The elusive 10K PAF Disscusions Open (Scott)

[JacksonMIA]

Re: The elusive 10K PAF Disscusions Open (Scott)

Jeff, I'm not going to try to put words in Evan's mouth, but if I were to guess, I would say that the "threat" or "threatening" means not that there's any animosity, but that he knows most of the people won't make good on it - making them idle threats. I would seriously be surprised if everyone who has been begging for a 10K PAF will buy one from someone else, just as I seriously doubt ALL of them would buy one if SD offered it as a regular production item.

Why is anybody answering at all?? Are you seriously going to say that the people on this message board are responsible for wasting his time and SD's money??

Unreal.....it's amazing how a board of SD enthusiasts are suddenly running the company into the ground. Nobody is making any of the higher ups at SD read the posts here whether they be informative or nonsensical.

Evan started a thread about another possible pickup line as a marketing test to see what kind of interest might be out there. People were hijacking it left and right. He NEEDED to read that thread to find out if those pickups would be feasable (along with other information and tests).

 

[ranalli]

Re: The elusive 10K PAF Disscusions Open (Scott)

On another subject, I know this board is the Duncan board and the moderators can do what they want but, I was actually a bit offended by the threat to ban folks for talking about a pickup that alot of us would love to see in production! Thats just my personal feeling on the issue. For a day or two it made me think about selling all of my Duncans, boycotting them, and buying Dimarzios or something else. I am "maybe" feeling a bit better now though???????? On to another issue......

Bingo....you hit the nail on the head with this post. If they want to sell the 10K or not...doesn't really bother me a whole lot as the Duncans filling my guitars now suit me well for the time being. Would be nice but it's certainly their business and their call. They've run a good business so far for the most part and I respect that. I don't mind the decision not to produce it.

However, threatening to ban people on a message board over discussion of it?? What is that all about?? This board may not represent even 1% of SD's customers but even still....that's just uncalled for and I can tell you if that nonsense keeps up, I DEFINITELY won't be buying SD in the future.


Ignore the discussion/requests here....fine....that's completely cool and really the smart thing to do if there are hot topics. But threatening to ban enthusiasts of the product is just ridiculous. There was no name calling, no insults, and nobody getting worked up over this. The "problem" started with the sensitivity towards the subject.


On the subject of the Screamin Demon being a 10K pickup, let me just say that it's an awesome pickup and a very original sounding one at that. Very under-rated IMO. It's as unique as the JB IMO....just not as popular. It does have a PAF "flavor" to it, but I can see why some might not like it because of it's hi-fi quality. But don't get me wrong.....it's a great pickup if you're looking for a modern interpretation of the PAF sound. It's exactly as they described it with bite on the top end and a nice growl in the lower mids...very nice actually.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: The elusive 10K PAF Disscusions Open (Scott)

So you think you need a 10k PAF?
Is this topic is evidence of players placing improper emphasis on the pickups?

No, it's not. If it is, then the wide variety of designs by Seymour himself (for which we are all grateful, this thread notwithstanding) places an improper emphasis on pickups.

If you think you need a 10K PAF, the reality may truly be that it's a different amp that you really need? or a booster pedal will get you where you need to go.

No, it's a new tone we're looking for. PAF clarity and top end sweetness with modern punch. It can be and has been done by other makers.

If you already have PAF pickup that you like, tonally, but it doesn't sound as radical as you want, then the signal of that pickup only needs to be boosted, right?

No -- see above.

 

[flank]

Re: The elusive 10K PAF Disscusions Open (Scott)

my take on this is from a unbiased position, since i dont care either way since i dont want a 10k PAF. The thing for me is, it does seem that there is a demand for this type of pickup, at least from my observations of internet readin, magazine reading etc...though, i must be wrong here since Evan said/thinks that it is not enough to turn it into a production pickup. But then again, i dont see (again, from my personal perspective) how a pickup such as the Stag Mag could be in higher demand than a 10K PAF, but i could just be dead wrong i guess. Seems to me that the Stag Mag is really a specialty pickup and that the 10K PAF would appeal more to the general guitar playing crowd. Again, maybe im just wrong. Also, while i agree and understand when Evan says it would take alot of work to get this pickup into production, if it already exists, ie SDeco, then the specs/materials/machinery exists to make it, so complete fabrication of a new pickup would not be needed according to logic

but maybe, how about the Screamin Demon with an A2 mag to reduce high end?

just thinkin out loud

 

[Scott_F]

Re: The elusive 10K PAF Disscusions Open (Scott)

I guess the part of all this misunderstanding that I can't comprehend is why after the "definitive" company line had been voiced people continue to complain and the start hijacking other threads?

I think the point was simply if you choose to keep this up, do it somewhere else. There is a limit to anyone's patience. I went back and read as many references to 10K threads. Some had been deleted, some were still there, but things were getting out of hand.

So, who's in with Theodie & me on a group purchase?

 

[Scott_F]

Re: The elusive 10K PAF Disscusions Open (Scott)

And, when you look at who is doing most of the whining, it's a rather small handfull, like one handfull.

 

[JeffB]

Re: The elusive 10K PAF Disscusions Open (Scott)

Jeff, I'm not going to try to put words in Evan's mouth, but if I were to guess, I would say that the "threat" or "threatening" means not that there's any animosity, but that he knows most of the people won't make good on it - making them idle threats.

Someone else mentioned this viewpoint to me as well. Perhaps you both are right. I did take offense to the term, as "threat" implies some sort of bad intent, which I in no way, shape ,or form intended by my comments (nor do now).

Anyhoo...I've made my points, let others take the reigns now..It really *isn't* a big deal to me. I'll buy what I need for now elsewhere, and when I need a Duncan , I'll buy that too! I just cannot understand Duncan's logic/stance on this particular issue. Perhaps Scott is correct in that they feel the market is well covered by the rest, and also may feel that (e.g) Signature pickups with their inherent "easy" marketing are the direction to pursue for expansion of the product line.

:shrug:

 

[JeffB]

Re: The elusive 10K PAF Disscusions Open (Scott)

And, when you look at who is doing most of the whining, it's a rather small handfull, like one handfull.

Thanks

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: The elusive 10K PAF Disscusions Open (Scott)

Jeff, I'm not going to try to put words in Evan's mouth, but if I were to guess, I would say that the "threat" or "threatening" means not that there's any animosity, but that he knows most of the people won't make good on it - making them idle threats. I would seriously be surprised if everyone who has been begging for a 10K PAF will buy one from someone else, just as I seriously doubt ALL of them would buy one if SD offered it as a regular production item.

I already did. Do a search for "Jon Moore". I have an 11.2k mismatch (hybrid-style) already which I described in great detail in here more than once. I also have a 9.5k on the way, and ironically enough it is a Seth Lover that I sent to the guy to have him rewind it.

But none of that has anything to do with Duncan refusing to make one, at least as far as this latest controversy is concerned. I just knew Duncan didn't make this sort of thing, no biggy, then I stumbled across this guy at the LP Forum, the price was right and the rest is history. (Also have a wonderful 7.6k from him in the neck of the 355 but that doesn't count for the purposes of this discussion.)

The Seth Lover rewind could be interpreted as a symbolic protest or "in your face" move on my part but it's not intended that way. It just seemed like a good idea on its own merits at the time -- it was a 7.2k neck Seth which was actually a very fine pickup but just not right for any of the guitars I have at the moment. I was thinking of selling it but figured, what the hey?

Evan started a thread about another possible pickup line as a marketing test to see what kind of interest might be out there. People were hijacking it left and right. He NEEDED to read that thread to find out if those pickups would be feasable (along with other information and tests).

I think Evan's intentions were good (hey, I've never known them to be "bad") in throwing out the glow-in-the-dark bobbin idea to us. I think it was in part to show us that they do listen to us and genuinely want our opinions -- which as a general proposition very few, if any, of us dispute to begin with. And I'll go on record right here that I'm very appreciative of that fact, this controversy notwithstanding.

But needless to say, it kinda backfired. He's gotta look at it from our point of view. We feel like we were stiff-armed on something we really want (not so much the refusal itself as the unpleasantness the refusal came with), then semi-offered an aesthetic gimmick none of us remembers anyone asking for. And this after the explanation about how time-consuming and expensive it is to test and market a new product for something we DO want and how you can't just up and make whatever you want.

Probably there's more to it than that, maybe they've already test-marketed/focus-grouped it and there appears to be a big demand for glowing pickups and this has been in the works for some time. If so, then they'd be fools NOT to put these new bobbins out.

But at the moment, it gave us a case of whiplash.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: The elusive 10K PAF Disscusions Open (Scott)

Thanks

And I thought he meant me.

 

[Scott_F]

Re: The elusive 10K PAF Disscusions Open (Scott)

I don't have all the answers, that's for sure. Not trying to pick on you specifically Jeff.

In the end, this could have probably been handled different (better?) on all sides.

The ellusive 10K PAF exists, it just costs twice as much as anyone wants to pay. It is all about the money. It costs a buttload of money to take a CShop pup and turn it mainstream. Marketing, distribution, etc. They have a spreadsheet that shows how many they have to sell just to break even. That number is considerable.

So, it was determined that it wasn't worth the money needed to take it mainstream. You users have clearly stated that it is not worth 2x as much as a S. Demon perhaps.

Both sides have voted with their wallets. Time to shake hands and agree to disagree. But, some can't seem to do that and we all find ourselves with a few hurt feelings. Time to shake hands again perhaps.

(typing one-handed sucks, but you guys are worth it!)

 

[zionstrat]

Marketing challange

Marketing challange

Some of you may have caught my marketing input in the recent Dimarzio thread, and hopefully this hasn't turned you entirely away from the art But at the risk of being a little redundant I'd like to expand the discussion a wee bit.

I discussed the business plan and the marketing requirements documents that make technology work in the other posts, so I'll move onto some of the key components:

Pains-
What is it that the user needs? This is not a technology issue, this is a somewhat quantifiable desire- Louder, thicker, More like Brian May, or less expensive are all answers that you might see here- This is the first step, and frankly I haven't seen a lot of this in the discussion.

Persona and demographics-
Who are the people who have the pains described above? 16 yr olds, or technologists? What do they read? Where do they shop? What's the household income?

Feature/Functionality- These are really the chicken parts within 'finger licking good'- This is a list of things that might solve the users pains, but note that it is the job of R&D to figure out the underlying technology- Maybe 10k is the answer, or maybe laser leveled plutonium powered gizmos will solve the problem even better-

Development matrix-
This is where you list out the strength of a feature to solve a pain and multiply by the development effort required and used to determine which feature/functionality is crucial- So florescent bobbins may get a 2 for need, but a 9 for ease of development for a score of 18- While spacing for Trems, non-trems and electric zithers might get you a 7 on the need scale but a 1 on development for a score of 7- So green bobbins wins this round..

Differentiation-
What is it that the user gets that they can't get elsewhere and what is the value of that benefit?

Price curve-
With set feature functionality offered to a specific targeted user, how many do you project to sell at specific price points?

Risk Benefits-
Combine all of this together and​

what do you get?

What's my point? On the face of this, it sounds like a very small number of technologists are asking for technology as opposed to defining pains, it sounds like they are few in number and haven't made a case for broader needs, it sounds like there are alternatives within SD and DMZ lines, etc...

But prove me wrong! Here's my challenge:

What you (and I) are lacking is real data- If you really want this, and you really want SD to pay attention, do this right! Start by filling in as much of the above as you can get based on educated guesses.

It would take a day or two to define a survey.

Come up with a plan to get the survey into the hands of a significant number of potential users across representative regions. Note that I did not define significant

If you really did a good grassroots survey, I bet SD would love to have it- I bet they would be willing to help define the demographics that they have tied into previous research, and if you take this far enough, I bet that Evan would be willing to apply the magic of statistics to help you determine how many response and the regional coverage you will need to properly represent the population.

Now that I've outlined the work it takes and you know how big SD is, does anyone want to step up and get to work?

Cheers

 

[ErikH]

Re: The elusive 10K PAF Disscusions Open (Scott)

But needless to say, it kinda backfired. He's gotta look at it from our point of view. We feel like we were stiff-armed on something we really want (not so much the refusal itself as the unpleasantness the refusal came with), then semi-offered an aesthetic gimmick none of us remembers anyone asking for. And this after the explanation about how time-consuming and expensive it is to test and market a new product for something we DO want and how you can't just up and make whatever you want.

Probably there's more to it than that, maybe they've already test-marketed/focus-grouped it and there appears to be a big demand for glowing pickups and this has been in the works for some time. If so, then they'd be fools NOT to put these new bobbins out.

But at the moment, it gave us a case of whiplash.

You must not have seen the post where Evan said the EXTERNAL SUPPLIER OFFERED to pour some GID bobbins for them. It took seconds for the SD purchaser to say "yay" or "nay". There was no R&D involved, there was minimal if any additional cost involved. There's didn't have to be. It was a simple yes/no proposal. So they had a few bobbins made to test the waters with minimal cost to make the full pickup because they wound them to specs of existing pickups. Just sub in a GID for a black bobbin on the assembly line and there ya go, no problem. Easy.

Starting from the ground up for a new pickup and having a small group to test it on different guitars, amps, use different gauge wires, magents, etc., etc., all to come to an acceptable solution requires man hours (somebody has to pay them) and supplies (somebody has to purchase them). And in the end, who knows if it's going to take off or not.

We are a small footprint in the HUGE and I mean HUGE customer base out there. Yes, I'm pretty confident our opinions mean a lot to the SD Company and I'm sure SD has heard the word about this out here. But let's not forget, they do things in the best interest of the company, not in the best interest of us. We're not the only customers.

If you feel insulted or stabbed in the back or whiplashed about the GID thread, read my first paragraph again.

-Out.

 

[Zerberus]

Re: The elusive 10K PAF Disscusions Open (Scott)

Then why keep answering them? Just ignore us and let us punch ourselves out.

If the commotion had not spread to all sorts of totally unrelated threads, that would have been an option... but by corrupting other threads, the "Militia" or whatever they wanna call themselves were causing general disarray and effectively also helping questions not be answered by that, both directly and indirectly....

THAT is cause for a topic ban on almost any form.

Many of you are intertwining Forum etiquette (of which you yourselves showed pitifully little) and the resulting, standard administrative decisions (Asking not to hijack threads and eventually banning the discusion) with some sort of statement....

The statement that was made (if you feel you MUST interpret one into the banning):This forum is here for ALL of the SD customers and interested parties, as well as people that just come to hang around.... Especially the Pickup lounge is intended more as a helpful resource than anything else. It is NOT a playground for a handful of fetischists to do as they please, when they please, with a total disregard for etiquette and any sort of manners. But that´s exactly what you guys were starting to turn it into, whether YOU feel that way or not...

the Adminiistration and other users DID feel that way, so measures were taken to alleviate it... starting w/ the topic ban, which has been semi-lifted.

It´s not about banning users for Ideas, or for "threats"... it´s about the majority starting to become pissed because the minority is starting to trample on everything..... We´re talking about 5, maybe 10 tops, pissing on the fact that there are over 5k other users on thios forum that DON`T necessarily want to read about the 10k PAF that doesn´t exist and how much that sucks in every second thread.... Most people understand an Idea the first time

Analogy: Get 10 smokers and walk through all sorts of pubs and bars In NYC or another "smoke free" place...light up 2 or 3 in every one, totally disregarding the No smoking sign and the owner politely asking you to stop... Oh, and blow your smoke in everyones face that you see....

Now, do you REALLY think people are gonna do nothing and watch that just happen over an extended period? NO... they´ll either start becoming aggressive towards the smokers, to the point to throwing them out horizontally, or they´ll search for places where the smokers aren´t if that doesn´t work... In one situation the business owner loses one patron, in the other he loses half his regulars.... Which do you think he´s gonna choose?

Is this all really that hard to comprehend? You guys just plain and simple went overboard, to the point where people like myself that actually LIKED the idea were starting to get annoyed by it´s omnipresence... If I tell you every 2 minutes to fill the gas tank, even though the meter says 75%, are you gonna actually do it or at some point tell me to STFU and / or kick me out of your car? What if I start doing it every minute after half an hour? :eek13:

That said, I´d like to try one myself some day... And I´ll do what the market dictates, either be happy with what ´s available, or go custom...

 

[ErikH]

Re: The elusive 10K PAF Disscusions Open (Scott)

Zerb, bro, where was that post last week? Very well said.

 

[Scott_F]

Re: The elusive 10K PAF Disscusions Open (Scott)

Musicians are a passionate bunch. Thats why this place is fun for me. I truly believe NO ONE meant any harm. Just passion for tone.

 

[JeffB]

Re: The elusive 10K PAF Disscusions Open (Scott)

I'll admit I read very few threads here on the forum..especially OT...but I'm not sure where all the taking over of other threads took place? I did get a little into it at the beginning of the GID thread...and then Evan put me in my place

Other than that I can only remember the intial thread where Evan said "no-go"...and the OT post that got moved over here and then was closed/topic "banned"? I didn't see any f this on the other pup related threads I was reading other than a "sneaky" (usually in jest) comment here and there...far from what I'd call obtrusive.

But like I said, I don't read a ton of threads ....

 

[Guitar Toad]

Re: The elusive 10K PAF Disscusions Open (Scott)

No, it's not. If it is, then the wide variety of designs by Seymour himself (for which we are all grateful, this thread notwithstanding) places an improper emphasis on pickups.



No, it's a new tone we're looking for. PAF clarity and top end sweetness with modern punch. It can be and has been done by other makers.



No -- see above.

:blackeye: :dunno:

Edit: Thanks for clearing that up for me Z.

 

[ranalli]

Re: The elusive 10K PAF Disscusions Open (Scott)

These threads were taking over the forum??

Oh brother....talk about creating drama that isn't there. Like I said before, people take this forum way to seriously....it's a discussion forum....not a breeding ground for Nazi movements. Nobody was called names, the thread wasn't even hijacked...there was just a few unhappy comments, etc, etc..


I do find it funny, however, that people are always up in arms on this forum about Dimarzio's unethical patents.....but when a company threatens to ban it's own avid customers from a discussion board for pretty much no reason.....well that's completely OK.


That being said, in pickup news, I'm ordering another Custom soon....I'm stoked to try this out in this brighter guitar I have

 

[TheArchitect]

Re: The elusive 10K PAF Disscusions Open (Scott)

I guess the part of all this misunderstanding that I can't comprehend is why after the "definitive" company line had been voiced people continue to complain and the start hijacking other threads?

I think the point was simply if you choose to keep this up, do it somewhere else. There is a limit to anyone's patience. I went back and read as many references to 10K threads. Some had been deleted, some were still there, but things were getting out of hand.

So, who's in with Theodie & me on a group purchase?

I really think the Glow in the dark thing is what lit the fuse. To even suggest what I think was a very bad idea after the eulogy/business lesson on the costs of developing any product, frankly chapped my ass. Whether they make a 10k ever or not is neither here nor there. The gist I got was that they felt there was no market for a 10k model. So be it. But, to turn around and ask about glow in the dark bobbins is a pretty strong insinuation that they think there is a market for that. It absolutely seemed as if we were fed a story to shut us up about the 10k and that story was exposed as a load in my opinion by then offering us glow in the dark anything as a legitimate product idea.

Beyond that threatening expulsion is going to do anything but pour fuel on the fire. Being thrown off an internet chat room is no threat at all and only pisses people of more. Its great that Evan is here, but when those fires start he needs to not get involved and let the other admins handle it. No explanation was going to persuade anyone of anything and his presence as an SD employee is only inviting more people to pile on. And they did....