The elusive 10K PAF Disscusions Open (Scott)

[Scott_F]

Re: The elusive 10K PAF Disscusions Open (Scott)

The subject was beat to death. The subject was asked to be dropped. The topic was temporarily banned. This is Seymours living room. Enough was enough.

Like I have clearly stated, the things could have been handled better on both frustrated sides. I for one am asking you guys for a little slack. The SD company's forum track record has been exemplary for years.

If you still feel strongly that you are being abused and persecuted, I apologize on behalf of the entire SD Company (for whom I don't even work!) and the entire Forum.

If you can't live with my apology, then that is too bad and you'll probably ride off into the sunset to another guitar-related messaga board. Again, we are all passionate musicians here.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: The elusive 10K PAF Disscusions Open (Scott)

You must not have seen the post where Evan said the EXTERNAL SUPPLIER OFFERED to pour some GID bobbins for them. It took seconds for the SD purchaser to say "yay" or "nay". There was no R&D involved, there was minimal if any additional cost involved. There's didn't have to be. It was a simple yes/no proposal. So they had a few bobbins made to test the waters with minimal cost to make the full pickup because they wound them to specs of existing pickups. Just sub in a GID for a black bobbin on the assembly line and there ya go, no problem. Easy.

Starting from the ground up for a new pickup and having a small group to test it on different guitars, amps, use different gauge wires, magents, etc., etc., all to come to an acceptable solution requires man hours (somebody has to pay them) and supplies (somebody has to purchase them). And in the end, who knows if it's going to take off or not.

We are a small footprint in the HUGE and I mean HUGE customer base out there. Yes, I'm pretty confident our opinions mean a lot to the SD Company and I'm sure SD has heard the word about this out here. But let's not forget, they do things in the best interest of the company, not in the best interest of us. We're not the only customers.

If you feel insulted or stabbed in the back or whiplashed about the GID thread, read my first paragraph again.

-Out.

Before I go any further, I hope none of what I've said in here counts against me for a ban, since this thread is intended more or less as a 10k free fire zone, within the bounds of civil discussion of course.

I didn't feel or say I felt insulted or stabbed in the back by the GID thread, only whiplashed, as in confused and/or frustrated. Please don't put words in my mouth.

Why do the rules of marketing and R&D apply to the mid-output pickup but suddenly don't when it comes to the GID bobbin? We were told you can't just make what you want because you have to put a lot of thought and time and money into testing and marketing a new product (understood) and all of a sudden they're running something up the flagpole just because a supplier threw an idea at them out of the blue?

If we're just a tiny footprint on the overall market as you say (true) and our opinion is therefore more or less irrelevant on overwound vintage, why does our opinion matter any more about GID bobbins? You don't see the apparent contradiction?

 

[Scott_F]

Re: The elusive 10K PAF Disscusions Open (Scott)

I really think the Glow in the dark thing is what lit the fuse. To even suggest what I think was a very bad idea after the eulogy/business lesson on the costs of developing any product, frankly chapped my ass. Whether they make a 10k ever or not is neither here nor there. The gist I got was that they felt there was no market for a 10k model. So be it. But, to turn around and ask about glow in the dark bobbins is a pretty strong insinuation that they think there is a market for that. It absolutely seemed as if we were fed a story to shut us up about the 10k and that story was exposed as a load in my opinion by then offering us glow in the dark anything as a legitimate product idea.

Beyond that threatening expulsion is going to do anything but pour fuel on the fire. Being thrown off an internet chat room is no threat at all and only pisses people of more. Its great that Evan is here, but when those fires start he needs to not get involved and let the other admins handle it. No explanation was going to persuade anyone of anything and his presence as an SD employee is only inviting more people to pile on. And they did....

You and I see eye to eye on most stuff. The GID thread was simply a case of bad timing if you ask me. Thanks for the earlier message. I do not disagree with anything you are saying.

 

[Scott_F]

Re: The elusive 10K PAF Disscusions Open (Scott)

Before I go any further, I hope none of what I've said in here counts against me for a ban, since this thread is intended more or less as a 10k free fire zone, within the bounds of civil discussion of course.

I didn't feel or say I felt insulted or stabbed in the back by the GID thread, only whiplashed, as in confused and/or frustrated. Please don't put words in my mouth.

Why do the rules of marketing and R&D apply to the mid-output pickup but suddenly don't when it comes to the GID bobbin? We were told you can't just make what you want because you have to put a lot of thought and time and money into testing and marketing a new product (understood) and all of a sudden they're running something up the flagpole just because a supplier threw an idea at them out of the blue?

If we're just a tiny footprint on the overall market as you say (true) and our opinion is therefore more or less irrelevant on overwound vintage, why does our opinion matter any more about GID bobbins? You don't see the apparent contradiction?

Again bad timing.

I do hope that no matter how goofy the idea (GID for god's sake? haha!), Evan still feels like throwing it out there for us to laugh at, agree with, etc. That's what makes this place cool.

 

[Zerberus]

Re: The elusive 10K PAF Disscusions Open (Scott)

These threads were taking over the forum??

Oh brother....talk about creating drama that isn't there. Like I said before, people take this forum way to seriously....it's a discussion forum....not a breeding ground for Nazi movements. Nobody was called names, the thread wasn't even hijacked...there was just a few unhappy comments, etc, etc..

Do a search for "10k PAF" "Overwound PAF" and "10-12k PAF"

Here are some of the results.....
"10k PAF"
https://forum.seymourduncan.com/search.php?searchid=271270
"Overwound PAF"
https://forum.seymourduncan.com/search.php?searchid=271272
"10-12k PAF"
https://forum.seymourduncan.com/search.php?searchid=271273

Note that 4 or 5 of those threads are semi current, and are directly asking for this pickup to be made for a cheaper price than it is (whether you think it exists or not doesn´t change the fact that it does but is just more expensive than you´d like)

The rest of the treads are threads that in part are wholly unrelated... Butr somehow it "magically" becomes a point in those as well..

This thread is the one that caused the bubble to blow up large, where you guys made Evan´s WORK hell by derailing the GID thread, multiple times, just because you wanted to piss about it and knew Evan would look at this thread.... :
https://forum.seymourduncan.com/showthread.php?t=58925&highlight="10k+PAF"

And this thread was the one that broke said bubble, when it started spilling over into other forums. And that´s the point where the topic was banned, TO PROTECT THE REST OF THE BOARD... https://forum.seymourduncan.com/showthread.php?t=59162&highlight="10-12k+PAF"

The administration was left with no choice the way I see it... what was to come next, "WTB 10k Duncan PAF" threads in the trading post? "Which amp does a 10k PAF sound good with" threads in the Guitar shop? "Which axe would you put a 10k PAF in" threads in teh guitar shop? "Optimal recording settings for a 10k PAF" threads in Tips and clips? Or would posts come up "Oh, that ESP HAm,met would sound great w/ 10k PAFS as popposed to EMGs"... when do you draw the line? Gotta draw one somewhere....

Am I exaggerating... yes, but not any more than you are.... Nazi movement, COME ON BRO, I´d think that someone with your amount of life experience would think a little less in blackj and white....

I do find it funny, however, that people are always up in arms on this forum about Dimarzio's unethical patents.....but when a company threatens to ban it's own avid customers from a discussion board for pretty much no reason.....well that's completely OK.

I suggest you read the terms of service /forum rules again...

1. Nowhere does it say that you as an SD customer are ENTITLED to be here.
2. Nowhere on your pickups does it say that a free membership to the SD UGF is included.
3. nor is there anything else giving anyone the right to be here, save Evan and SWD that pay for it.

This is a privately run internet forum. You are, when posting here, subject to any and all rules and limitations SD Pickups or the Administration wishes to impose...

Most people that have been banned here were banned becasue they were becoming a nuisance and babysitting them took up too much of the admin´s time.... again, majority rules. I see zero difference to the current situation.

Your logic regarding the banning is akin to farting in people´s face, after being told CONTINUALLY and OFTEN not to, then becoming pissy when someone finally sticks a firecracker up your ass...




NOW, can we finally get back too harping about overwound PAFS and drop the totally senseless and self explanatory discussion over who makes the rules, who enforces them, and who has to live by them or search for virtual freedom elsewhere? :beerchug:

 

[ranalli]

Re: The elusive 10K PAF Disscusions Open (Scott)

The subject was beat to death. The subject was asked to be dropped. The topic was temporarily banned. This is Seymours living room. Enough was enough.

Like I have clearly stated, the things could have been handled better on both frustrated sides. I for one am asking you guys for a little slack. The SD company's forum track record has been exemplary for years.

If you still feel strongly that you are being abused and persecuted, I apologize on behalf of the entire SD Company (for whom I don't even work!) and the entire Forum.

If you can't live with my apology, then that is too bad and you'll probably ride off into the sunset to another guitar-related messaga board. Again, we are all passionate musicians here.

No need to apologize, as I don't think anyone is really upset over this...I know I'm not. But your point is appreciated.

 

[ErikH]

Re: The elusive 10K PAF Disscusions Open (Scott)

Before I go any further, I hope none of what I've said in here counts against me for a ban, since this thread is intended more or less as a 10k free fire zone, within the bounds of civil discussion of course.

I didn't feel or say I felt insulted or stabbed in the back by the GID thread, only whiplashed, as in confused and/or frustrated. Please don't put words in my mouth.

Why do the rules of marketing and R&D apply to the mid-output pickup but suddenly don't when it comes to the GID bobbin? We were told you can't just make what you want because you have to put a lot of thought and time and money into testing and marketing a new product (understood) and all of a sudden they're running something up the flagpole just because a supplier threw an idea at them out of the blue?

If we're just a tiny footprint on the overall market as you say (true) and our opinion is therefore more or less irrelevant on overwound vintage, why does our opinion matter any more about GID bobbins? You don't see the apparent contradiction?

I'm sorry, but I didn't mean to put words in your mouth. I know what you mean, but I included the other terms because of how others have said they had felt. I meant them to be separate from your whiplash. Sorry.

You're missing the point. A guy pouring a few bobbins in GID material for an already in production pickup is a lot different than actually making a new pickup. The product is already being made. Only one facet is being added in, and that's an optional color/material for the bobbin, on any production floor pickup.

Like Scott has said, the GID thread was bad timing, but Evan values our opinions that's why he asked. It's already been explained enough why the 10k got shelved.

 

[TheArchitect]

Re: The elusive 10K PAF Disscusions Open (Scott)

You and I see eye to eye on most stuff. The GID thread was simply a case of bad timing if you ask me. Thanks for the earlier message. I do not disagree with anything you are saying.

I absolutely agree. It was entirely about bad timing. I think Evan threw it out there as a flier to see what happens but with emotions a bit raw on the other topic it blew up. Simple as that.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: The elusive 10K PAF Disscusions Open (Scott)

Again bad timing.

I do hope that no matter how goofy the idea (GID for god's sake? haha!), Evan still feels like throwing it out there for us to laugh at, agree with, etc. That's what makes this place cool.

I'm with you there -- if Evan & Co. have an idea, let's HEAR it, no matter how zany. I definitely don't want to have a chilling effect on anyone at Duncan running ideas up the flagpole because even zany is often good or at least leads to something that is.

You're right, it was just bad timing. But do keep the ideas coming, Evan.

One last request on the 10k topic, and I know it wasn't you or Evan who said this, but enough doubletalk about how all 10k winds sound alike while every 8k and 14k wind is unique. What am I talking about? That's what was heavily implied by saying the Demon covers the whole mid-output range while ignoring the dozens of other other Duncan models in the 8k and 14k ranges that everyone knows don't sound alike, and frankly that pissed me off.

 

[ranalli]

Re: The elusive 10K PAF Disscusions Open (Scott)

Do a search for "10k PAF" "Overwound PAF" and "10-12k PAF"

Here are some of the results.....
"10k PAF"
https://forum.seymourduncan.com/search.php?searchid=271270
"Overwound PAF"
https://forum.seymourduncan.com/search.php?searchid=271272
"10-12k PAF"
https://forum.seymourduncan.com/search.php?searchid=271273

Note that 4 or 5 of those threads are semi current, and are directly asking for this pickup to be made for a cheaper price than it is (whether you think it exists or not doesn´t change the fact that it does but is just more expensive than you´d like)

The rest of the treads are threads that in part are wholly unrelated... Butr somehow it "magically" becomes a point in those as well..

This thread is the one that caused the bubble to blow up large, where you guys made Evan´s WORK hell by derailing the GID thread, multiple times, just because you wanted to piss about it and knew Evan would look at this thread.... :
https://forum.seymourduncan.com/showthread.php?t=58925&highlight="10k+PAF"

And this thread was the one that broke said bubble, when it started spilling over into other forums. And that´s the point where the topic was banned, TO PROTECT THE REST OF THE BOARD... https://forum.seymourduncan.com/showthread.php?t=59162&highlight="10-12k+PAF"

The administration was left with no choice the way I see it... what was to come next, "WTB 10k Duncan PAF" threads in the trading post? "Which amp does a 10k PAF sound good with" threads in the Guitar shop? "Which axe would you put a 10k PAF in" threads in teh guitar shop? "Optimal recording settings for a 10k PAF" threads in Tips and clips? Or would posts come up "Oh, that ESP HAm,met would sound great w/ 10k PAFS as popposed to EMGs"... when do you draw the line? Gotta draw one somewhere....

Am I exaggerating... yes, but not any more than you are.... Nazi movement, COME ON BRO, I´d think that someone with your amount of life experience would think a little less in blackj and white....



I suggest you read the terms of service /forum rules again...

1. Nowhere does it say that you as an SD customer are ENTITLED to be here.
2. Nowhere on your pickups does it say that a free membership to the SD UGF is included.
3. nor is there anything else giving anyone the right to be here, save Evan and SWD that pay for it.

This is a privately run internet forum. You are, when posting here, subject to any and all rules and limitations SD Pickups or the Administration wishes to impose...

Most people that have been banned here were banned becasue they were becoming a nuisance and babysitting them took up too much of the admin´s time.... again, majority rules. I see zero difference to the current situation.

Your logic regarding the banning is akin to farting in people´s face, after being told CONTINUALLY and OFTEN not to, then becoming pissy when someone finally sticks a firecracker up your ass...




NOW, can we finally get back too harping about overwound PAFS and drop the totally senseless and self explanatory discussion over who makes the rules, who enforces them, and who has to live by them or search for virtual freedom elsewhere? :beerchug:

You completely missed the points and are making a mountain out of a mole-hill so to speak but that's ok. I'd rather talk pickups anyway...I've got a new guitar on the way.

 

[Scott_F]

Re: The elusive 10K PAF Disscusions Open (Scott)

I think I'm done posting on this. I've said my peace. (one finger pecking my way through this). Feel free to pontificate further, lets just keep in this one thread. When everyone has had a chance to vent, i'll un-sticky it and let it drft off downstream.

 

[STRATDELUXER97]

Re: The elusive 10K PAF Disscusions Open (Scott)

I think I'm done posting on this. I've said my peace. (one finger pecking my way through this). Feel free to pontificate further, lets just keep in this one thread. When everyone has had a chance to vent, i'll un-sticky it and let it drft off downstream.

Hybrids baby! Hybrids! :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:

 

[Zerberus]

Re: The elusive 10K PAF Disscusions Open (Scott)

You completely missed the points and are making a mountain out of a mole-hill so to speak but that's ok. I'd rather talk pickups anyway...I've got a new guitar on the way.

Yeah, something tells me our argument´s aren´t really connecting to each other, as I originally had practically the same thing in my post before it became too long after editing and I tossexd it out..... But yeah, let´s talk pickups :beerchug:

Whaddaya gettin`?

 

[ranalli]

Re: The elusive 10K PAF Disscusions Open (Scott)

Yeah, something tells me our argument´s aren´t really connecting to each other, as I originally had practically the same thing in my post before it became too long after editing and I tossexd it out..... But yeah, let´s talk pickups :beerchug:

Whaddaya gettin`?

I'm really leaning towards the Custom again. I've had that pickup in the past and the guitar I had it just wasn't jiving with it for some reason.....came off as harsh. But the guitar I have now.....I have the JB in it currently....sounds good...but not great. The upper mids are a little overbearing and I want a touch more bottom end.

I think the Custom will suit it well Of course I have Distortions, Screamin Demons and multiple JBs lying around for a rainy day....but I think I need to go with the Custom on this one


Of course those new strat pickups are going to be a MUST HAVE pretty soon. A good strat sound is really the only sound I'm missing and since I'm clueless when it comes to strat pickups( almost too many too choose from ), these seem like the best thing going right now.

 

[Zerberus]

Re: The elusive 10K PAF Disscusions Open (Scott)

I'm really leaning towards the Custom again. I've had that pickup in the past and the guitar I had it just wasn't jiving with it for some reason.....came off as harsh. But the guitar I have now.....I have the JB in it currently....sounds good...but not great. The upper mids are a little overbearing and I want a touch more bottom end.

I think the Custom will suit it well Of course I have Distortions, Screamin Demons and multiple JBs lying around for a rainy day....but I think I need to go with the Custom on this one

The way you describe it I think you´d be pretty happy w/ the custom

Of course those new strat pickups are going to be a MUST HAVE pretty soon. A good strat sound is really the only sound I'm missing and since I'm clueless when it comes to strat pickups( almost too many too choose from ), these seem like the best thing going right now.

+1 on all points.... I know how antiquities sound and I´d like the same or finally what I´d call "reasonably close" in a Noiseless ... from what Lew and others have said, my search may be over :fingersx:

 

[theodie]

Re: The elusive 10K PAF Disscusions Open (Scott)

I guess the part of all this
So, who's in with Theodie & me on a group purchase?

Scott, am I correct in assuming that you would be onboard for this??

Who else??? Come on folks, put your $$ where your mouth is and lets do this! Lets figure out specs, then find out how many folks are onboard, the contact MJ and get a qoute for them.

Alot of folks are saying they want them! Come out of the woodwork and jump onboard!

 

[Scott_F]

Re: The elusive 10K PAF Disscusions Open (Scott)

Scott, am I correct in assuming that you would be onboard for this??

Who else??? Come on folks, put your $$ where your mouth is and lets do this! Lets figure out specs, then find out how many folks are onboard, the contact MJ and get a qoute for them.

Alot of folks are saying they want them! Come out of the woodwork and jump onboard!

I'll support it. Let me do the negotiating with MJ, as she hates me!

 

[Fusion1]

Re: The elusive 10K PAF Disscusions Open (Scott)

Zerb you mentioned that the Sdeco meets the needs of a 10k pickup. I haven't heard one myself, so I don't know how it compares to say a Custom/59 hybrid, but I have a feeling those 2 pickups are still different somehow with the better sounding of the 2 going to the hybrid. As I said I haven't heard the Sdeco so I am only making assumptions and maybe it is a holy grail pickup undiscovered.

I do know there is quite alot of interest in the actual sound of a hybrid out there (use the search feature for hybrids) of those that have heard and tried it, and I havent heard too many Sdeco users out there (maybe because there is a premium price to pay and too many cheap azz musicians not willing to buy it ) hyping that pickup if it was really all that and a bag of CHIPS.

Lastly the idea that offering the hybrid as a production model would require extensive and costly R&D and marketeing research seems a bit exagerrated as it is parts that SD already makes, outside of designing a new cardboard liner for the plastic casing and space for new inventory required for a new model, which isn't the same as designing a pickup from the ground up.

The potential profit margin seems quite high. What if (and yes I don't think a "what if" scenario is a safe bet for a successful company like Seymour Duncan) this "new" hybrid production model started outselling the JB? Talk about emplyee bonuses

Seems like it would have a more relevant niche for this market than one of the other novelty pickups like someone mentioned the STAG Mag or the Duncan Distortion Neck.

After saying all of this I am just throwing this out there as I think this would be a wildly popular pickup for SD and I wish Seymour all the success in the world. Heck this forum has been a haven and sanctuary for many on here and we owe him our gratitude for that.

Sorry for the long winded post.

 

[ranalli]

Re: The elusive 10K PAF Disscusions Open (Scott)

The way you describe it I think you´d be pretty happy w/ the custom



+1 on all points.... I know how antiquities sound and I´d like the same or finally what I´d call "reasonably close" in a Noiseless ... from what Lew and others have said, my search may be over :fingersx:

Yeah...I was thinking about the Antiquities....but the noiseless thing is important to me. Buzzing and humming just annoys the heck out of me. If these are 90% of the way there as far as tone goes....then that's fine by me and I'd be willing to pay decently for them too as I don't plan on yanking them out anytime soon if they do the job. As I said before, I'm stoked about these and I'd love to try them under some light crunchy gain a la The Cars type tones....and then go for the nice chimey cleans as well

 

[JeffB]

Re: The elusive 10K PAF Disscusions Open (Scott)

From architects description of his, as well as the specs, The S-Deco does not sound like what *I* am looking for, though it may indeed be what others want. I'm looking for something in that BB3/VHPAF/Maximus/Marshallhead/VHII class. The S-Deco is wound quite a bit hotter.

That said If I could hear the damn thing, liked it and the price was more resonable, I'd certainly consider going in on this.