The golden age of guitar making is over people!

[Mr 9finger]

It has been for a long time. The instrument industry is about 2 things now.

Production.

Money.

If you want hand built quality, then go to a luthier or go to the custom shop of brand X. If it's a name brand custom shop, expect to pay name brand prices.

I'm sort of defending Gibson on this, but in most respects, I'm not. Every US manufacturer of PRODUCTION guitars is guilty of one thing or another.

1. Complaining about the cost of US made guitars is pointless. American labor costs is expensive and rising.

2. Face it. American workers as a whole, have become lazy and disenchanted. How many people do you know that actually take pride in their work? The American workforce has wanted more for less effort for years and it's not changing anytime soon. I don't see how it would be any different in a guitar factory.

3. How many of these guys do you think are actually guitar players that work at places like Fender, Gibson, PRS, etc...Probably more than the avg, but still a fraction compared to the rest of the workforce employed there. Those that don't play are just trying to make it through the day and collect their paycheck at the end of the week. They have no idea what a great guitar feels like.

4. New woods. If you honestly did not see this coming, you're an idiot. Plain and simple. Common sense says that if you've been raping the lands for certain species of woods for 60+ years along with production raising exponentially, those woods are going to become hard to get. If you can even get them at all. This has caused 2 things to happen. The price has gone up on these species and the quality available has went down. There is no such thing as cheap good wood within the industry standard woods. Gibson might have started doing it for the wrong reason, but you can count that other manufacturers will have to follow suit before long. I figured most of you would have figured this out after Bob Taylor made his little announcement about Ebony awhile back.

5. Quality and mistakes. I can't really argue this too much. This also coincides with .2. Sure, you don't see the glaring mistakes on MIC, MIK, MIJ, etc... that you do on American made guitars. That's because Japan is still probably the proudest country in the world, and they still take pride in their work. The other places, well they have to do a good job or else. They don't have a welfare system to fall back on if they get fired. Pride in your work. Is it acceptable for Gibson, Fender, PRS? No, it shouldn't be, but our current society has made it that way. You can complain about this stuff all you want, but in reality, us people on the forums is actually a small percentage of the buying public.

 

[King IzzO)))]

Re: The golden age of guitar making is over people!

Everyone realizes that American made guitars are going to cost more. The point isn't that they cost more, it's that you'd expect to get what you pay for. Gibson obviously has virtually no quality inspection. Simple things, fretboards glued onto necks crooked, wrong pickups, wrong magnets, cheap bridges, sloppy work. I don't are if the workers are guitar players or not, I'd wager that even less of the Japanese/Korean/Chinese factory workers are guitarists, so that arguement means nothing. What about MIA Fender? They don't have the same issues. Hmmm, it's a quality control issue and a greed issue, plain and simple.

If I did work like that I wouldn't have a job for long. I don't know what industry you work in, but I'd guess it's the same.

 

[jmh151]

Re: The golden age of guitar making is over people!

Mass production quality has improved tremendously when it comes to guitars, I'd hate to remember the budget guitars I grew up with in the 80's, or the budget amps (remember Gorilla?).

The harvesting of woods is the biggest problem.

I think guitars as a whole are being built the best they ever have, especially for anyone on a budget. The Best of the best is still out there, but you gotta pay. Find the price of a Les Paul in 1959 and adjust it for inflation. And take into account they had their quality control problems as well.

What everyone's missing is the golden age of Guitar Amplifiers- it's insane what we can get now between guitar modeling or companies like Jet City Amps.

 

[Powdered Toast Man]

Re: The golden age of guitar making is over people!

5. Quality and mistakes. I can't really argue this too much. This also coincides with .2. Sure, you don't see the glaring mistakes on MIC, MIK, MIJ, etc... that you do on American made guitars. That's because Japan is still probably the proudest country in the world, and they still take pride in their work. The other places, well they have to do a good job or else. They don't have a welfare system to fall back on if they get fired. Pride in your work. Is it acceptable for Gibson, Fender, PRS? No, it shouldn't be, but our current society has made it that way. You can complain about this stuff all you want, but in reality, us people on the forums is actually a small percentage of the buying public.

Have you seen a 70's Fender? Their QC is LIGHT YEARS better now. There's a reason the import market gained traction in North America - because the American makers were putting out crap. Why? The same reason you stated above: Money. Do you think CBS was out to build quality instruments for the love of music? No, they bought Fender to make a buck. Not only that, but take off the rose tinted glasses. Leo Fender himself pioneered the modern assembly line process of manufacturing guitars!

 

[MetalManiac]

Re: The golden age of guitar making is over people!

The Golden Age was over in the late 60's to early 70's.

Things improved after the 80's, but now with the environ-mental issues, and more of a mass produced assembly line product, there are some going to be some obvious issues.

I wouldnt hesistate to by a Gibson sight unseen, at least up untill now, and the quality of Korean and Japanese and even some chinese made guitars is amazing compared to what one could expect to get back in 'Ol Skool Daze.

 

[Mr 9finger]

Re: The golden age of guitar making is over people!

Everyone realizes that American made guitars are going to cost more. The point isn't that they cost more, it's that you'd expect to get what you pay for. Gibson obviously has virtually no quality inspection. Simple things, fretboards glued onto necks crooked, wrong pickups, wrong magnets, cheap bridges, sloppy work. I don't are if the workers are guitar players or not, I'd wager that even less of the Japanese/Korean/Chinese factory workers are guitarists, so that arguement means nothing. What about MIA Fender? They don't have the same issues. Hmmm, it's a quality control issue and a greed issue, plain and simple.

If I did work like that I wouldn't have a job for long. I don't know what industry you work in, but I'd guess it's the same.

Actually the MIA vs. MIJ, MIC, MIK, etc... is a very valid argument. People in those countries have to do a good job. If they don't, they get fired, beaten, whatever. No job for them equates to no money. They don't have food stamps and unemployment there. Americans do and its become a viable EXCUSE to not worry about your work. There, do a good job or you and your family will starve. Here, if you can't hack it, we'll pay you and put food on your table while you watch TV. Get it? We don't have consequences here.

I'm sure Gibson is suffering from the same thing every other manufacturing facility in the US is suffering. High turnover rates. The top paying factory here has a turnover rate of 16 to 1. That's 1 person stays to every 16 that are hired. That is a training and production nightmare for any company. Gibson, Fender, PRS included. Where you work might be different, but this a plague that affects every American manufacturing facility to some extent.

Comparing Fender to Gibson is not a valid argument either. You're comparing 2 totally different construction methods. Bolt on guitars take half the time and half the skill to assemble. Got a bad neck? OK, grab another off the line and bolt it on. Can't do that at Gibson or PRS. Once it's on, it's on. This is why you see places like Warmoth, USACG, and Guitar Mill. Past the CNC part of things, there's relatively little hand work involved for assembly compared to the gluing, binding, hand sanding the carved top etc...If it's an argument, it's def not a fair one.

Hardware and pickups? Do you think Fender or PRS uses anything better? Last time I checked, there are far and away more bridge replacements for Fender than there are for tune o matic setups. Pickups, this is a pickup forum and we are, for better or worse, pickup snobs. 90% of the guitar playing public could give 2 craps about what magnets are in their pickups. Even more closer to home, IMO, most stock pickups suck. Fender included.

Oh yeah, I've also never seen a fret board glued on crooked. I've seen other imperfections on Gibson's but I've not seen a crooked fret board. On this note, do you think 50's and 60's Gibson guitars were absolutely perfect off the line? I doubt it. I doubt it very seriously.

 

[Mr 9finger]

Re: The golden age of guitar making is over people!

Man! Did I kick the hornets nest on this one or what?

 

[Mr 9finger]

Re: The golden age of guitar making is over people!

As for PRS, you don't see many of these problems pop up. BUT, they are the new guys to the game. They are not nearly as big as Gibson and Fender, which both own a number of facilities. When PRS expands to the size of Gibson and Fender, you'll start seeing more of this stuff from them.

 

[Mr 9finger]

Re: The golden age of guitar making is over people!

So far what I've seen is. Gibson is a failure at everything and Fender is scott free of mistakes.

I've seen just as many poorly routed neck pockets, shoddy fret and nut work, crooked tuners, and offset bridge placement on American Fenders as I have as all the stuff on Gibson guitars. IMO, and it literally pains me to say this because I strongly dislike Paul Smith, but PRS is the only American guitar maker of mass produced guitars that gets an A on QC.

 

[King IzzO)))]

Re: The golden age of guitar making is over people!

A set neck is not that much more diffcult to construct than a bolt on, and just as you said, if the neck is crap you grab another one and glue it on instead, again, quality inspection issue. If you don't believe me, go check out some of the faded guitars, I've only looked at maybe twenty, and three of them I've seen have the fretboard off to one side, top or bottom. I've never seen this on any other guitar [period].

Not every American industry is plagued with this, in fact, quality inspection is the norm for manufacturing work. This is apparently not the case at Gibson, or they are understaffed in this area, possibly to save a few bucks, just a guess.

And food stamps & welfare are not uniquely American and don't encourage workers to not do a good job, that's just fox news ridiculous.

Callaham, Schaller, Tonepros, and Gotoh all make aftermarket TOM bridges, I'm sure there's more than that too. The Fender trem is just a flawed design, so people make a bunch of "better" variations. Besides, I'm not saying Fender is without fault either, so that doesn't really matter.

When Fender was building crap people bashed them too, they did something about it, which is what I'm suggesting Gibson needs to do. Catch my drift?

 

[Mr 9finger]

Re: The golden age of guitar making is over people!

I catch your drift. QC is an inarguable fact. I'm not saying they shouldn't pick up on that. I'm saying that they aren't the only ones out there doing it. They just catch a lot of flack because of who they are.

I'm not going to comment on the other things, as they're starting to push into political discussion.

 

[ImmortalSix]

As for PRS, you don't see many of these problems pop up. BUT, they are the new guys to the game. They are not nearly as big as Gibson and Fender, which both own a number of facilities. When PRS expands to the size of Gibson and Fender, you'll start seeing more of this stuff from them.

Objection! Supposition.

 

[BEACHBUM]

Re: The golden age of guitar making is over people!

The Golden Age was over in the late 60's to early 70's.

You are exactly correct. But not for the Japanese. Their "Golden Age" began in the early 70's and has continued without interuption to present day. They have had no "CBS" era, no "Norlin" era, or for that matter, no "Henry J." era. And, even though the cost of living and wage levels are even higher in Japan than they are here they have continued to build world class production guitars at reasonable prices without a hitch for the last 40+ years. So, what was our excuse again?

 

[uOpt]

Re: The golden age of guitar making is over people!

Producing things in China gets much more expensive, too.

Several clothes and shoe makers now want to go to places like Vietnam and Bangladesh, but many fail because the places are too effed up to have a working factory with reliable supply there. China is very sophisticated by local standards, and their pool of people who are able to work in a high-tech factory is far from unlimited.

In the near future, qualified labor in America will have less of a cost offset compared to far east qualified labor, not more.

And the wood harvesting already is all sustainable, that means less harvesting of the tone woods is place than what is growing. The exception is places where local law enforcement breaks down, such as in Madagascar in 2009, but at the time only Gibson actually exploited the situation and bought wood from those activities (that's what the 2009 raid was about).

 

[Grindspine]

Re: The golden age of guitar making is over people!

I am skipping a few posts on this.

I will just state plainly, the best guitars I have personally played have been either U.S. custom shop or Japanese guitars.

Granted, my USA made B.C. Rich was likely made by Mexicans who had come to the U.S. I have played at least four AMAZING Japanese made electrics and acoustic guitars. I have played some great USA custom shop Charvel/Jackson guitars as well.

On the other hand, some of the Korean production guitars (B.C. Rich and Ibanez) guitars that I have played have inferior fretwork and poor choice in body woods.

 

[MetalManiac]

Re: The golden age of guitar making is over people!

You are exactly correct. But not for the Japanese. Their "Golden Age" began in the early 70's and has continued without interuption to present day. They have had no "CBS" era, no "Norlin" era, or for that matter, no "Henry J." era. And, even though the cost of living and wage levels are even higher in Japan than they are here they have continued to build world class production guitars at reasonable prices without a hitch for the last 40+ years. So, what was our excuse again?

I think the japanese cannot make Strat/Tele guitars on the Fender Custom Shop level, nor a Les Paul as good as a regular Productrion Les Paul Standard.
I think some of the dedicated shred/metal guitars are as good as anything in the Jackson Custom Shop maybe.

 

[AlexR]

Re: The golden age of guitar making is over people!

But I have a Parker that is made in Indonesia that is (almost) as playable/high quality finish as anything else....including USA, Japan and custom made.

I think the point here is that USA made can be almost as inconsistent as the newer centres of manufacture....which really shouldn't be the case.

Another point is that some people automatically assume an increase in price = increase in quality....like "I paid $$$$ for this Les Paul and I expect that price will give me a much better guitar than a MIM strat".....when most of the $ differences are soaked up by the higher labour costs and a more complicated construction process.

 

[Chickenwings]

Re: The golden age of guitar making is over people!

It has been for a long time. The instrument industry is about 2 things now.

Production.

Money.

Always has been. No big deal.

 

[Bfeeney]

Re: The golden age of guitar making is over people!

...that's just fox news ridiculous.

HA!:lmao:

 

[Mr 9finger]

Re: The golden age of guitar making is over people!

I think the japanese cannot make Strat/Tele guitars on the Fender Custom Shop level, nor a Les Paul as good as a regular Productrion Les Paul Standard.
I think some of the dedicated shred/metal guitars are as good as anything in the Jackson Custom Shop maybe.

You've not played many top end Japanese guitars have ya man. Fender put a stop to Japan importing guitars(Fender logo'd of course) into the US because they were better than most of the guitars coming off the US production line. Gibson has used them in the past. Most recently Charvel has done this with the pro mods. Price and quality was too close to the US production guitars, so they moved it somewhere else.

But I have a Parker that is made in Indonesia that is (almost) as playable/high quality finish as anything else....including USA, Japan and custom made.

I think the point here is that USA made can be almost as inconsistent as the newer centres of manufacture....which really shouldn't be the case.

Another point is that some people automatically assume an increase in price = increase in quality....like "I paid $$$$ for this Les Paul and I expect that price will give me a much better guitar than a MIM strat".....when most of the $ differences are soaked up by the higher labour costs and a more complicated construction process.

I think you understood what I was saying completely.

Always has been. No big deal.

No it's not. People make it a bigger deal than it really is. Gibson, Fender, Ibanez, Marshall, Nike, LG, Samsung, Ford, Chevy......they're all names. Those names have built empires to make money. Hell even Seymour Duncan falls into this category. Most of them could care less what the end user thinks. They're name brands and will continue to make money because they are name brands. A few people b*tching on a forum doesn't bother them at all because those people/us people are a minority to their buying market.

Bottom line is, if you want a guitar built for a guitar player by a guitar player with passion and soul, you either need to hit up some of the smaller luthiers like McNaught, Huber, etc... or you need to pony up and get with the custom shop from brand X.