Thinking of downsizing from my 4x12 cab, recommendations/advice?

[Jack_TriPpEr]

As some of you may have seen in my other recent thread here https://forum.seymourduncan.com/showthread.php?332790-Recommendations-for-replacement-for-G12T-75-speaker&referrerid=19446, i just replaced the 4 stock G12T-75 speakers in my Marshall 1960A 4x12 cab. With more time spent with the 4 new speakers, i think i could easily be content with just 2 of them.

So, the most obvious option is to get a 2x12 cab. But more appealing at the moment, is the idea of buying two 1x12 cabs. I like the idea of being able to put one cab on stage left and one cab on stage right , thinking i can cover the overall room better. But, would that truly work out? I have read that multiple speakers arranged together "move more air" and so yield a better overall tone for the listener? Also, is there going to be a big change in the overall tone when changing over from a 4x12 to a 2x12 cab or two 1x12 cabs, assuming all cabs have comparable build quality? Another reason i like the idea of two 1x12 cabs on paper better than a 2x12, is reduced weight and bulk when it comes to transporting them around.

Also, what are some good quality 1x12 cabs that i should check out? Same question for 2x12 cabs?

Thanks

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Re: Thinking of downsizing from my 4x12 cab, recommendations/advice?

With a little more thought, i answered one of my own questions ... becaus the two speakers under consideration are not the same... yes, there would be a difference in perceived tone when splitting the two of them up into separate 1x12 cabs. Haha

 

[arayadis]

Re: Thinking of downsizing from my 4x12 cab, recommendations/advice?

For me 2x12 cabs are great, you will get better results than two 1x12cabs because 2 cabs in one bigger wood will sound bigger
I think 4x12 cabs for stadiums or recordings other than that is just we want to buy bigger and expensive stuff.
I did a test video with Marshall Mini Jubilees matching 2x12 cab and resulted great. I advice 2536 cab to you:14:
https://youtu.be/Pw9GOxyXUvg

 

[Gtrjunior]

Thinking of downsizing from my 4x12 cab, recommendations/advice?

If you’re mic-ing your cab(s), splitting them stage left/right probably won’t make much difference in the FOH mix.
It may help with the stage mix but if your band is using IEM’s or floor wedges it just ends up being and extra piece of gear you’re lugging around.

 

[Van Noord]

Re: Thinking of downsizing from my 4x12 cab, recommendations/advice?

Nothing quite sounds like a 412. A 2x12 cab will never faithfully reproduce the level of sound projection and tone from a 412. But by design, a 412 is just impractical. Especially for gigging musicians.

I've owned a few 2x12 cabs over the years, and was never satisfied with them. Coming from 4x12's, they always sounded small, flat and beamy to me. But, what they make up for in practicality can supercede that in most cases.

Recently I've invested in two 1x12 cabs and have really liked the results. Together, they sound just as big as a 2x12 cab, but with better, more"3D" projection based on the different ways you can angle and position them. A gigging musician can also get by with one 1x12 in need be if the venue calls for it and if speaker and amplifier choice are appropriate.

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Re: Thinking of downsizing from my 4x12 cab, recommendations/advice?

Nothing quite sounds like a 412. A 2x12 cab will never faithfully reproduce the level of sound projection and tone from a 412. But by design, a 412 is just impractical. Especially for gigging musicians.

I've owned a few 2x12 cabs over the years, and was never satisfied with them. Coming from 4x12's, they always sounded small, flat and beamy to me. But, what they make up for in practicality can supercede that in most cases.

Recently I've invested in two 1x12 cabs and have really liked the results. Together, they sound just as big as a 2x12 cab, but with better, more"3D" projection based on the different ways you can angle and position them. A gigging musician can also get by with one 1x12 in need be if the venue calls for it and if speaker and amplifier choice are appropriate.

Cool, thanks. What is the model number of those Peavey 1x12 cabs in that photo you posted in your reply?

 

[dystrust]

Re: Thinking of downsizing from my 4x12 cab, recommendations/advice?

I'm rocking an Egnater Rebel 112X loaded with an Eminence Wizard. In the past I've used both a late 70s Marshall straight 4x12 loaded with G12H blackbacks and an Ear Candy Buzzbomb 2x12 also loaded with Emi Wizards. Honestly I don't notice much difference between the three other than volume.

 

[Van Noord]

Re: Thinking of downsizing from my 4x12 cab, recommendations/advice?

Cool, thanks. What is the model number of those Peavey 1x12 cabs in that photo you posted in your reply?

https://peavey.com/products/index.cfm/item/658/118441

 

[devastone]

Re: Thinking of downsizing from my 4x12 cab, recommendations/advice?

I just picked up an Avatar 1-12 Converible cab, it's big for a 1-12 and it has a removable panel on the back so you can run it open or closed back. I looked at Orange and Peavey cabs, but couldn't beat the Avatar at $329 shipped, and you get to choose the speaker. It's quite a bit bigger than the other 2, more than I expected, but I think that is a good thing, some 1-12s can sound boxy.

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: Thinking of downsizing from my 4x12 cab, recommendations/advice?

Cabinet interior volume has quite a lot to do with the "tonal potential" of the cab. There will be tonal differences when you switch to a split cabinet setup, even if you use exactly the same speakers, and even if you use exactly the same number of speakers. E.g. a 4x12 will probably be tuned differently than four 1x12's with the same speakers, even if the four 1x12's are stacked 2x2 so that the speakers are similarly placed as they would be in a 4x12. The question is not whether there will be tonal differences; there is no question that there will be. The question is whether the tonal differences will be beneficial or not...and that can't be answered except by you.

That said, two 2x12's will generally sound closer to a 4x12 than will four 1x12's. I would go for a double 2x12 setup, so you can run one or two of them. Then get a single 1x12 for times when you want a more simple and small grab-n-go rig.

 

[Gtrjunior]

Re: Thinking of downsizing from my 4x12 cab, recommendations/advice?

https://peavey.com/products/index.cfm/item/658/118441

At that price it’s a no brainer

 

[GuitarStv]

Re: Thinking of downsizing from my 4x12 cab, recommendations/advice?

I've been using a 1x12 combo stacked on top of a 1x12 extension cab for more than a decade now, and really like the setup. I like it better than a 2x12 (also it's easier to carry around), as mentioned you can angle the cabs a bit so the sound spreads out more, it's taller which also helps spread the sound out a bit more.

 

[jeremy]

Re: Thinking of downsizing from my 4x12 cab, recommendations/advice?

i used to have two mesa 1x12 cabs. they sounded good but nothing like a 4x12. i have a fender vibroking 2x12 cab and i dont miss the 4x12. the 2x12 isnt that much smaller but it is smaller and lighter and sounds great

 

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: Thinking of downsizing from my 4x12 cab, recommendations/advice?

A 2x12 that sounds close to a 4x12 is this one:

https://reverb.com/item/14985466-th...h3u6A7_EAQYAiABEgLq7vD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds&pla=1

 

[Rex_Rocker]

Re: Thinking of downsizing from my 4x12 cab, recommendations/advice?

I have an Orange PPC112 and a Marshall 1960A both loaded with 16 ohm Celestion G12H-75 Creambacks.

It's night and day, TBH. As much as the Orange is a solid cab for its size, it just doesn't sound nearly as good as the 4x12.

 

[Van Noord]

Re: Thinking of downsizing from my 4x12 cab, recommendations/advice?

At that price it’s a no brainer

Especially considering that's the price I paid in Canadian dollars too, so that's $142 US.
Lots of money left over to play with different speakers afterwards.

 

[NegativeEase]

Re: Thinking of downsizing from my 4x12 cab, recommendations/advice?

If you’re mic-ing your cab(s), splitting them stage left/right probably won’t make much difference in the FOH mix.
It may help with the stage mix but if your band is using IEM’s or floor wedges it just ends up being and extra piece of gear you’re lugging around.

Yeah, seconded -Stereo FX and and Wide Coverage is amazing for the player -but almost no systems are stereo for a crowd. -they all run in Mono, because paramount to a club is getting as close to the same mix at every listening position in a club -so all that badassness is for you -unless you play a coffee house -then it may just be amazing for everyone.

Gotto admit, running stereo or just multi-cab wide sounds amazing just to play at home too though.

 

[Boogie Bill]

Re: Thinking of downsizing from my 4x12 cab, recommendations/advice?

Some of my fav 212 cabs are the BF Fender Bassman and Bandmaster cabs of the mid-'60s. Later on they got bigger, but the smaller cabs sound great.

Then there are three Mesa 212 cabs I love: the V30 Horizontal Recto, the V30 Vertical Recto, and its predecessor...the 212 Half-Back cab. The Recto cabs are so solid...I use one with my Class A Mesa Maverick 212 V30 combo to create a low-power, portable half-stack. The HR adds a lot of low-end girth and projection in an amp that admittedly has its low-end curtailed. Much more vehicle-friendly than a 412.

The Vertical cabs do the same thing, but they put your amp's controls at waist level, and my old back likes that. The VR and HB cabs are big though. The HB cab has an open top and a closed-back ported bottom. Mesa offered a variety of speakers, and you could mix or match them. One of the most popular mixes is a Mesa Black Shadow C90 Celestion in the open top and the famed EVM in the ported bottom. The one I have has a Mesa/Eminence MS-12 in the bottom, and in these configurations will absolutely keep up with a 412. But as I said, it is a large cab...about 3/4 of the (smaller-than-a-Marshall) Mesa 412 Half-Back. BTW, the bottom of the 412 is NOT ported; that port really adds to the richness of the 212 HB.

You may have heard of Thiele-Small parameters, mathematical equations that predict a speaker's performance in a cabinet, allowing engineers to design a optimally-sized cabinet for a given speaker, and the size of the port needed to balance low frequency efficiency and minimize distortion.

The early Mesa amps do not have the low-end of say, a Twin Reverb, and they are designed this way to maximize their LEAD channels for smooth distortion characteristics. So Smith took those Thiele equations and designed a small 112 cab to match up with his combo amps, and shoe-horned a massive EVM speaker into it. Now, these 112 Mark IIs, IIIs and IV combos could compete with a 100-watt full-stack. Stack one of my Mark IIIs or IV on a Thiele and I have Twin Reverb "airiness" and power; the bottom-end punch and projection of a 412; and it's all in a package that is portable, with a smaller footprint than a Deluxe Reverb. I call that a WIN.

The Thiele also works with my DC-3 and my Mark V:35. With my Wide-Body Mark V, I use the Mesa Wide-Body Closed-Back cab which is also ported and mates perfectly with the Mark V. Like GuitarStv, I've been using these open+closed back rigs for a long time, and I am VERY happy with my tones.

Mesa builds other cabs as well in open, 3/4 and closed-back designs. I also have the slant and straight V30 Mini-Rectos to go with my Mark V:25, for a sweet little mini-stack. If you order from the factory, you can specify speaker(s), or go totally custom with colored vinyls, leathers or hardwoods. I am totally confident in the quality of the Mesa cabs, but they are not cheap...quality never is.

Good luck.

Bill

 

[dystrust]

Re: Thinking of downsizing from my 4x12 cab, recommendations/advice?

You may have heard of Thiele-Small parameters, mathematical equations that predict a speaker's performance in a cabinet, allowing engineers to design a optimally-sized cabinet for a given speaker, and the size of the port needed to balance low frequency efficiency and minimize distortion.

The early Mesa amps do not have the low-end of say, a Twin Reverb, and they are designed this way to maximize their LEAD channels for smooth distortion characteristics. So Smith took those Thiele equations and designed a small 112 cab to match up with his combo amps, and shoe-horned a massive EVM speaker into it.

FYI Randall Smith didn't design those original Thiele cabinets; Electro-Voice did. I don't know if they gave away the plans or if you had to buy them originally, but the Mesa guitar Thiele is literally an Electro-Voice TL-806 with a Mesa logo on it. Mesa also borrowed the EV TL-606 and sold it as their Diesel 1x15 bass cabinet.

 

[Chickenwings]

Re: Thinking of downsizing from my 4x12 cab, recommendations/advice?

"moving more air" is just not important.
All the greatest recorded guitar tones you can think of had a microphone as part of the equation. More often than not, it was an sm57 in close proximity to one of the speakers, sometimes a couple of other mics in various places in various spaces for some ambience but the basic equation is a simple one.
"moving more air" is something guitarists used to enjoy so they could physically feel the impact on your body that a really loud amp through a big cabinet can do. There are precious few opportunities in todays gigging environment when anyone can do that. Even if you are playing stadium gigs, that is so loud you make life really difficult for a singer and you will barely hear the rest of the band. It is simply not practical in 99% of venues and unnecessary in the last 1%. It feels nice, yeah, but it isn't 1969 anymore.
In terms of tone for your audience, the best possible thing to give them is a well balanced sound that mixes with the band. The kind of sound that does not blow your singer's eardrums or vocal chords out and lets them do their job the best they can. The kind of sound that allows you to hear the bassist. The kind of sound that lets the drummer play with some dynamic range and not have to hit the hell out of them just to create a groove. The kind of sound that a front of house engineer can work with and give the audience a band mix that will get them up and grooving.
Great guitarists the world over have been playing stadiums with 1x12s since santana started using a boogie. Just put a mic on it and there is your big sound in any size venue.
Get yourself a sexy looking 1x12 that your favorite amp head looks good sitting on (possibly a custom order from avatar or whoever you like), and put in a speaker that can handle roughly twice the wattage your amp can put out, with the kind of flavour you like whether it is british, american, alnico squishy, punchy, loose or whatever. There have never been so many fantastic choices out there for us guitarists. If you like that really fat, deep low end thump that a 4x12 gives you, make sure the cab you choose is a closed back one that is nicely tuned.
If you can, try getting used to tilting the box back so it is pointing at your head. You will definitely eq your amp differently than if the sound is blowing past your knees and into the faces of your audience. The eq you end up using will be a much smoother less trebly tone due to the tendency of high frequencies to travel in straight lines and bass frequencies in all directions. The upside of this, once you get used to it is that the sound being blasted down the mic's diaphragm will translate to a much better tone going through the front of house. It is a win/win because you can hear yourself clearly due to the directionality, but also not be a bother to the rest of the band (who also want to hear themselves clearly) and the front of house sound will be all the better for it.
Just bear in mind that in a lot of venues, even a single 12 can be too much amp for the room, so when choosing a speaker, keep a close eye on its efficiency because that has a much bigger impact on your stage volume even than the wattage rating of your amp.
What amp are you using by the way?