Sweatshop Stratocaster???

[Fender_Punk]

Hey everyone,

With NAFTA and the WTO moving jobs and factories to other countries for the "convenience of lower prices" I've noticed guitar manufacturers have jumped on the bandwagon. My question is, are the Fender factories in Mexico and Indonesia (Indonesia is where Squiers are made) sweat shops? I know fender Japan isn't as Japan bans the use of slave labour, but what about the rest?

I'm asking all of you, because I can't figure it out. On one hand, Fender guitars from Japan, Mexico and Squiers from Indonesia and Korea are almost all really well made. I could tell looking at my Squier's electronics the first time I open it up that a machine did all the soldering, so that suggests machines are doing a lot of the work on Squiers. But if a guitar that could be made and sold for $350 using slave labour is $600, it makes you think that maybe the workers are legitimately paid. I know I'm thinking freely here, but this is just a bit of the logic I've come across so far.

If anyone has some evidence to suggest that Fender or Squier does or doesn't use slave labour, I'd like to know. In fact, same goes for any other major company (Gibson, Epiphone, Ibanez, BC Rich, Gretsch, etc).

 

[Pierre]

Re: Sweatshop Stratocaster???

The soldering is actually one of the most likely operation to be done by hands.

There are LOADS of pictures of the Mexican facility everywhere and on this forum.

It also takes a bit of expertise to use the machines (CNC, routers, carving) and to do guitar work (nuts, fretting... though what I've seen in Squiers made me puke).

 

[Rich_T]

Re: Sweatshop Stratocaster???

As far as I know, the Mexico factory has reasonable working conditions, i've seen pics and read a bit about it, seems 'alright', its no 'investor in people' by any means, but its fair.

As far asother companies go, I'm really not sure. The only way I can be sure that my gear is pretty ethically sourced is if its made in my own county by a small company I know. In my case, thats people like Gordon Smith guitars, Matamp, and such brands. People I can phone up and speak to the owner, and ask where he gets his wood, his parts etc...

 

[JohnnyGuitar]

Re: Sweatshop Stratocaster???

I think that many parts, like bridges are made in big factories in 3rd world countries - maye even those who are used on expenssive made in the USA guitars.

I really don't know for sure... just a thought.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Sweatshop Stratocaster???

Before the discussion can proceed any further, we have to first clarify terms. One is that there is a difference between a sweat shop and slave labor. You can leave a sweat shop any time you want. If you are a slave, you can't go anywhere.

Now we need to clarify what exactly is a sweatshop. You have to consider the context of the economy and labor market in each country. In most cases, the "sweatshops" Western corporations are accused of running have far better pay and working conditions than the jobs that are otherwise available to the locals. Labor activists generally consider any workplace that is not 100% up to Western standards a "sweatshop", which means it is a sweatshop if they work an 8.5 hour day without overtime instead of just 8, or they are not allowed to form unions, or they have 6-day workweeks instead of 5, or a whole host of issues that are controlled by the host country's laws that the foreign companies have no say over.

This is not to say that some Western companies don't engage in immoral exploitation of foreign labor. Some do and they need to be stopped. But as indicated above, the definition of "sweatshop" has been deliberately made so broad and amorphous that more often than not, said activists who claim to be helping poor laborers overseas actually end up making things worse for them by taking away a great job opportunity where the pay and working conditions are far better than where they would otherwise be working, assuming they could find a job at all.

So in other words, please research each case in great detail and always wait for the other shoe to drop. There are lots of folks out there on all sides of every issue who have agendas, most of whom will wittingly or unwittingly stretch the truth like lawyers arguing for their clients. Many exploit high school and college kids for their causes (and ironically use them as free labor) because at their age they are very impressionable and searching for causes to give their lives meaning -- so it's easy to get them worked up into a rage to go out and protest with a few pamphlets and videos that they know the kids won't look at critically.

So use the very same standards of evidence and fairness you would want used if you were the one either on trial or in the middle of a controversy.

 

[More-Gear-Than-Skill]

Re: Sweatshop Stratocaster???

i think if you live in Indo, and get a job at the local axe making factory, you're seen as one lucky Mofo! The photo essay i saw of the mex factory, looks great. On fridays, if your quality/quantity is met, you go home early...

China, well, who knows?

 

[Fender_Punk]

Re: Sweatshop Stratocaster???

Before the discussion can proceed any further, we have to first clarify terms. One is that there is a difference between a sweat shop and slave labor. You can leave a sweat shop any time you want. If you are a slave, you can't go anywhere.

Now we need to clarify what exactly is a sweatshop. You have to consider the context of the economy and labor market in each country. In most cases, the "sweatshops" Western corporations are accused of running have far better pay and working conditions than the jobs that are otherwise available to the locals. Labor activists generally consider any workplace that is not 100% up to Western standards a "sweatshop", which means it is a sweatshop if they work an 8.5 hour day without overtime instead of just 8, or they are not allowed to form unions, or they have 6-day workweeks instead of 5, or a whole host of issues that are controlled by the host country's laws that the foreign companies have no say over.

This is not to say that some Western companies don't engage in immoral exploitation of foreign labor. Some do and they need to be stopped. But as indicated above, the definition of "sweatshop" has been deliberately made so broad and amorphous that more often than not, said activists who claim to be helping poor laborers overseas actually end up making things worse for them by taking away a great job opportunity where the pay and working conditions are far better than where they would otherwise be working, assuming they could find a job at all.

My question is asking if Fender or Squier engages is either sweatshops or slave labour, which, in many ways, are alike. I'm asking if anyone knows because, as a huge fan of Fender guitars, I want to know that I'm supporting a guitar manufacturer that hasn't jumped on the same bandwagons as brands such as Nike, Adidas, Tommy Hilfiger and many others.

I'm going to set my standards for this question as Does Fender or Squier:
-Pay wages that are not sufficient to maintain a standard of living above poverty (based on 60 hour work week).
-Allow members to form unions IF THEY DESIRE (all factories in western nations that aren't considered to be sweat shops have this as a regulation. Doesn't necessarily have to be a union, but the option to go union).
- Do not chain their workers, and provide working standards that ensure their safety. Added to this, if they beat their workers as punishment instead of suspension or firing, include that on the chart.

I'm going to try to look into this myself. Hopefully we can find some accurate, cncrete evidance, and hopefully Fender and Squier are not a Nike or McDonald's! (I honestly hope this because I quite like Squiers and the MIM Fenders, except Showmasters)

 

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: Sweatshop Stratocaster???

One of the big incentives for North American and Western European companies to locate manfacturing facilities beyond the borders isn't always cheaper labor exclusively. It's more lax enviromental policies. Enviromental laws add significantly to costs of manafacturing. It's not widely known, but the enviromental policies in the USA, and particularly California, are comparvitely tough and strict, compared to most other places in the world.

 

[Skarekrough]

Re: Sweatshop Stratocaster???

Check the Fender Forum about the Mexico factory.

One of the great stories I remember is that if a worker finishes his quota by Friday he gets a three-day weekend.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Sweatshop Stratocaster???

I'm going to set my standards for this question as Does Fender or Squier:

-Pay wages that are not sufficient to maintain a standard of living above poverty (based on 60 hour work week).

Then you have to specifically define "poverty".

-Allow members to form unions IF THEY DESIRE (all factories in western nations that aren't considered to be sweat shops have this as a regulation. Doesn't necessarily have to be a union, but the option to go union).

Does everyone in the shop HAVE to go union if some do? Can it be a "right to work" country?

- Do not chain their workers, and provide working standards that ensure their safety. Added to this, if they beat their workers as punishment instead of suspension or firing, include that on the chart.

I can obviously go along with that one.

I'm going to try to look into this myself. Hopefully we can find some accurate, cncrete evidance, and hopefully Fender and Squier are not a Nike or McDonald's! (I honestly hope this because I quite like Squiers and the MIM Fenders, except Showmasters)

Be sure to doublecheck the Nike and McDonalds accusations too.

 

[J Moose]

Re: Sweatshop Stratocaster???

I'm going to try to look into this myself. Hopefully we can find some accurate, cncrete evidance, and hopefully Fender and Squier are not a Nike or McDonald's! (I honestly hope this because I quite like Squiers and the MIM Fenders, except Showmasters)

I dunno about the working conditions but yes... Fender & Squier...Epiphone, Ibanez etc... are your "McDonalds" of the guitar companies.

You can find 'em new anywhere & everywhere...always at the "30 day best price" or whuddever. Millions made, millions played.

On the flip side, there's companies & builders like Tom Anderson, John Shur, McIntruff, Valley Arts, Hamer, Paul Reed Smith & Schecter USA (NOT the import stuff so much!) & many many more that offer a WAY hipper 'instrument' rather then what in some cases is nothing more then a piece of furniture with strings.



I own a few Korean made instruments, a few MIJ's...but the majority are built in America.


I often wonder why in 1993...for under $1000...more like $600 anyone could go out and buy an American made guitar. I bought a Hamer Diablo, new for that, a buddy got a new Am Std. Strat.

Now an American Std Strat's just about $1000 & those Highway 1 things are $600. Korean & Indoensian made guitars are EVERYWHERE at $600 and none of 'em are exactly comperable to their USA brethern of 10 years ago at the same price points.


What gives?!?!

 

[Fender_Punk]

Re: Sweatshop Stratocaster???

One of the big incentives for North American and Western European companies to locate manfacturing facilities beyond the borders isn't always cheaper labor exclusively. It's more lax enviromental policies. Enviromental laws add significantly to costs of manafacturing. It's not widely known, but the enviromental policies in the USA, and particularly California, are comparvitely tough and strict, compared to most other places in the world.

So they should be. If we don't look after our environment, we wont have one to live in.

 

[Kamanda~SD]

Re: Sweatshop Stratocaster???

From what I've seen Fender Mexico plant looks good. The working ENVIRONMENT is great which is a huge bonus compared to other companies down there. the workers look happy and as we know a happy worker is a good worker and Mexico pumps out many great Fenders.

I don'e imagine their getting paid minimum wage here but I beleive its above the standard in mexio. I think Fender in particular is good to it's emploees and thats why some of the best Mexican guitars come from that plant.

 

[Fender_Punk]

Re: Sweatshop Stratocaster???

From what I've seen Fender Mexico plant looks good. The working ENVIRONMENT is great which is a huge bonus compared to other companies down there. the workers look happy and as we know a happy worker is a good worker and Mexico pumps out many great Fenders.

I don'e imagine their getting paid minimum wage here but I beleive its above the standard in mexio. I think Fender in particular is good to it's emploees and thats why some of the best Mexican guitars come from that plant.

I hope the same is true with Squier in Indonesia and Korea, because most of the guitars that come from Squier are quite good. Or maybe it's just my guitars.

I seem to be lucky, or good at choosing. My Squier Strat is comparable to a Mexican Fender (too bad I didn't have a Japanese Squier!!) and my Tele (MIM) is second to none to any American I've played (and I have others who would back me up on that!)

 

[LesStrat]

Re: Sweatshop Stratocaster???

*yawn*

 

[JohnnyGuitar]

Re: Sweatshop Stratocaster???

I really like the fact that musicians who preach against capitalism do it on MTV while using gear coming from famous brands - like Rage Againt the Machine do...
Of course if you use cheap guitars they are probably made in a poor country by underpaid workers..
So there's no way around it...
What you can do is- be picky and buy gear that is less branded.
I know I'm rude, and don't get me wrong here I love Teles and Strats and I'm more of lefty in most of my views then a right wing - but being a Fender Punk... it's like being a Coca Cola Socialist...

Cheers.

 

[jeremy]

Re: Sweatshop Stratocaster???

fender mexico is a great operation and i think fender treats the whole town pretty well.

dont know about squires. a friend of mine who is fairly high in the guitar center echelon took a tour of a chinese factory and said it was pretty bad

 

[ErikH]

Re: Sweatshop Stratocaster???

The Chinese, Indonesian and Korean Squires aren't even built in a Fender owned plant. They're built by Cort or Samick or the like. Fender has 3 manufacturing facilities - Corona, CA; Ensenada, Mexico and one in Japan. It's my understanding that the Fender Japan facility runs independently from Fender USA but is still under the FMIC umbrella.

 

[Fender_Punk]

Re: Sweatshop Stratocaster???

but being a Fender Punk... it's like being a Coca Cola Socialist...

I understand the direct contradiction in my user name. However I chose it as the two things musically related I love most, Punk rock and Fender guitars. I'm trying to dig up this info so I'll know next time I go out to buy a guitar if any imports weren't "ethically made" (aka made in a sweat shop or using slave labour). I'd rather pay $1,000 for a USA Fender, made by people receiving decent pay, than $200 for an Epiphone Special made in China by those making 20 cents a day.

As for Coca-Cola, I could go into my hate of Coke, or start reciting from my copy of the Communist Manifesto (yes I have one, no I'm NOT communist) but that'd be political and I shall respect the wishes of the moderators.

 

[jeremy]

Re: Sweatshop Stratocaster???

quite wise