This guitar is a dud...what would you do?

[Top-L]

Put the guitar on the bench, straightened the neck....

And it turns out the truss rod is working just fine.

According to the fret rocker, frets 2 and 8 on the bass side are marginally higher than the surrounding frets.

I had to add more relief than it would normally need to get over the high frets, and because of the high 8th, that explains the buzzing in the 5-7 range.

This puts my mind at ease. There is nothing wrong with the guitar besides the fact it was never leveled. I guess thats too much to ask for 1K these days. :rant:

Just needs a spot level, although I will probably do the whole neck... or pay someone... or do it myself...

 

[Top-L]

Maybe it's because i have owned and played mostly Carvin Kiesels since the early 1990's but I refuse to accept this. Every single one of the these guitars I have ever bought new was perfection in the set up and fret work out of the box and so have the PRS and US Chicago Custom Washburn guitars I have owned . Few of the Carvin Kiesels in fact I had to RAISE the action not because of buzz but because it was so low I simply found them hard to play.
On this guitar I would fight with the seller for a replacement as this item is defective.

Well, those are 1.5K-2K+ guitars, I suppose they level and crown them before shipped. The last two Korean guitars I bought in the 1K-1.5K range were not leveled.

I would have expected a level on a 1K guitar, but this is 2020 and I just don't know anymore. I guess crowning frets is too labor intensive.

 

[GuitarDoc]

FWIW, I believe this is because guitar necks change or settle over time. I believe they do the most changing in the first year. That means that if a guitar is built and rushed through a plek process, and there is another 6-12 months before it finds a buyer, the plek job will no longer be accurate. I dont think there is a problem with plekking, just that the guitar changes.

I've had old necks plekked and the action and tone (everywhere on the neck) is unparalleled... for the first 6-12 months afterwards. Beyond that, mild shifting of the neck occurs and you can't tell a difference between a hand level and plek.

Which reminds me... why I shouldnt get this new guitar plekked. If the neck is straight and the frets have only a mild dip or peak, I will level it myself with then intention to get it plekked at the 3yr mark. If there is something more than a mild deviation, I will just return the guitar.

I believe in the plek process, it lets you get the lowest possible action without sacrificing tone, everywhere on the neck. Hand work you can go just as low, but there will be a few areas where tone is impacted. All imo.

Maybe you're just not as accurate with fret leveling as I am.

 

[GuitarDoc]

Well, those are 1.5K-2K+ guitars, I suppose they level and crown them before shipped. The last two Korean guitars I bought in the 1K-1.5K range were not leveled.

I would have expected a level on a 1K guitar, but this is 2020 and I just don't know anymore. I guess crowning frets is too labor intensive.

I absolutely agree. Guitars over $1000 should have near-perfect frets. I own 5 dozen guitars and regardless of purchase price I have had to do a fret job on nearly all of them. There have been a few exceptions, however. The best over-all quality guitar in every respect and by far the best fret work was on a Schecter C1. Even the fret ends were perfect (even by my standards which are OCD high). And this guitar was less than 1k (about $850 if I remember correctly, it's about 10-15 years old). Any and everything about this guitar is worlds better than even my $4500 Gibsons. I also have an American Custom Strat that is in the same quality class as the Schecter (but it's worth about $2500 so I guess it's not really in the same price class as the Schecter).

Even guitars in the $500-1000 price class should have near-perfectly level frets. They may need some fine tuning like fret-end filing/dressing, but should be at least very playable out of the box.

Let's break it down...
I have an electric guitar with 3 pups and a trem that cost me $59 new! (I can't imagine how they can do that, but that's the reality). It plays reasonably well.
Now let's upgrade everything...new pups, new hardware, new electronics, even new/better wood. So now there is $350-450 in it. Everything else that you do to it is labor. I build guitars, all by hand...no CNC, so I understand "labor". But nowadays with CNC and PLEK, most of that labor is in the finishing. So if you buy a guitar for over $1500 it darn well should be near perfect. And in my mind, there is absolutely NO excuse for an assembly-line machine-made guitar to cost more than that. If there is something unique about it and with lots of hand detail work, maybe $2000. Handmade or custom made guitars are a different thing...I'm not talking about those.

 

[GuitarDoc]

This is the original blog.

Thanks. This should be a sticky somewhere!

 

[Top-L]

Maybe you're just not as accurate with fret leveling as I am.

Or maybe you've never paid to have an old favorite plekked.

 

[Top-L]

I absolutely agree. Guitars over $1000 should have near-perfect frets. I own 5 dozen guitars and regardless of purchase price I have had to do a fret job on nearly all of them. There have been a few exceptions, however. The best over-all quality guitar in every respect and by far the best fret work was on a Schecter C1. Even the fret ends were perfect (even by my standards which are OCD high). And this guitar was less than 1k (about $850 if I remember correctly, it's about 10-15 years old).

That was 15 years ago. My guess is that K guitars in that price range are no longer leveled. Shecter and LTD are the same parent company, made in the same factory. It may be a unique case where the K labor costs so much that they can't pay them to level, that an indonesian guitar may actually turn out better. Crowning jumbo frets is probably the most labor intensive part of building a guitar.

I bought three guitars in the last 2 months. The first was a 1500 Korean BC Rich guitar (paid 1300) which turned out to have horrible fretwork and/or neck. The frets and fret ends looked perfect, and to obtain that perfect look, they just didn't level them, although they did a good job on the ends. That guitar went back, but there were other issues with the guitar, both manufacturing defects and wear, that the seller did not disclose. The guitar may have had a serious neck issue, but I didn't do any measurements, it went back immediately.

Then I bought an 800 Indonesian LTD guitar (for 450 new) and it plays at the 8/10 level. The fret ends are excellent, the only issue is that the frets themselves are tarnished and need a polish. I don't know if that means the guitar was sitting in a warehouse longer, or if they leveled and crowned but didn't polish. This guitar is a steal for what I paid.

Last was the 1200 Korean LTD (that was 960). Its a pretty guitar with a nice top and ebony board. Its about the level of quality I'd expect for 1K (there are a couple dust specs in the clear). But apparently they didn't level the guitar (or the frets pulled up, still need to check that isn't the case.) The fret ends are perfect and the frets are polished. This one may go back, but I will probably level it myself.

Only conclusion I can make is that I had bad luck, or that the 2020 K guitars aren't leveled. The majority of them probably ship out more playable than the ones I received.

 

[ErikH]

I have one guitar that was Pleked at the factory, a 2009 Gibson Les Paul Traditional Pro. Plays fantastic. I've had to adjust the action to my liking and adjust the TR a time or two but other than that, can't complain. It's actually a buddy's guitar that I've had for quite a while now. I really need to buy it off him. He's just glad that it's getting played.

My MIK Dean ML Chicago Standard could use a spot leveling in the upper register but it plays great otherwise. It's from 2013.

Fretwork is one area that I have not gotten in to just yet. I've got a Silvertone Strat copy here that I could practice on once I get some files. It's a surprisingly nice guitar, neck is comfortable, body is solid. Needs better tuners.

 

[Top-L]

Fretwork is one area that I have not gotten in to just yet. I've got a Silvertone Strat copy here that I could practice on once I get some files. It's a surprisingly nice guitar, neck is comfortable, body is solid. Needs better tuners.

The thing that scared me away from it, honestly was the prices charged by Stewmac. They would have you believe you need hundreds of dollars in tools to do it.

You can get a decent set of diamond files from ebay for $10. And I got my leveling beam and 3M tape roll from Amazon (around 30ish if I remember). A fret rocker is pretty cheap, and you can get a steel straight edge from Home Depot (you can DIY notch one side of it to fit over the frets so you can measure the straightness of the board.) Only other thing you need is masking tape and an assortment of Scotchbrite polishing pads and sandpaper.

 

[ErikH]

The thing that scared me away from it, honestly was the prices charged by Stewmac. They would have you believe you need hundreds of dollars in tools to do it.

You can get a decent set of diamond files from ebay for $10. And I got my leveling beam and 3M tape roll from Amazon (around 30ish if I remember). A fret rocker is pretty cheap, and you can get a steel straight edge from Home Depot (you can DIY notch one side of it to fit over the frets so you can measure the straightness of the board.) Only other thing you need is masking tape and an assortment of Scotchbrite polishing pads and sandpaper.

Yeah, their prices are a little high for some items. I've gotten a full set of nut files from them and glad I did. Great files. I don't have an eBay account any longer (hadn't for years) so I'd be getting from Stew-Mac or Amazon if there's any there.

 

[Artie]

But nowadays with CNC and PLEK, most of that labor is in the finishing.

I was just discussing this yesterday with my luthier. That's what he said. He said that PLEK does about 10% of the work for 90% of the cost. So why not just do the whole thing by hand?

I've gotten a full set of nut files from them and glad I did. Great files.

I got those too. Nice little files. Also, the little double-ended wrench set for pots and jacks and things. I just hate their shipping charges.

 

[Top-L]

I was just discussing this yesterday with my luthier. That's what he said. He said that PLEK does about 10% of the work for 90% of the cost. So why not just do the whole thing by hand?

I can respect a luthier who doesn't own a Plek who says that. He has to stand behind his work, but at the same time, I realize he is only saying that because he wants my business.

Plek uses laser sighting to completely measure the neck under tension and computer decides optimum height everywhere on the neck. I just don't see how a hand done fret level will be as accurate under all circumstances. Rather, to get that level of accuracy would require the luthier to always do 100% work, and because time is money, we know that never happens.

I have more faith in a computer controlled robot than I do that your typical luthier would give his A-work on my $400 shredstick, especially when he has a backlog of work.

 

[The Dali]

So, after all that, the guitar is NOT a dud?

 

[Clint 55]

I'm not saying my levels are more precise than a plek. However they are comfy with round ends, and every single note plays perfectly regardless of the action which is the end goal anyway. I'd love to see a plek'd neck to examine its work.

 

[Top-L]

So, after all that, the guitar is NOT a dud?

After putting it on the bench and measuring, I found that the frets were not leveled. I thought it was a dud, it kinda still is, but its fixable.

I realize this was just a little harmless baiting on your part.

 

[nexion218]

I'm still convinced the the PLEK is only as good as the operator. Sure, it'll do perfectly what it is programmed to do with laser sight and all the sci-fi stuff. And also that is the point where it can go south: it does exactly what it is programmed to do. I'm with Doc and Tnilc on this one: a good luthier will /can do a level that is at least on par with a well setup PLEK. There are two combinations to avaoid here: a PLEK with a subpar operator and handtools with a subpar luthier.

 

[kcrknp]

I bought an M-400 a couple years ago, got it new for about 400 so it was a good deal. The frets were just terrible, after trying to set it up a few times I realized the frets had to be bad. I was getting buzz on the open high E and B strings no matter what I did. Took it to my local luthier and had him check it out and he said it needed a full fret level, I had him do it since I got a good deal on the guitar. Now it plays like a dream! Sounds like you're in a similar situation. The LTD factory must not have put a high priority on fretwork, everything else on the guitar was and has been great.

 

[Top-L]

I'm still convinced the the PLEK is only as good as the operator. Sure, it'll do perfectly what it is programmed to do with laser sight and all the sci-fi stuff. And also that is the point where it can go south: it does exactly what it is programmed to do. I'm with Doc and Tnilc on this one: a good luthier will /can do a level that is at least on par with a well setup PLEK. There are two combinations to avaoid here: a PLEK with a subpar operator and handtools with a subpar luthier.

The advantage is that measurements are taken under tension and the frets are cut exactly the right amount, right where they need to be, taking into account the actual relief (neck twist, etc) of the neck.

With a traditional level, the neck is straightened, it is leveled, and then the neck develops whatever relief/twist it does when strings are put on.

On a perfect neck, there will be little difference, but there isn't a perfect neck.

I believe a hand level can go as low as a PLEK, but there will be a sacrifice of tone in certain areas. If you play with an action that is just fractionally higher, you won't notice a difference. IOW, if you are not a shredder playing everywhere on the neck, you may not notice a difference. Or if you have a "perfect" neck, you are less likely to notice a difference.

I have been satisfied with my own level jobs for the most part. The amount of fret material lost on older well used guitars is a concern with hand level. And also the amount of time it takes.

Cost, shipping, and wait time is what stops me from getting all my guitars plekked.

 

[GuitarDoc]

The advantage is that measurements are taken under tension and the frets are cut exactly the right amount, right where they need to be, taking into account the actual relief (neck twist, etc) of the neck..

There is the problem that makes PLEK no better than a good hand job (sorry about the vernacular)..."under tension".
Under WHAT tension?! That which would be from 8-42 strings? 10-46? 11-55? There are a hundred string sets which will each create different tension. The PLEK operator has no clue what strings will be used on any particular guitar.

However there is very little change in the bow of a good neck when strings are put on, so this argument is moot.

Plus, since a good neck actually will not change much from the string tension anyway, if a luthier does a fret job on a neck with no strings on it, it will be fine after strings are brought up to tune. Any possible bow can be easily corrected with the truss rod...if needed. There was a time when guitars didn't have truss rods. Some fine guitars even today do not have truss rods and their necks remain perfect.

As was mentioned, no matter how accurate the actual PLEK machine is (with its lasers and all), it is still only as good as its programmer. So it still comes down to the human element after all.

And from ACTUAL experience, I can tell you that of all the guitars that have been on my desk that have been PLEK'ed, every one of them still needed some human hands on finishing to make them perfect.

PLEK is NOT the do all end all solution to fret leveling/finishing, in spite of all the hype it gets.

 

[Top-L]

There is the problem that makes PLEK no better than a good hand job (sorry about the vernacular)..."under tension".
Under WHAT tension?! That which would be from 8-42 strings? 10-46? 11-55? There are a hundred string sets which will each create different tension. The PLEK operator has no clue what strings will be used on any particular guitar.

They actually do know. Most have you send them a set of strings it will be set up with.

The relief every neck develops under tension is different. Some have backbow, front bow, twists, etc. The plek is the best way to handle these differences.

It can't be argued logically that hand done work has the same potential as plek under all circumstances.

What is more likely is that with YOUR personal playing style and setup, YOU can't tell a difference between plek and hand level. What is probably equally likely is that you have never paid to have a guitar plekked that was previously leveled by a top luthier.

Maybe you played a plekked Gibson a couple years after the plek was done? (Neck changes over time.) People who are against plek usually fall into that category. I dont know anyone who actually paid for a plek that was dissatisfied with the fretwork.

For this argument to continue, you have to describe more about your situation, which guitar did you pay to have plekked? Why were you underwhelmed? etc.