Teach me about tuners

[PFDarkside]

Let's make this the Tuning Machine 101 thread.

Assume one knows nothing about tuning machines, what are the basics? Locking vs. standard and benefits either way? What was standard on classic guitars... Brands? Schaller, Gotoh, Kluson, Ping, Spertzel, Grover, Planet Waves, other?

Do they all make all the classic styles now? Do they all make tuners of all quality and price levels? (Are the Gotoh's on my MIM Jazz Bass different than Gotoh's on an American guitar? Does Schaller make modern Kluson style tuners?)

At what level does it make sense to replace tuning machines on a guitar, and at what point do you see benefits over stock?

 

[Zarg]

Re: Teach me about tuners

Let's make this the Tuning Machine 101 thread.

Assume one knows nothing about tuning machines, what are the basics? Locking vs. standard and benefits either way? What was standard on classic guitars... Brands? Schaller, Gotoh, Kluson, Ping, Spertzel, Grover, Planet Waves, other?

Do they all make all the classic styles now? Do they all make tuners of all quality and price levels? (Are the Gotoh's on my MIM Jazz Bass different than Gotoh's on an American guitar? Does Schaller make modern Kluson style tuners?)

At what level does it make sense to replace tuning machines on a guitar, and at what point do you see benefits over stock?

I'd only upgrade my tuners if they don't hold the tune properly. My epi's both have Grovers, which I think are very good tuners. locking tuners are a mod you see a lot, It's pretty cool to have the strings locked in place, so they can't go out tune... but I never had trouble with good, regular tuners like grovers/gotohs

 

[Brandenburg]

Re: Teach me about tuners

I have these tuners on my strat and im really impressed with them.. especially since A) the price and B) china

http://www.guitarfetish.com/Now-STA...le-tuners-Sperzel-Style-Lock-Black_p_519.html

seriously thinking about changing my jackson DK-2 over to these. YES.. I know.. having locking tuners with a locking nut is redundant, but they have a really smooth/firm action.. Much smoother than the stock jackson tuners

 

[Johnny the Kid]

Re: Teach me about tuners

Locking tuners are nice is you want quick string changes and the same tuning stability as standard tuners that have had the string properly wrapped around them. Grovers and Grover styles are pretty much stock on Epiphones and Gibsons. They're always really smooth and tune well. So if you get a $300 Epiphone and find that the guitar does go out of tune easily, you're probably going to want to invest in a set of tuners (the most I've spent is $50 on a set).

If you're playing a Squire Strat that's not holding tune properly, it may be a number of issues, but the tuners are mostly likely the culprit assuming that you haven't messed with the bridge and action yet. Yeah you can get tuners of all kinds of quality at all levels, but as with anything, you're more likely to find a lemon the lower down the price ranges you go. That being said, a decent set of Chinese tuners at $35 will still be pretty good quality compared to those at the $60 plus price points.

As Zarg says, only upgrade your tuners if they are not holding tunings very well. If however, you tune a string and it immediately goes out of tune, it's not necessarily the tuner, but the string itself at which point you would change strings.

What Grover calls keystone buttons (also known as tulips) are obviously the best looking tuners by far and if you're playing a Gibson style guitar, you want those on your headstock.

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: Teach me about tuners

Gear ratio matters. I would assert >12:1 is necessary due to the accuracy, 14:1 or higher is more ideal though string changes take more winding. Turning should be tight with no play.

 

[Zarg]

Re: Teach me about tuners

Locking tuners are nice is you want quick string changes and the same tuning stability as standard tuners that have had the string properly wrapped around them. Grovers and Grover styles are pretty much stock on Epiphones and Gibsons. They're always really smooth and tune well. So if you get a $300 Epiphone and find that the guitar does go out of tune easily, you're probably going to want to invest in a set of tuners (the most I've spent is $50 on a set).

my 2003 Epiphone came with "Jinho" tuners... anyone know anything about them? they look like grovers but didn't feel quite as good. My 2004 has real grovers on it, so I swapped them, now my black one, the one that feels way better and plays better by a huge step has the genuine grovers... those "fake" ones aren't terrible either though, just go out of tune a little bit every now and then, don't need that on my main guitar.

 

[Darg1911]

Re: Teach me about tuners

Graphtech Ratio's are what I'd really like to try on something one day ... when I have $100 to burn. Which means, it's probably not going to happen. Godin uses them now on some of their more expensive guitars. They have mounting plates available as well, which I think cover up existing screw holes from the old machines.

http://www.graphtech.com/products/brands/ratio

 

[ehdwuld]

Re: Teach me about tuners

I like the locking tuners on my guitars just because it makes string changes so much easier
Put them on my acoustics as well

I posted a thread about the Grover Tuners on my Martin
There should be one on the pings on my MIM strat
As well as the Carvin branded Sperzel tuners on my Ibanez
My girl just ordered Kluson Style Locking Tuners for my Epiphone
I'll post a thread with picks of those when they arrive
They are top lockers . And I will get more into detail later

I prefer to match the style of the existing tuners but just add the locking feature

There are versions for every style save bass tuners. Should I find those I will swap those as well

 

[PFDarkside]

Re: Teach me about tuners

I remember that thread about the Martin, I was impressed how stock it looked!
I wonder if someone does a Gotoh style Martin vintage open back tuner.

In all honesty, I have no issues with any of my tuners except one, the Vintage Modified Jazz Bass. My MIM Jazz with Gotohs is rock solid, it stays in tune amazingly well. The Squier drifts a bit. All the guitars are good, even the Vintage style Fenders except the Epiphone. But that guitar is 20 years old and the cheapies are starting to wear out....

 

[dystrust]

Re: Teach me about tuners

I have these tuners on my strat and im really impressed with them.. especially since A) the price and B) china

http://www.guitarfetish.com/Now-STA...le-tuners-Sperzel-Style-Lock-Black_p_519.html

seriously thinking about changing my jackson DK-2 over to these. YES.. I know.. having locking tuners with a locking nut is redundant, but they have a really smooth/firm action.. Much smoother than the stock jackson tuners

my 2003 Epiphone came with "Jinho" tuners... anyone know anything about them? they look like grovers but didn't feel quite as good. My 2004 has real grovers on it, so I swapped them, now my black one, the one that feels way better and plays better by a huge step has the genuine grovers... those "fake" ones aren't terrible either though, just go out of tune a little bit every now and then, don't need that on my main guitar.

My Spector Rebop came with a set of those tuning machines. AFAIK they're Korean-made Gotoh copies and are decent, but nothing special. I'll be installing a set of real Gotoh GB7s with an Xtender key shortly. Grovers used to be decent tuners, but since they moved production to China, they've REALLY gone down hill. These days I swear by Gotoh tuning machines for the most part.

 

[Mincer]

Re: Teach me about tuners

I dig locking tuners for the easy string changes. I don't think they are really any more stable than a well-wrapped regular tuner, but they save time, so I love them. I also have 40:1 tuners on my Steinberger, which uses double-ball strings. You stick the strings in 2 slots, and about 2 turns later, they are in tune, but you get an amazing degree of fine-tuning.

 

[PFDarkside]

Re: Teach me about tuners

Are double ball end strings a standardized length?

 

[dystrust]

Re: Teach me about tuners

I have these tuners on my strat and im really impressed with them.. especially since A) the price and B) china

http://www.guitarfetish.com/Now-STA...le-tuners-Sperzel-Style-Lock-Black_p_519.html

seriously thinking about changing my jackson DK-2 over to these. YES.. I know.. having locking tuners with a locking nut is redundant, but they have a really smooth/firm action.. Much smoother than the stock jackson tuners

I meant to say in my previous post that my first Telecaster had a set of those when I bought it and they were junk. The tuners worked OK, but the locking mechanism only worked on 4 of the 6 tuners. Definitely seems to be a case of you get what you pay for / buyer beware.

 

[Brandenburg]

Re: Teach me about tuners

I meant to say in my previous post that my first Telecaster had a set of those when I bought it and they were junk. The tuners worked OK, but the locking mechanism only worked on 4 of the 6 tuners. Definitely seems to be a case of you get what you pay for / buyer beware.

well.. mine work flawlessly and work better than those POS fender/jackson tuners that come stock on jacksons

been nothing but impressed with it.. same with the "import" V bridge w/ brass block from GF.... i like guitar fetishes hardware. well atleast the stuff i have used. Im a bit leary about their switches,pots,etc so i get those from allparts.. GF is a great place to buy parts for budget guitars IMO and will definately be an upgrade from stock in most cases.. Its stupid to by real high quality/expensive parts for a cheap/budget guitar

 

[Silence Kid]

Re: Teach me about tuners

Locking tuners as has been stated won't "lock your tuning" in any way, they just stop the string end from slipping out and will permit fewer wraps around the post.

 

[Johnny the Kid]

Re: Teach me about tuners

Locking tuners as has been stated won't "lock your tuning" in any way, they just stop the string end from slipping out and will permit fewer wraps around the post.

Yeah there's a huge misconception that if you have a locking nut, locking tuners are useless, but if you want quick string changes, they're better. That being said, I find doing a proper string change to be a therapeutic process. I find working on my guitars in general to be therapeutic.

 

[Silence Kid]

Re: Teach me about tuners

Yeah there's a huge misconception that if you have a locking nut, locking tuners are useless, but if you want quick string changes, they're better. That being said, I find doing a proper string change to be a therapeutic process. I find working on my guitars in general to be therapeutic.

Problematic, it's too therapeutic for me and gets in the way of actually playing the things lol. I had Spertzel lockers on my Telecaster once; I miss the ease of string changes, and they were staggered, which was nice. Never made sense to me when people used locking tuners on a Floyd guitar with a regular nut; I guess those people don't slack strings. Maybe it works better with a tilt-back headstock...

 

[Johnny the Kid]

Re: Teach me about tuners

Problematic, it's too therapeutic for me and gets in the way of actually playing the things lol. I had Spertzel lockers on my Telecaster once; I miss the ease of string changes, and they were staggered, which was nice. Never made sense to me when people used locking tuners on a Floyd guitar with a regular nut; I guess those people don't slack strings. Maybe it works better with a tilt-back headstock...

It's nice to just sit down and do something fairly mindless like that for 10-15 minutes.

 

[PFDarkside]

Re: Teach me about tuners

Yeah there's a huge misconception that if you have a locking nut, locking tuners are useless, but if you want quick string changes, they're better. That being said, I find doing a proper string change to be a therapeutic process. I find working on my guitars in general to be therapeutic.

Before my son was born I felt literally the same way. Now I've gone to Elixirs to lengthen time between string changes. I've got Schaller locking tuners on my Deluxe Strat Plus, so I'm familiar.... I'm kind of curious about the Fender vintage style locking tuners, as I have them on 4 guitars. I kind of like them though.

 

[tc]

Re: Teach me about tuners

I feel it really pays off to make sure that anything that touches the string is high quality. I love Fender/Kluson style Gotoh tuners. Probably the best of their kind. The split shaft is awesome because they get rid of the sharp string end, and the miniature bushings (compared to other styles of tuners, not other interpretations of the same tuner) they require are really aesthetically pleasing. I like precise ratios over faster tuning too. When you string up, just use a winder. When you're tuning, the precision really pays off.

As for tuning machine 101 class, the things I can think of that matter are:

Lubrication: modern sealed tuners don't require any, but vintage Kluson style tuners aren't sealed and have a small hole in the back for lubrication. Most people who take their vintage Fenders seriously have told me that about once every ten years you should lubricate the tuners.

Locking vs. non-locking: it makes no difference while playing. The only difference is when changing strings. I like regular better though, always favored lightweight tuners with very little mass. Probably why I always disliked the heavier standard Grover style tuners.

Standard on classic guitars:

A lot of guitars from the 40s and 60s used Kluson brand tuners, mostly Kluson Deluxe closed back tuners with different tips, tulips and round metal tips, for example. A lot of people associate Gibson with Grover but that's mostly an aftermarket thing. Throughout the 50s Fenders and Gibsons used Kluson tuners with a "Kluson Deluxe" vertical stamp and a patent number stamp (earlier ones have the applied for stamp, later models have the awarded patent number). Some years have one marking, some have the other, some have both. There's other variations like a second tuning post hole at the bottom of the gear cover as well.

Mid 60s onwards the tuners started having two "Kluson Deluxe" vertical stamps and early 70s Gibson changed that stamp over to "Gibson Deluxe", but they were still Kluson tuners. Fender, on the other hand, went over to a different tuner with an "F" stamped on the back. Don't know if they were also made by Kluson.

Mid 70s Kluson went out of business and WD bought the name a couple of decades later. Yes, that means that the Klusons you can buy today are not the same tuners. I don't think I've ever used modern Kluson branded tuners. I guess I'll have to try them out sometime, but Gotoh makes amazing ones. Fender American Vintage, Fender Custom Shop and Gibson Historic use Gotoh. The issue with trying out all the different Kluson Deluxe style tuners nowadays is that they don't necessarily have the same bushing or hole size, so as long as you have a good one, might as well keep it.