustains very good on higher frets, but has no volume, no mellowness on the mid and lower frets. Its a compromise really.
Thanx for sharing your tests Juanhanglo! I think that certain frequencies of the wood are trying to cancel the main string frequency. The points where the two signals meet maybe at the least common multitude of the periods of the two frequencies. I am thinking those are the points where the signal seems to gain a little and then suddenly weaken.
A good experiment would be if someone could test with various upgrade tremolo blocks, saddle materials, etc, in an attempt to change those wood frequencies. IMO this won't change a thing. I agree that basswood on Ibanezes sounds so good that a loss of 1 second or so up in the higher register is not a deal breaker. On the other hand, sustain-wise, basswood might be better on the center of the fretboard. A guitar with optimum sustain would be made with materials which do not vibrate near the string frequencies. But then those would not color the sound and might sound sterile to people. My all maple Carvin sustains very good on higher frets, but has no volume, no mellowness on the mid and lower frets. Its a compromise really.
Last edited:
DrNewcenstein
He Did the Monster Mash
Re: Sustain in 20th+ frets
And so we come full circle in this issue, and the answer is as it always was: physics.
Fender has Blues Lawyers, Jemsite has Blues Physicists.
And so we come full circle in this issue, and the answer is as it always was: physics.
Fender has Blues Lawyers, Jemsite has Blues Physicists.
Re: Sustain in 20th+ frets
No one denied that. The point should be where are the limiting factors in all this. It could be "physics" due to crappy saddles, or crappy trem block, in which case it would make sense upgrading. But if it is the nature of basswood, then this is simply the theoretical limit, and once you reached it, you have the optimum. No money wasted in pointless exotic upgrades.
This has nothing to do with jemsite which is a very quiet site as of late.
Similar threads
