Thin brittle output

[GuitarDoc]

Re: Thin brittle output

Time to jump on my hobby horse! )

IME and IMHO, old school designs like the Pearly Gates need an old school playing context to deliver their goodness. I'm not talking only about the guitar, effects and amp but also about... the cable used to plug the axe.

FWIW, here are some excerpts of the OLD Duncan FAQ (those available online ten or twelve years ago):



As a matter of fact, if the cable used to plug the guitar is a "low capacitance" one (and causes a bright sound), a permanent low value cap between the hot point and ground of the jack output will help to tame the annoying brightness.
Each time 150pf are added, it's as if the cable was 1m longer and the tone progressively shifts from bright highs to prominent upper mids.

Example here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2sjeVQpS94 (after 7:16 for humbuckers).

When I used PG's, I was happy with a cable of 6m / 1000picofarad (=1nanofarad = 0.001µ). It made the sound meaty and thick.

I wouldn't try directly a 1n cap, though: as the rest of the wiring is already capacitive. 500pf should be enough for starter. Styroflex caps are tonally satisfying for such a use. And a capacitor costs a few cents.

Good luck!

Yeah....
This doesn't actually address his problem.

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: Thin brittle output

+1^ (to Funk's post)

 

[freefrog]

Re: Thin brittle output

Yeah....
This doesn't actually address his problem.

"Yeah"..., I’ve seen it: the OP feels his problem as impossible to solve.

Now, as he hasn’t commented my own post, it seems that he hasn’t tried what I say. In this situation, sure, my post doesn’t address his problem… LOL. : -))

At least the OP has been polite and grateful. I wish him to find a solution.

For other readers, I'll tell it again : with pickups like the PG’s , low value capacitive loads are a remedy among others against the “thin brittle tone” mentioned in the title. IME, it works especially well with some bright sounding instruments.
In my mind, of course, it doesn't deny the interest and efficiency of other solutions (nor the validity of other posts from other members)... )

Have a nice day, everybody!

 

[Gibson 1964]

Re: Thin brittle output

"Yeah"..., I’ve seen it: the OP feels his problem as impossible to solve.

Now, as he hasn’t commented my own post, it seems that he hasn’t tried what I say. In this situation, sure, my post doesn’t address his problem… LOL. : -))

At least the OP has been polite and grateful. I wish him to find a solution.

For other readers, I'll tell it again : with pickups like the PG’s , low value capacitive loads are a remedy among others against the “thin brittle tone” mentioned in the title. IME, it works especially well with some bright sounding instruments.
In my mind, of course, it doesn't deny the interest and efficiency of other solutions (nor the validity of other posts from other members)... )

Have a nice day, everybody!

Umm, there is VERY clearly a wiring issue. A post about cable capacitance is not real helpful. No more helpful than posting about lawnmowers. It is sounding much more severe than a capacitance issue. FWIW, a capacitance issue is very small and can be dealt with at the amp.

 

[DR Ron]

Re: Thin brittle output

While I agree with everything you are saying...I'm not talking a slight bit of sound coloration...I am talking ear bleeding from the shrill. You would have to work very hard to simulate the experience of what is occurring outside the guitar.

I have two amps and a DI box into my computer which I have been testing on. I also have a second guitar which I was testing to make sure nothing was amiss.

But the problem is only on my Squier Affinity Strat...with both the JB JR. and the Pearly Gates pickups.

Earlier in the thread someone mentioned it sounded like a grounding issue. Sure enough that was what thinned the tone out...once fixed however the shrill was still present, It just had more tone around it.

I hardwired all three pickups together directly to the output, no switches or pots with the exception of a DPDT to coil Split the humbuckers. It was the best sounding so far...but different notes are louder or softer...any gain introduced in sounds horrific.

I am yanking those pickups tonight, I know it is the pickups because the ones I had in before were good, I was just hoping for more variety of tone.

 

[DR Ron]

Re: Thin brittle output

Im sorry I didn't reply to your post, I honestly didn't see it until 15 minutes ago.

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: Thin brittle output

Have you tried adjusting the pup heights yet?

 

[freefrog]

Re: Thin brittle output

Umm, there is VERY clearly a wiring issue. A post about cable capacitance is not real helpful. No more helpful than posting about lawnmowers. It is sounding much more severe than a capacitance issue. FWIW, a capacitance issue is very small and can be dealt with at the amp.

It was not less clear in my mind that I was evoking a similar situation actually lived and solved here : "Thin brittle tone" with a PG in a low cost guitar is a complain that I've already heard. The first time, the issue involved a guitar entirely made of maple and the tone was SO thin/bright/brittle that anybody would have suspected a flawed wiring. It wasn't the case... And I've solved the problem with the kind of solution mentioned in my previous post.
That's how I've started to experiment with low value caps and advanced passive LRC networks in my own instruments... this kind of circuit makes my TV Jones Classic's able to sound like P.A.F. replicas and no amp control would be able to do the same IME.

YMMV.

 

[DR Ron]

Re: Thin brittle output

I actually did mess around with the heights. From what I read the higher you go the more potential for anomalies...so I lowered the pickups to just above the pick guard.

I assure you all Im am very grateful to each and everyone of you. You are dealing with a novice who basically has to lookup each concept suggested.

 

[jeremy]

Re: Thin brittle output

i think you need to move your pups closer to the strings. the closer they are the more output youll have and if you are too far away youll lose all body to the sound.

the stock squire pups are probably ceramic and might have a fair amount of output compared to a typical alnico vintage strat pup.

your statement about the anomalies pertains more to alnico rod magnet pups. they can pull on the strings and cause odd things to happen but its most common in the neck and shouldnt be an issue with either of the humbuckers you are dealing with

 

[devastone]

Re: Thin brittle output

Have you double checked your grounding from the back of the pots to the output jack? You should have a connection from the sleeve connection on the jack to the cases of the pots. Also make sure the most left lug of the volume pot (looking at it from the bottom) is connected to the case/ground of the pot. It really sounds like you have a bad ground somewhere.

The standard series wiring for Duncan humbuckers is red and white soldered together (make sure you have a good connection), green and bare to ground, and black to switch. You might try just wiring the bridge humbucker straight to the volume pot and see how if that works, if it does, just move the black wire to the appropriate spot on the switch and check again. Also check to make sure you haven't heated the wires so much that you have melted through the insulation somewhere and created a connection where you don't want it, the insulation on those thin wires can melt easily.

Also, Jeremy is correct, you want the pups closer to the strings, a good place to start is to hold down the low and high e-strings at the highest fret, then adjust the pickups so they pole is ~3/16" from the low e string and ~1/8" from the high e string, then adjust from there.

 

[DR Ron]

Re: Thin brittle output

Have you double checked your grounding from the back of the pots to the output jack? You should have a connection from the sleeve connection on the jack to the cases of the pots. Also make sure the most left lug of the volume pot (looking at it from the bottom) is connected to the case/ground of the pot. It really sounds like you have a bad ground somewhere.

The standard series wiring for Duncan humbuckers is red and white soldered together (make sure you have a good connection), green and bare to ground, and black to switch. You might try just wiring the bridge humbucker straight to the volume pot and see how if that works, if it does, just move the black wire to the appropriate spot on the switch and check again. Also check to make sure you haven't heated the wires so much that you have melted through the insulation somewhere and created a connection where you don't want it, the insulation on those thin wires can melt easily.

Also, Jeremy is correct, you want the pups closer to the strings, a good place to start is to hold down the low and high e-strings at the highest fret, then adjust the pickups so they pole is ~3/16" from the low e string and ~1/8" from the high e string, then adjust from there.

As it stands right now I have removed all pots and switches and Im connecting the pickups one at a time to the output jack. They sound full but that spike in the frequency range still overpowers the sound.

Is there a low value cap or resistor that I could wire in to tame the shrill. The tone controls are too coarse so they muddy up.

 

[Gibson 1964]

Re: Thin brittle output

It was not less clear in my mind that I was evoking a similar situation actually lived and solved here : "Thin brittle tone" with a PG in a low cost guitar is a complain that I've already heard. The first time, the issue involved a guitar entirely made of maple and the tone was SO thin/bright/brittle that anybody would have suspected a flawed wiring. It wasn't the case... And I've solved the problem with the kind of solution mentioned in my previous post.
That's how I've started to experiment with low value caps and advanced passive LRC networks in my own instruments... this kind of circuit makes my TV Jones Classic's able to sound like P.A.F. replicas and no amp control would be able to do the same IME.

YMMV.

Low cost guitar should be irrelevant. Cost has nothing to do with how a guitar sounds. True, what wood it is made of matters, but many cheap woods lean towards the mufled. Different notes being louder and softer sounds like a phasing issue or something else. Capacitance is a relative fine tuning issue. I use low capacitance cable because I like my guitars to have very little filtering and filter later in the signal chain.

Quite frankly, this is silly. Solid maple guitars are relatively rarer than bad solder joints. Capacitance being too low would be a very peculiar problem, being as cheap stuff tends to lean towards higher capacitance. Jumping on the phrase, "thin brittle tone" while ignoring the fact that a DPDT was able to fix the problem in a position is rather unobservant. series humbucker should be the darkest of the positions. Parallel and split coils would be far brighter, so if split is darker and higher output, something is wrong with the wiring, not the cable. Follow the signal path.

Something isn't right. Try one pickup at a time. Rolling off highs is probably the easiest problem to fix. Having too much of something can be rolled off. Having not enough of something or none of something is a far more difficult problem. But jumping to capacitance is hearing hoofbeats and jumping to conclusions that a troop of monkeys is marching through Kansas. Possible, technically, yes. Likely, not really.

Also... this is out there, but make sure all wood and painted wood is not connecting with connections. I have seen some weird results from the connection touching wood.

 

[Gibson 1964]

Re: Thin brittle output

I would try 500k pots and .022 caps. This would allow your tone controls to be finer.

 

[freefrog]

Re: Thin brittle output

SORRY FOR THE TEMPORARY OT.

Low cost guitar should be irrelevant. Cost has nothing to do with how a guitar sounds. True, what wood it is made of matters, but many cheap woods lean towards the mufled.

I occasionally work with local luthiers, build my own partcasters and often modify cheap instruments for other folks: I've met all kinds of "resonance dysfunctions" with things like Squier parts, from muffled to extremely thin and bright.

Different notes being louder and softer sounds like a phasing issue or something else.

It could as well be a “comb filtering” issue, due to the interaction between acoustic resonances of the parts composing the guitar.

Capacitance is a relative fine tuning issue. I use low capacitance cable because I like my guitars to have very little filtering and filter later in the signal chain. […] Solid maple guitars are relatively rarer than bad solder joints. Capacitance being too low would be a very peculiar problem, being as cheap stuff tends to lean towards higher capacitance.

1)I’ve never evoked capacitance as being an “issue”: I was mentioning it as an unexpected solution.

2) for SRV among many other guitar heroes capacitance wouldn't be a fine tuning issue. The effect of capacitive load affects resonant peaks so it can't be really corrected by amp controls, whose action relies on a shelving EQing. And if capacitance was so indifferent, Seymour wouldn’t have evoked it in his old FAQ..

3)if maple guitars are rare, much time have been passed here to work for my friends on cheap Squier’s, in order to mod these guitars to death.

[EDIT: I've really never said that the "maple guitar" was a Squier, BTW. All maple guitars weren't that rare in my country in the 80's under various brands, sometimes cheap, unknown and nowadays disappeared. AMong more popular models, besides the L6S and some Kramer's or Rickenbacker's, here is an example of not so unknown all maple model:
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/carvin-v220.233113/
I've also met LP copies completely made of laminated sycamore and Strat clones like the Vox standard 25... They weren't always too bright sounding, of course.]

series humbucker should be the darkest of the positions. Parallel and split coils would be far brighter, so if split is darker and higher output, something is wrong with the wiring, not the cable. Follow the signal path.

I’ve never said that the cable was "wrong".

Also... this is out there, but make sure all wood and painted wood is not connecting with connections. I have seen some weird results from the connection touching wood.

+1 on that.

Quite frankly, this is silly […] Jumping on the phrase, "thin brittle tone" while ignoring the fact that a DPDT was able to fix the problem in a position is rather unobservant. […]Something isn't right. Try one pickup at a time. Rolling off highs is probably the easiest problem to fix. Having too much of something can be rolled off. Having not enough of something or none of something is a far more difficult problem. But jumping to capacitance is hearing hoofbeats and jumping to conclusions that a troop of monkeys is marching through Kansas. Possible, technically, yes. Likely, not really.

OK.

Now, Sir, let me ask you a few questions.

Did I ever question the validity of your posts?

Conversely, is it necessary to comment my own posts with words like "silly" and negatively connotated sentences involving "monkeys"?

Now, you’re right on one thing: I write too much and hastily sometimes. Real life is much more important to me than forums and my days are full of work SO I read VERY quickly Internet threads on various forums. Furthermore, English is not my mother tongue. That's why I might post here and there what appears as inappropriate answers… Is it a reason to comment my contributions in an angry way?

[EDIT - This message has been cleaned of personal considerations. Its first iteration was talking about "me" in the only goal to plead for mutual respect and openess to other people's experience ; it wasn't a good idea since this intention has apparently been misunderstood as an attempt to look impressive... Babel syndrome still reigns on humanity.]

.../... BACK ON TOPIC


To the OP:

Absolutely sorry to have polluted your thread in such a way.

Maybe your guitar has a wiring issue: listen what other members said and follow their advices first.

If it's not the case, I'll post again later something that I had put here but that I prefer to cancel temporarily: there's no need to cloud your topic with answers felt as prematurate and therefore (involuntarily) prone to feed parasitic discussions.

 

[Gibson 1964]

Re: Thin brittle output

SORRY FOR THE TEMPORARY OT.



I occasionally work with local luthiers, build my own partcasters and often modify cheap instruments for other folks so I think to know that.



It could as well be a “comb filtering” issue, due to the interaction between acoustic resonances of the parts composing the guitar.



1)I’ve never evoked capacitance as being an “issue”: I was mentioning it as an unexpected solution.

2)SRV among many other guitar heroes would disagree with the idea that capacitance is a fine tuning issue. The effect of capacitive load affects resonant peaks so it can't be corrected by amp controls, whose action is a shelving EQing. And if capacitance was so indifferent, Seymour wouldn’t have evoked it in his old FAQ (not to mention that it wouldn't be my hobby horse).

3)if maple guitars are rare, I’ve passed much time to work for my friends on cheap Squier’s, modifying them to death. So maybe I'm not so necessarily ignorant that you imagine?



I’ve never said that the cable was "wrong".



+1 on that.




OK.

Now, Sir, let me ask you a few questions.

I buy and use Duncan pickups for almost 35 years. Do I take advantage of this experience to comment the validity of your posts?

I’m moderator on a guitar website in my country. I’ve a PhD. I earn my life as a teacher in a school for engineers. I use our lab gear to test guitar stuffs. I tinker with guitar parts for 35 years. I currently design and build my own circuits for guitars, pedals and amps. Do I show any anger, arrogance or contempt against you or any other user ?

You’re right on one thing: real life is much more important to me than forums and my days are full of work SO I read VERY quickly Internet threads on various forums. Furthermore, English is not my mother tongue. So, I might post here and there what appears as inappropriate answers… Is it a reason to comment my contributions in such a way?

It's really not that I wanted to waste OUR time in a petty struggle, you know...

.../... BACK ON TOPIC


To the OP:

Absolutely sorry to have polluted your thread in such a way.

Maybe your guitar has a wiring issue: listen what other members said and follow their advices first.


If it's not the case, let me tell you a few last things…

Malmsteen plays on Strats with single coil sized stacks.

If memory serves me, he has stated once to have tried Gibson guitars and to have found them THIN SOUNDING.

It translates a paradox that Internet commonplaces tend to hide: a (good) humbucker can exhibit a higher “Q factor” than a single coil shaped pickup, and therefore sound apparently brighter (and glued necks contribute to a different resonance but that’s another story)…

…and while cheap ceramic pickups like those mounted in Squiers have generally lower DCR/inductance that expensive products, they CAN have a “rounder” resonant peak and an apparently warmer tone than more expensive pickups, PRECISELY because they are cheaper and less "efficient"magnetically...

Hence the possible tendency of more refined pickups like the PG to have a more pointy resonant peak and to appear as thinner sounding.

Electronically and if we consider the guitar wiring only, there is mostly two simple ways to solve this issue:

1)mounting pots with a lower resistance (or rolling down the tone pot) to “squash” the resonant peak of the pickup and tame its harmonics;

2)experimenting with capacitive (or even inductive) networks as I’ve tried to explain in my posts, in order to "shift down" the harmonics. It’s a considerably less known solution, often misunderstood, but not less effective IME (SRV did know that, according to Cesar Diaz).




I wish you to find a solution and I will have done my best to help you.

Yours,

"freefrog"

Without engaging in the relative ridiculousness of your post, I have worked as a tech, have 3 degrees, and have built a few dozen guitars, and repaired hundreds. I am pointing out that clearly capacitance should not be the solution to a miswiring problem. The switch effecting things the way it does, means the problem is almost certainly in the wiring, (or a burned out pot). Generally speaking, your post made a bunch of assumptions without reading the symptoms. The symptoms tell the story. There are a host of reasons a guitar might sound thin. I'd say low capacitance is somewhere really exotic in the grand scheme of problems. Especially with the premium cost of low capacitance cables.

The problem is, you are jumping to the conclusion that the guitar is working, when according to the posts, it is wired wrong, or has a wiring defect. A wire is shorted, or there is a cold joint or something similar. At best your solution would alter the tonality of defective electronics. I have played with capacitance, and while you can have some control with it, compared to a wiring error, it is definitely fine tuning.

My point is this, chances are the OP can fix the issue with what they already have, without introducing new variables into the mix, and while there can be value in playing with capacitance, it only makes sense to do so, once the guitar is confirmed to be working correctly. I like low capacitance, fairly short cables, sonically. I have tried long, higher capacitance cables as well, and while it makes a difference, generally speaking, it is fairly small. SRV's sound would have been different with a lower capacitance cable, but it would have made far less difference than a cold joint or a short!

As far as phasing, having had phasing issues in the past with pickups that were wired wrong from the factory, you definitely can get that issue there. While there is some filtering that can occur by the parts, this would have occurred with the previous pickups as well. When a new problem appears, you generally look at what was changed, not what remained constant. I am not reading that the body wood or hardware changed. The filtering that would have occurred would be relatively constant.

Having scratch built my first guitar 20 years ago, this whole post comes off as rather odd.

I have never seen a maple bodied squier. I have had many guitars apart, many squiers, and maple would definitely be an odd bird. I have seen piles of poplar, basswood, alder, etc, but never have I seen a maple one. That is not to say they don't exist, but I hardly think they would be the norm. Currently, according to Fender's site, a Squier affinity strat is alder, which is generally not as shrill as maple can be.


I am saying, once it has been confirmed that the guitar is in working order is time to try to deal with the frequency spike. Raising the pickups might well help. Again, a free solution.

 

[jeremy]

Re: Thin brittle output

ok guys, lets bring this back. you both have stated your positions and have valid points. the infighting is less than helpful

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: Thin brittle output

pcorn:

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: Thin brittle output

"Yeah"..., I’ve seen it: the OP feels his problem as impossible to solve.

Now, as he hasn’t commented my own post, it seems that he hasn’t tried what I say. In this situation, sure, my post doesn’t address his problem… LOL. : -))

At least the OP has been polite and grateful. I wish him to find a solution.

For other readers, I'll tell it again : with pickups like the PG’s , low value capacitive loads are a remedy among others against the “thin brittle tone” mentioned in the title. IME, it works especially well with some bright sounding instruments.
In my mind, of course, it doesn't deny the interest and efficiency of other solutions (nor the validity of other posts from other members)... )

Have a nice day, everybody!

You apparently didn't read his post! Or at least not his entire post.

He gets thin/ice pick sounds in two positions of his DPDT switch and normal in the other position. This is clearly a wiring issue. Let me repeat that, in case you misunderstood...this is a wiring issue, not a capacitance issue with his cord or any other component.

If you truly want to be helpful that's great. That is what this forum is all about. And we welcome your comments and advice based upon your knowledge and experience. But you need to understand the problem before you can even begin to offer any helpful or appropriate advice.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Thin brittle output

As it stands right now I have removed all pots and switches and Im connecting the pickups one at a time to the output jack. They sound full but that spike in the frequency range still overpowers the sound.

If you bypass the pots (by wiring directly to the jack), any bridge pickup will sound like hornets with razor blade wings in your ears.