Tribute to MJ wound Alnico II pro from 1986 to 2013

[gibsonclassic2001]

Re: Tribute to MJ wound Alnico II pro from 1986 to 2013

R7 With double black butyrate bobbins.
1986 aph.

Low reading neck 7.15k
Hollow woody tone.
Basis 8.1k = close to modern production.

 

[King IzzO)))]

Re: Tribute to MJ wound Alnico II pro from 1986 to 2013

The offsets seem more prominent on the older pickups, in my experience, I've got a recent jazzB that reads 4.3 on the screw coil and 3.9 on the slug though.

 

[gibsonclassic2001]

Re: Tribute to MJ wound Alnico II pro from 1986 to 2013

Bobbin +heat /cool down over 30 years might be the key to that slug bobbin often reads lower.
Less strech.

So i bet it starten closer.

My nylon MJ's from 88 are dead on.
Its like 3.96/3.93 bridge and 3.65/3.67 neck.

 

[the guy who invented fire]

Re: Tribute to MJ wound Alnico II pro from 1986 to 2013

Wow...I didn't know I was in a pissing contest with anybody.

I'm just trying to point out that a long time forum question has been answered by Evan and I found that interesting.

Anyway...carry on and just remember to have fun!

 

[LesStrat]

Re: Tribute to MJ wound Alnico II pro from 1986 to 2013

MJ is engaging in a misinformation campaign:?::scratchch

Who knew she had time for such trivial matters:question:

Great story, Evan. It is always interesting to hear stories from the inner-workings of the SD factory.

 

[LesStrat]

Re: Tribute to MJ wound Alnico II pro from 1986 to 2013

BTW, Calling SD staff liars on their on website is in poor form, especially with no evidence to support such claims.

 

[gibsonclassic2001]

Re: Tribute to MJ wound Alnico II pro from 1986 to 2013

Evan

Ok, lets talk magnets.
Almost a ll my old magnets are really weak.
Lost alot of juice over the year.

Will recharge them soon.
But the 2 that still read high sound different to modern duncan A2 from aph.
And comparing to stewmac the vintage and modern dont match either.

Stewmac is closer to the old degaussed.
The modern is strong and almost glassy sounding.

The modern are fullt charged. No doubt.
What about the old.
New Way of charging +less cobalt = the tone difference?

 

[King IzzO)))]

Re: Tribute to MJ wound Alnico II pro from 1986 to 2013

I would chalk that up to the old ones being weak.

 

[gibsonclassic2001]

Re: Tribute to MJ wound Alnico II pro from 1986 to 2013

I would chalk that up to the old ones being weak.

The set from nylon bobbin 87-88 read the same as the stewmac.
But sound different.

So it got to be more to tone then just gauss levels.
Otherwise weak a5 would sound like strong A2

 

[King IzzO)))]

Re: Tribute to MJ wound Alnico II pro from 1986 to 2013

It's true!

 

[Soulcrusher_X]

Re: Tribute to MJ wound Alnico II pro from 1986 to 2013

gibsonclassic2001, I applaud you and welcome you to the board for three reasons:

1. That is a wonderful Les Paul.

2. I love that all of those pickups are of the braided-single-conductor wiring. To me, nothing looks better than a LP control cavity tastefully constructed of braided wire.

3. I like your socks.

 

[blues]

Re: Tribute to MJ wound Alnico II pro from 1986 to 2013

gibsonclassic2001 you have some nice looking Les Pauls.

Having spooled wire (titanium) for many years Im really interested in the process of winding pickups. Ive done layer level winding. Hand winding ( thats where you do the traversing) maybe some times you create the tension by holding the wire. Other forms where you set the traverse,tension,speed and let it wind on its own. Some customers wanted a certain amount of feet on a spool,other a certain amount of weight. One does not always equal the other.

The diameter of the wire can be a factor. The wire being used is a certain diameter. That wire being used has a certain tolerance. For example, if your wire is .020" that you are useing. The tolerance maybe be +/- .0002". The spool you are starting with may be used to wind several other spools. Or in the case of pickups the bobbins. If your starting spool has 15 pounds of wire on it the wire may start out as .0202" and end up .0198" by the time your done with it. Thats because of the wire drawing process. You wind x-amount if wire onto a spool or bobbin. Say if you get for example a 1000 bobbins made from your 15 pound spool those bobbins would be slightly different from the first one to the last one.

The traverse,how close the wire or how much space on the spool the wire is between each turn from one end of the spool or bobbin to the other end can also be slightly effected by the diameter of the wire. How much wire fits on each layer being wound.

The tension,how tight or loose the wire layes on the spool or bobbin. If your tension is to loose it may effect the way the wire lays on the spool of bobbin. If it is to tight it could stretch or break the wire.

Im also wondering if tensile strength and elongation are important or if it even matters. Ive done alot of testing work with wire.

I wonder what specs the wire used to make SD pickups are when they order the wire from their suppliers. (I dont think I would get that answer)

With the work I was doing all the above factors could effect how full the spool looked. Some looked more full looking like there was more wire on the spool and some looked less full. In other words some spools looked like they had more or less wire on the when they all had the Same amount of feet or wire wound on them.

I would like to know how these above factors would influence the sound of a pickup? What would and what would not be acceptable from bobbin to bobbin? Im thinking back when Gibson was making their PAF pickups they had varying resistances because of the varying factors that im talking about. Also the way their winding machines worked. A little less precise.

This all may sound anal to most of you but im thinking different style pickups may be a bit more than just winding a certain amount of feet or turns on a bobbin and different magnets. Im thinking the SD custom shop pickup winders may have a few different techniques in their bag of tricks.

Im sorry if I went off on a tangent and im not trying to highjack this thread but I think it relates to the OP original post and finding about his pickups.

Besides building guitars I think winding custom pickups would be a dream job for me. Whats that old saying? If you love what you do you will never work a day in your life.

 

[gibsonclassic2001]

Re: Tribute to MJ wound Alnico II pro from 1986 to 2013

gibsonclassic2001, I applaud you and welcome you to the board for three reasons:

1. That is a wonderful Les Paul.

2. I love that all of those pickups are of the braided-single-conductor wiring. To me, nothing looks better than a LP control cavity tastefully constructed of braided wire.

3. I like your socks.

HAHA!

Damn jolly socks.
Some teenage girls sold me a bunch to sponsor their school trip.
Not my hard rock socks.

Btw. All info is good info as long as its about pickups, MJ and Seymour.

 

[gibsonclassic2001]

Re: Tribute to MJ wound Alnico II pro from 1986 to 2013

Ok, this is one strange pickup.
Got all parts from a aph1 but it reads 7.6k and not 7.1 as the seller told me.
Screw coil 3.96=normal bridge coil
Slug coil 3.65 = normal neck coil

So the tolerance made this a neck/bridge hybrid.

Found a ”mystery” pickup that I bought online.

But I bet 100$ it’s a 1986 APHINJ and not a "SH1N" as the permanent marker says
SH1N sticker is a bit smaller ~half the size.
Bobbins with square hole (not Square with ring like 59n) and correct material = 1986
Long leg big logo = 1986
APH1 86-88 wire
And notice the large sticker glue residue pattern on the back = matches APH1NJ sticker
And it reads ~7.1k
So it matches all the characteristics of a 1986 APH1NJ.

Any thoughts of my theories from Lt Kojak and the rest of the forum vintage crew?

 

[gibsonclassic2001]

Re: Tribute to MJ wound Alnico II pro from 1986 to 2013

1986 APH wire "red" vs 1983 Jazz wire.

Are we 100% sure the coating wont change the sound?
Plain enemel vs poly seem to make a different in high Hz.

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Tribute to MJ wound Alnico II pro from 1986 to 2013

I believe coating does change the sound, and sometimes the color of the insulation is indicative of the type of insulation and/or the thickness of the insulation. However, in this case, I can repeat what we said when we released the 35th Anniversary Jazz & JB: Poly insulation can be tinted lots of colors, or left natural. Although "red wire" can mean the coating is a certain thickness, really it just means the company specified red tint. The 35th Anniversary JB/Jazz were made with red tinted wire, for no other reason than cosmetic, in that in the early days, they used to order red tint, and later went to no tint at some point. So in theory (aside from mfg tolerances) if you analyzed those two wire types they should have the same coating material (dielectric) and same coating thickness. Only a tint difference.

 

[gibsonclassic2001]

Re: Tribute to MJ wound Alnico II pro from 1986 to 2013

Thanks Frank!

Btw here are 1986 left vs 88-2013 right.
Notice how much larger the screw head is!

 

[gibsonclassic2001]

Re: Tribute to MJ wound Alnico II pro from 1986 to 2013

I believe coating does change the sound, and sometimes the color of the insulation is indicative of the type of insulation and/or the thickness of the insulation. However, in this case, I can repeat what we said when we released the 35th Anniversary Jazz & JB: Poly insulation can be tinted lots of colors, or left natural. Although "red wire" can mean the coating is a certain thickness, really it just means the company specified red tint. The 35th Anniversary JB/Jazz were made with red tinted wire, for no other reason than cosmetic, in that in the early days, they used to order red tint, and later went to no tint at some point. So in theory (aside from mfg tolerances) if you analyzed those two wire types they should have the same coating material (dielectric) and same coating thickness. Only a tint difference.

How come that the 3 No logo jazz i own all got the no tint wire and polished magnet when the anniversary got red wire rough cast magnet?
When did Seymour introduce the red wire?
Pre 85 its no tint copper color.
86 more red
87-88 its really blood red.

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Tribute to MJ wound Alnico II pro from 1986 to 2013

How come that the 3 No logo jazz i own all got the no tint wire and polished magnet when the anniversary got red wire rough cast magnet?
When did Seymour introduce the red wire?
Pre 85 its no tint copper color.
86 more red
87-88 its really blood red.

I don't think there was a specific time they "switched" from red tint to clear, and I can't comment on whether the degree of red tint means anything about the coating. I honestly don't know if it was something that had a start and end point or if sometimes they took red and sometimes they took clear. It's entirely possible that when ordering wire, they called the manufacturer and were told "we only have red right now" or "we only have clear right now" and they said "ok we'll take it" and it is completely random. I just remember we looked at some old JB's and they were all red, we probably looked at some old Jazz's too that were red, but we decided to go with red tint wire for those just because it seemed right for an anniversary model. And this was at a meeting with Seymour and MJ at the table, they both thought it was a good idea.

I wouldn't read into the wire colors very much for poly. You can generally use the purplish brown color to identify when plain enamel is used, but if you look at the Seymour Duncan factory tour videos where they show the big rack full of wire, there are a lot of colors and color variations there. I think when we were prototyping the Slash AIIPro pickups, the wire MJ had was red tinted, but at some point when they went to the production floor it was clear tinted, and that doesn't matter at all to the sound.

I do see your photo of the screws, and yes if you look at many different pickups over the years, the screw heads will be shaped differently. Same for the slugs, some will be tapered and tumbled, some will be crisp and flat.

 

[gibsonclassic2001]

Re: Tribute to MJ wound Alnico II pro from 1986 to 2013

I don't think there was a specific time they "switched" from red tint to clear, and I can't comment on whether the degree of red tint means anything about the coating. I honestly don't know if it was something that had a start and end point or if sometimes they took red and sometimes they took clear. It's entirely possible that when ordering wire, they called the manufacturer and were told "we only have red right now" or "we only have clear right now" and they said "ok we'll take it" and it is completely random. I just remember we looked at some old JB's and they were all red, we probably looked at some old Jazz's too that were red, but we decided to go with red tint wire for those just because it seemed right for an anniversary model. And this was at a meeting with Seymour and MJ at the table, they both thought it was a good idea.

I wouldn't read into the wire colors very much for poly. You can generally use the purplish brown color to identify when plain enamel is used, but if you look at the Seymour Duncan factory tour videos where they show the big rack full of wire, there are a lot of colors and color variations there. I think when we were prototyping the Slash AIIPro pickups, the wire MJ had was red tinted, but at some point when they went to the production floor it was clear tinted, and that doesn't matter at all to the sound.

I do see your photo of the screws, and yes if you look at many different pickups over the years, the screw heads will be shaped differently. Same for the slugs, some will be tapered and tumbled, some will be crisp and flat.

Noticed that some of my slugs got both sides tapered and some got just one side tapered with flat side up.
My 1986 aph got both sides.
The 87-88 got one side.