Tone? Have to say I agree with a lot of this

[NegativeEase]

I'm playing with Reaper some right now, trying to pick software to do some recording again, been years. What would you recommend? I was looking at Reaper for the price, don't want to make a big investment, Harrison Mixbus is on sale for $99 right now, I like the analog style interface, but it seems to be on the fringe so not a ton of info about it. I don't want to do a PT subscription, Ableton seems to be more geared toward performance than recording. I have PT First, Reaper, Ableton Lite, Mixbus demo (that I'm having some issues getting going, so questioning it), Tracktion Waveform (I used Tracktion years ago), and a few others. In the end, it's digital audio, it's going to depend on what you use to get it into the computer more than the software used (although Mixbus does claim an analog sound, which has to be a manipulation of the digital data, a built in effect if you will).

And while we're at it, GGD or EZdrummer?

Sorry for the OT, just some questions NE's post raised.

503 error wouldn't let me edit in the rest:

​​​​​​maybe 90% of everything I do is PT, and most every studio I work in or design in is PT first so I don't have a lot of reason to use the others regularly. I own Cubase and Logic -both killer, I have Luna but haven't gotten into it. Ableton's strength is songwriting and MIDI -but I don't use it much because PT has those features now.

 

[GuitarStv]

Technique can be taught though. My fingers are the same now as when I started playing, but I know how to do different things.

If you know how to do different things with them, then I'd say that your fingers aren't at all the same as they were when you started playing. Your fingers are more accurate, they're stronger, and your mind knows how to control them better to translate the music in your head into the sounds you hear. That's a huge difference!

If I had brief clips of a few different hair metal guitarists playing JB-loaded super Strats through hot-rodded Marshalls, could you tell which guitarist was which? Probably not, but you’d know it was a JB through a Marshall each time. Ditto with nu-metal players with PRS or Ibanez guitars through Mesa Recto amps, or metalcore guys playing EMG-equipped guitars through TS-boosted Peavy 5150s/ 6505s. Different guys playing similar equipment will sound similar.

Again, I think that this depends an awful lot on what is being played. Nu-metal/metalcore? Yeah . . . with the gain up that high, you either get a not to sound or not to. Nuance and subtlety of touch aren't really demonstrated in the genre. There's not much personal in the playing . . . just the attack of the instrument.

Bizarrely, I think I agree with Ted Nugent on the different hair metal guitarists playing the same rigs' question though:

"I was a bad motherfucker in 1978, and I heard all about this Eddie Van Halen guy. And they're out there doing a soundcheck - we want them to have a good checking of their sound, and I'm listening to the guys and, of course, they're just world-class musicians, Alex [Van Halen, drums] and Michael [Anthony, bass] and Eddie and David [Lee Roth, vocals], and they're out there with this brand new thing called Van Halen, and it was a monster. And I'm listening to this screamy high end - he [Eddie] had a little bit of phaser going on, he had some kind of electronic warfare going through his amplifier that he completely tore apart and rebuilt - he's just an electronic maniac. And I listen, and I'm going, 'God damn, what kind of an instrument and an amp does that son of a bitch use?!'

I went out to watch those guys and they went to talk about the tour, the music, the inspirations, and the tone, and he goes, 'How did you get that Byrdland to sound like that?' And I saw my Byrdland right there, and I said, 'Well, here, plug this son of a bitch in, we'll keep it in my Fender amps.' And of course, my Byrdland feeds into that low volume, the Byrdland wants to eat your phase.

So, Eddie's playing, but once he got out of the feedback - there's a feedback that will literally eat the notes you're trying to play. The feedback is so strong, you could go for a scale in the key of B, but the feedback is resonating in the key of D and there's not a damn thing you can do about it. So he repositioned himself, he started pulling these mystical licks, and it sounded just like him, but out of my rig. And I grabbed his Strat - his mutilated, bastardized Strat - and I started playing 'Dog Eat Dog' or 'Cat Scratch [Fever]' or something, and it sounded just like me.

If music is anything, it's not only the universal language, not just the universal communication for people anywhere in the world at any time, but it's also a personal execution of the musician's sonic vision.

And when you practice your balls off, when you dedicate yourself to be the very best you can be, which describes every musician that you and I love...

It's you, not even the Fenders or the Gibsons. It's you coming through your musical vision and attack of the instrument. You could have an amp and a guitar, don't change any of the settings and put 10 of your favorite guitar players on that set and it will sound just like each individual." - https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/new...d_strat_recalls_1st_reaction_to_the_band.html

 

[Phantasmagoria]

Just like you have generic sounding pickup's and amps's that lack their own character, you have generic sounding players (in 'hair metal', metalcore or w/e) that lack their own character (lots of them). If anything players sounding the same using the same rig just goes to show that that player is the #1 link in the chain ,,if they're generic and lack individuality (play the same licks the same way etc using generic techniques everyone uses) then chances are they going to sound the same as the next guy who does the same thing using the same rig...

That's why Joe stump (yngwie clone) actually sounds pretty far removed from Yngwie. despite the Strat & the Marshall & most of the same licks...the difference in their tone is the fingers..

And it's not only with leads or low gain. It's also the reason why Jon Shaffer's triplets sound like they do through his setup (and you & I won't come close using his rig..). If you think fingers don't impart tone ..well that explains so much :laugh2:

 

[Bogner]

I'm playing with Reaper some right now, trying to pick software to do some recording again, been years. What would you recommend? I was looking at Reaper for the price, don't want to make a big investment, Harrison Mixbus is on sale for $99 right now, I like the analog style interface, but it seems to be on the fringe so not a ton of info about it. I don't want to do a PT subscription, Ableton seems to be more geared toward performance than recording. I have PT First, Reaper, Ableton Lite, Mixbus demo (that I'm having some issues getting going, so questioning it), Tracktion Waveform (I used Tracktion years ago), and a few others. In the end, it's digital audio, it's going to depend on what you use to get it into the computer more than the software used (although Mixbus does claim an analog sound, which has to be a manipulation of the digital data, a built in effect if you will).

And while we're at it, GGD or EZdrummer?

Sorry for the OT, just some questions NE's post raised.

Everybody's opinions on DAWS being better than this DAW or that DAW is usually based on their own personal experience and how they process and go about things. We are all different. The best advice I can give you is check out the free samples of several and see which one cooperates / interacts with you personally on how you like to work. They key is making music, not having to work a system that kills creativity and costs you time when the ideas are flowing and you need to be playing instead of "engineering" things. If reaper works for you and you are used to it and know how to use it then stick with it. Who cares what anybody else thinks. The key in all of this is knowing the ins and outs of the DAW so you can maximize your tool belt to help you make music. It makes ZERO sense to have all the bells and whistles if you can't - don't - won't use them. Presonus has impressed me as has Motu with their new wares. There are a lot of solid options out there for sure.

Regarding EZ Drummer or GGD...both are excellent. There are others as well. Bogren Digital makes quality stuff as well. That said, it comes down to what sounds you gravitate towards and what they offer in their packages that is usable to you. Nolly has amazing ears but so do some of these other people putting out packages. Superior Drummer 3.0 has a lot of great stuff on it and some of the additional metal/prog packs are absolutely incredible. Tue Madsen has some great stuff as does Mark Lewis. Can't go wrong with any of them. It just depends on what you want to spend and what you get that works for you for that money. I am looking into a lot of this stuff too for a new studio rig for my new place when it is finished and there are a lot of great options.

 

[Bogner]

Mic, Mic placement, Speakers, Cabinet have the most impact on tone IMO.

 

[devastone]

Bogner - ​​​​​​I understand that experience highly influences opinions on DAWs, it's been years since I've done much recording, my favorite at the time was Logic, back when it ran on Windows before Apple bought it. After that I used Tracktion, pretty simple to use. But that was years ago and I'm getting back into it, hopefully, just looking for some opinions (back to my first statement) and don't want to spend tons of time sorting through demos but that might be the best place to re-start.

NE - I looked up UA Luna, seems to be exclusive to Apollo interfaces and Mac only, neither of which I am using. I have a M-Audio Air 192|14, probably not as good as the Apollo, but does what I need for now.

 

[CaptainWhizz]

That Nugent quote was about musical identity, not tone. He was playing his songs through Eddie’s rig, so it sounded like Nugent’s plating through Eddies’s guitar tone.

If all the metalcore players are indistinguishable despite having different fingers, then fingers don’t make the tone. If a bunch of big-band swing players sound the same with simple rigs playing the same song the same way, fingers don’t make the tone. If metalcore players learned to play the big-band swing tunes through the swing guys’ rigs, their fingers wouldn’t be defining the tone.

If Ted Nugent and Eddie Van Halen had played the exact same piece of music the same way through the same gear (not adding their own style or interpretation to it), the guitar tone would be the same.

 

[CaptainWhizz]

Don’t forget, if you change the guitarist, and also change what they’re playing, you’re changing two variables, so you can’t prove which variable is having what effect.

 

[LLL]

I looked up UA Luna, seems to be exclusive to Apollo interfaces and Mac only

That's 100% correct.

I have an Apollo 6x and PC. No LUNA for moi.

 

[Phantasmagoria]

That Nugent quote was about musical identity, not tone. He was playing his songs through Eddie’s rig, so it sounded like Nugent’s plating through Eddies’s guitar tone.

If all the metalcore players are indistinguishable despite having different fingers, then fingers don’t make the tone. If a bunch of big-band swing players sound the same with simple rigs playing the same song the same way, fingers don’t make the tone. If metalcore players learned to play the big-band swing tunes through the swing guys’ rigs, their fingers wouldn’t be defining the tone.

If Ted Nugent and Eddie Van Halen had played the exact same piece of music the same way through the same gear (not adding their own style or interpretation to it), the guitar tone would be the same.

I was equating generic sounding players with generic sounding pickups. It does'nt matter who does the playing because switching between identityless/generic sounding players is like changing one characterless generic sounding pup for another which makes little/no difference to the tone.

On the other hand If you had one player in there who imparted something unique to the tone with his fingers (for instance how hard you play, changing/varying pick angle attack as you go along, varying pressure on strings which add nuances to playing and tone which can't always be described but are unique to a player and often make him sound like he does, vibrato, bends, adding various finger embellishments scrapes slides etc,,, stuff like that which imo is very much an essential part of one's overall tone..it's what makes Steve Vai instantly recognizable as Vai even if he was playing Twinkle Twinkle Little Star through a Gorilla amp) that player wouuld immediately sound different even if he was playing the same thing w/ absolutely the same gear as the generic metalcore or w/e gang - only because of the difference in tone that he was imparting with his fingers.

For once I agree w/ GuitarStv in the sense that "tone" and "timbre" of sound are two very different things. A player's fingers and how he/she uses them can have a huge impact on their tone. More than anything that what makes them sound like them often despite using different rigs and gear through their careers. When you talk about a player's "tone" you're not talking about the noise his amp makes if he whacked his strings w/ chopsticks...

 

[Aceman]

Turn down the distortion and get into classic rock level distortion, and you'll hear actual/bigger differences between tubes, pickups, woods, even pick material, etc

when I want to really show pickup differences to someone, I run them into my Pro Jr. set clean. You can tell output, EQ, and all sorts of things like that.

 

[CaptainWhizz]

vibrato, bends, adding various finger embellishments scrapes slides etc,,,

So you mean if he’s playing the music differently. If two people are playing “Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star”, and one plays it exactly as written, and then Vai plays it differently, that’s not comparing like-for-like. That’s adding in a difference other than just the player’s fingers.
Vibrato and bends, for example, change the pitch of the note, so how do you prove that the change in tone is due to Vai’s fingers, and not that anyone playing the notes that way would sound the same?

The Seymour Duncan website info on the Slash set says that Slash couldn’t get newer Les Pauls to sound like his old Les Pauls when he played them with APH-1s in, so the APH-2s were developed. Slash’s fingers did not make the new guitars sound like the old ones.

I saw a rig rundown video for Billy Gibbons, where the tech explained that Billy had a wide variety of guitars, but didn’t want his tone to change when he switched between them. The tech showed a programmable rack EQ with settings for each guitar to make them sound the same. Billy’s fingers could not make those guitars sound the same.

 

[CaptainWhizz]

So you mean if he’s playing the music differently. If two people are playing “Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star”, and one plays it exactly as written, and then Vai plays it differently, that’s not comparing like-for-like. That’s adding in a difference other than just the player’s fingers.
Vibrato and bends, for example, change the pitch of the note, so how do you prove that the change in tone is due to Vai’s fingers, and not that anyone playing the notes that way would sound the same?

The Seymour Duncan website info on the Slash set says that Slash couldn’t get newer Les Pauls to sound like his old Les Pauls when he played them with APH-1s in, so the APH-2s were developed. Slash’s fingers did not make the new guitars sound like the old ones.

I saw a rig rundown video for Billy Gibbons, where the tech explained that Billy had a wide variety of guitars, but didn’t want his tone to change when he switched between them. The tech showed a programmable rack EQ with settings for each guitar to make them sound the same. Billy’s fingers could not make those guitars sound the same.

If the fingers make the tone, why do people buy different gear? Why are there Tone knobs on guitars, pedals, etc?

 

[Phantasmagoria]

I just said they're (players) the first link in the tone chain (and the most significant.... 'cuz the fact is It's not the pickup or amp or speaker that makes a player stand out or sound like who they are) . The other stuff (pedals , guitar's pickups, cab's speaker's mics etc..) also help establish a players identity.. but they're all secondary. Imo you can't separate a player's feel from his tone. His feel (not what he's playing, but how he plays it) is a huge part of his tone. It's like plugging into an amp & then switching it off...or disconnecting your guitar pickups....

An amp's tone is standard. It sounds like it does.

With a player's tone (which Glenn was talking about in his video..ie, "tone's in the fingers" or not) ...that's a different matter. You can't discount the player (and his fingers) himself and their impact on tone.

 

[Phantasmagoria]

Slash’s fingers did not make the new guitars sound like the old ones.

Billy’s fingers could not make those guitars sound the same.

Now take Slash and Billy themselves out of the Equation & check the tonal difference then..

 

[CaptainWhizz]

Now take Slash and Billy themselves out of the Equation & check the tonal difference then..

Then it sounds like someone else playing with their guitar tones.


If Slash is recording, and plays one bar of music, which is just hammer/ pulls at the 12th/13th fret on the B string. He then does another take, this time using vibrato on the 12th fret on the B string.
If you think his guitar tone is the same in those two takes, then you think variation in playing expression has no effect on tone.
If you think his guitar tone is different in those two takes, then the only thing that has changed is what is being played, not the fingers, so the only thing that can have caused the variation in tone is the change in how the music was being played.

 

[Phantasmagoria]

Yeah but in both cases it's played by Slash. And if he uses different techniques.(hammer-on's vs vibrato) it's obviously not going to sound like his previous take. But it will sound like 'him' vs.say if Kirk Hammett played the same thing w/ hammer-on's. In which case the player's the "variation" and it will be obvious and different.

 

[Phantasmagoria]

Then it sounds like someone else playing with their guitar tones.

.

Depending on the player it could very easily be totally unrecognizable as anything Billy or Slash would play ..despite the gear used & licks being the same

 

[CaptainWhizz]

Yeah but in both cases it's played by Slash. And if he uses different techniques.(hammer-on's vs vibrato) it's obviously not going to sound like his previous take. But it will sound like 'him' vs.say if Kirk Hammett played the same thing w/ hammer-on's. In which case the player's the "variation" and it will be obvious and different.

But variation means changing the piece of music, so two different pieces of music would sound different.
If Kirk Hammett played the piece the exact same way through the exact same rig, it would have the same tone.
If Kirk Hammett played the piece differently through the exact same rig, then two variables have changed.

If two guitarists interpret a piece of music differently, the difference is not in their fingers, it’s in their style. Their style can come across regardless of the rig they’re using, but the rig/ signal chain will determine their tone.

Hammett through Slash’s rig will sound like Hammett’s phrasing with Slash’s rig’s tone.

 

[Phantasmagoria]

My point is that in reality Kirk Hammet won't play the exact same way & can't play the exact same way as Slash..so one of the variables IS the player himself (ie Slash vs Hammett). In the real world that's a real variable that can't be wished away or made to disappear or ignored & discounted (hence 'tone is in the fingers') and Hammett's finger's are different enough from Slash's that he probably won't sound anything like Slash (or very marginally like him) w/ or w/o Slash's rig...