Treble bleed mod for actives?

misterwhizzy

Well-known member
Is it even possible? Do the values differ? Is it a bad idea in the first place? Thoughts? Experiences?

I'm running through a single-channel amp, and I want to be able to switch to clean just by changing pickups, but keeping some reasonable amount of gain on the bridge and going clean on the neck requires the neck volume to be pretty low. And there just isn't enough treble there when that happens. I guess the treble bleed is the best option, but there doesn't seem to be much internet knowledge on it for actives (Blackouts, as the case may be). Any ideas?
 
Re: Treble bleed mod for actives?

Interesting. I have never had a lack of treble problem when using active pickups/systems on either a guitar or bass. Maybe I never had to turn the volume down that low on any of them. I am curious if anyone knows the answer to this as well.
 
Re: Treble bleed mod for actives?

I would expect the component values to remain the same, as the frequencies you are trying to pass remain the same.
 
Re: Treble bleed mod for actives?

The very nature of an op-amp handling the volume, no treble loss is occurring, hence no need for a "treble bleed".

HTH,
 
Re: Treble bleed mod for actives?

Whizzy. Are you using EMG Solderless pots or traditional, hard-wired B25k pots of the type supplied with SD Blackouts and Live Wire Classic II pickups?
 
Re: Treble bleed mod for actives?

They're 25k pots soldered. My problem is that I basically need the tone pot to go, and forgive the obvious reference, to 11, and it just isn't quite getting there. Maybe the value of the tone cap is too large?
 
Re: Treble bleed mod for actives?

I've read in Helmuth Lemme's book that if you use 250k or 500k pots with active circuitry, it will still work fine, and even retain more high end, in the same sense that 1M pots retain more high end with a passive circuit. Maybe they use 25k pots to make them attenuate more like a passive circuit.
 
Re: Treble bleed mod for actives?

i havent read the book but i wired up 500k pots with emgs a long time ago and it sounded awful and the controls didnt work properly
 
Re: Treble bleed mod for actives?

I have used 250K pots instead of 100K pots and it worked fine. I haven't used 250k or 500k pots with anything smaller than 100K. You could try going to a 50K pot though.
 
Re: Treble bleed mod for actives?

I've read in Helmuth Lemme's book that if you use 250k or 500k pots with active circuitry, it will still work fine, and even retain more high end, in the same sense that 1M pots retain more high end with a passive circuit. Maybe they use 25k pots to make them attenuate more like a passive circuit.

This isnt true of EMG's... there might be some actives out there that this is true but with those i can say from definitive experience that it isnt so.
 
Re: Treble bleed mod for actives?

I tried active pickups via pots of the resistance values associated with passive pickups. Sounded congested and gutless - like the 9v supply was drained.
 
Re: Treble bleed mod for actives?

When designing pickups at Fishman, we're measuring things through a variety of different loads. There are a lot of things interacting that have to be unpacked before I can answer the different points here, sorry if it's long. First, everyone here is right when saying treble content of an active pickup with low output impedance isn't really affected by the volume control. There are other things that can be affected, like a general sense of presence and dynamics, but that's as much dependent on the first thing your guitar's signal hits, as it is the pickup design. So I'll leave that out of the discussion.

With passive pickups, the volume flattens the resonant peak as you turn it down, shifting it such that you lose treble long before you lose bass. The treble frequencies are the first to die on a standard passive volume control. We put the treble bleed in to leak some treble back into the signal as we're turning the volume down. The trouble is, the treble we bleed back in can't possibly mimic the sound of the pickup at full volume, because it's doing nothing to mimic the resonant peak and fall off. It's indiscriminately leaking treble content, more like the way a treble shelving EQ or a High Pass Filter would look on a scope. Many players still like it because they get the treble boosted while the output falls, thus the more sparkly "Clean" sound through a distorted amp. Everything we do with a HPF on a guitar is to massage and manipulate the effect to match the pickup, the player's expectation, the way they use it, their gear, etc. There is no magic bullet where you can have a spreadsheet tell you which capacitor and whether or not to use a supporting resistor, what value, etc.

If you try to put a HPF on an active pickup, since the volume knob isn't killing treble frequencies, you'll just be left with a pure treble boost (or bass cut) when you turn the volume down, which you very well might like! I would not like it personally, but I don't often play the kind of gigs where I have the guitar into a one-channel mid-gain amp, and have to control everything with the volume knob. AlexR is not correct, the capacitor value would not be the same. Its dependent on the impedance loads.

Now we get to active pickups and pot values. Since the pot resistance is primarily controlling amplitude, not altering resonant peaks or shunting treble, then the pot value has less of an effect on the tone but more on the volume. In Jeremy's case, its possible that too much EMG is, just too much EMG :) The tone changes a little, but the volume pot taper changes too. It's awkward. All the volume is bunched up in one end of the travel.

Here's the interesting part: Since its dependent on the output impedance of the pickups, there are times when it makes more of a difference. EMG's traditional pickups have (I believe) a 10k output resistor. Whether you use a Vol/Tone, vs only a Volume, or no controls at all, the output changes. In the case of the X series however, (I believe) they use a 2k output resistor. This means the volume remains more constant regardless of whether you had 1, 2, or more potentiometers in the circuit. The Fishman Fluence have a 2k output resistor as well. So its more consistent. In A/B tests, however, you have to make sure you have the same number of pots in the signal path or you could be fooled into thinking one was louder than the other.

This could explain why some people use stock 250 or 500k pots with EMG's and are perfectly happy with the results, and for others it's terrible. It's all about the gain structure.
 
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