Unplugged...

[Aceman]

Re: Unplugged...

Sound of instrument:

Amp=50%
Pickups=30%
Guitar=15% - But a noticeable % if extreme differences (25.5 maple blot on vs 24.75 mahogany set neck)
All the rest=5%

A SuperD through a cranked Marshall 800 is gonna sound 95% the same as any guitar so equipped. A Les Paul w/ Seths vs the same LP w/ a Custom is gonna sound different through a Fender Twin on ultra clean.

 

[BriGuy1968]

Re: Unplugged...

I tend to agree with you, Gransen, about the differences one can hear versus whether or not those differences matter. I fully believe that, at the end of the day, no matter how picky we might be about our tone, the vast majority of that pickiness is lost on everyone but ourselves.

That’s OK though. One of the cool things about playing guitar is that there are so many facets with which we can become fascinated. For some guys it’s playing, for some pedals, for some pickups, for some woods... the list is nearly infinite. The fact that we find something in it to enjoy is the REAL thing that matters... no matter how picky about our tone we may or may not be.

As for the DRM versus GS debate, it seems to me that they are squaring off against one another when they should be giving each other a great big hug (how do you like THAT mental image?) [emoji12] Of COURSE the acoustic tone of the guitar is going to affect the amplified tone, and of COURSE the electronics, effects and amp are going to overpower it... but the two are not mutually exclusive of one another, especially for clean playing. They are complementary details that make up the whole.

 

[Francois]

Re: Unplugged...

Explain why an SG and a Les Paul sound different even though they both use the same pickups and hardware and have the same scale length. [emoji6].

This is a good example. The additional mass of mahogany and the maple top makes the difference.

 

[Francois]

Re: Unplugged...

Magnetic pickups for acoustic guitars are a terrible idea.

For a nylon classical guitar yes, but for a steel one...

 

[Francois]

Re: Unplugged...

I tend to agree with you, Gransen, about the differences one can hear versus whether or not those differences matter. I fully believe that, at the end of the day, no matter how picky we might be about our tone, the vast majority of that pickiness is lost on everyone but ourselves.

This is true not only for tone but for a lot of aspects of music. Especially if you make music "out of the box".

That’s OK though. One of the cool things about playing guitar is that there are so many facets with which we can become fascinated. For some guys it’s playing, for some pedals, for some pickups, for some woods... the list is nearly infinite. The fact that we find something in it to enjoy is the REAL thing that matters... no matter how picky about our tone we may or may not be.

It was nice to read that

 

[GuitarStv]

Re: Unplugged...

I have always said that to really understand a guitars potential, you need to listen to it acoustically, unplugged. That tells the real character of the instrument.

So how come I've got guitars where the character of the instrument unplugged is totally different from the character of the instrument through my amp? Is the sound from the amp not real? If not . . . who cares what the "real" character is, when you'll never hear it while performing?

And passive electronics can only SUBTRACT from the tone that is there. They can't add anything that does not exist.. A guitar with anemic weak highs, highly amplified is really loud, but really crappy highs.

Passive filters like your tone pot can only subtract from the frequencies that are produced by the pickup. (Although if you get into active pickups and active EQ circuits and all bets are off on that front.)

A guitar may naturally produce more of certain frequencies, but it will produce some output through most of the audible range when you plug the strings. Pickups and electronics are capable of amplifying even these very minute frequencies. That's why a low wind single coil pickup in a dark sounding guitar will brighten it up. The guitar produces fewer high frequencies, but the single coil pickup hypes those frequencies . . . so the guitar ends up sounding bright through your amp. If you use a 1 meg volume pot with the pickups rather than 250k you can probably make this guitar sound brighter than any other guitar you own through your amp . . . even though unplugged it sounds very dark.

As to whether or not it sounds crappy . . . well, I guess that's a personal judgement call. Many people love guitars that I wouldn't be interested in owning because they're looking for a different sound than I am. Different, is not better. But if you want a bright sounding guitar, I don't think it matters what the guitar sounds like acoustically if it's bright through the amplifier and you like it.

Having never done an actual blind study, I'm going to say that GuitarStv is making a really good point, but I lean more towards DavidRavenMoon on this one: there actually IS a difference in the overall tone of an SG vs a Les Paul running the same model pickups. I'm not a Gibson guy, so my experience is limited. I'm not truly capable of defending this opinion with absolute scientific fact, so I won't even try.

I believe that GuitarStv brings up a very good point about tolerances in guitar electronics, but why is it that "Les Pauls sound like a Les Paul, and SG's sound like an SG...???" They certainly aren't sorting the electronics at the factory by guitar model, are they...!?!

I'm not arguing this! Different guitars sound different. Exceptions are the rule . . . there are way too many variables to say that there's a particular sound associated with a guitar shape. Take the brightest Les Paul of 20 and the darkest SG of 20 that you play, and I bet that the SG has more low end than the Les Paul. Everything from neck thickness to wood density to minor details of construction will change how it sounds unplugged. Then the electronics totally change and shape that sound. Then the amp and effects totally change and shape that sound.

We're lucky that the unplugged sound doesn't matter . . . we can shape that sound any way that makes us happy.

Also...and bearing in mind that I'd have to look up the formula's...when you start doing the math on "10% tolerance" on a capacitor, you end up with what my first semester electronics teacher said was an absolutely negligible amount for most practical applications; and yes, filtering frequencies was the name of the game. Resisters are a totally different ball game, because of Ohm's Law and the direct effect that resistance has on current, so those often require a tighter tolerance. Which makes your point about the pots valid. BUT, even then, it's not at all RADICALLY different going from 500K to either 450K or 550K. There's clearly a bigger difference between 450K and 550K, but it's still highly HIGHLY likely that the difference can be filed away as "Meh, whatever."

This is an opinion. Everyone's got one, and they all stink. Way ahead of you on that one. The reason for this opinion is that if there was a big enough difference, then guitar manufacturers would have tightened the belt another notch a LONG time ago due to complaints from the anal retentive customers we often tend to be. Plus, I can almost remember some this one from vocational school (and now we're up to third semester...rolled my car, got a DUI, coasted through the rest of the semester, failed, and dropped out), look at the frequencies that we're dealing with, and the effect of changing from 450K to 550K ohms. Then compare that to the human audible range AND sensitivity to changes. My first thought is that there's only a small percentage of people on earth who can pass a blind test on this one.

Think of bending notes. If you're just sitting there and it's like, "Okay, this is a C, and now it's a C#." Use your tuner, and a decent guitar player will hit it dead. Now start jamming. How close are you now...??? And can anyone in the audience really notice if you're a few cents flat or sharp, even if you hold that note for long enough for it to truly register in their brains...???

THAT is the level of difference between 450K and 550K ohms in a volume pot when talking about which frequencies are actually being combed out or left in. And THAT'S why they still put "crappy tolerance" pots in a guitar.

Again, I haven't done the math, but I did go to school (and have nothing to show for it), and this fits right in with what we were being taught about how much we should care about the tolerances of standard "solder-in" components when the frequencies aren't at, like, AT LEAST megahertz, and more like gigahertz and beyond.

I'm not saying that different tolerance electrical parts make all the difference in the world either . . . but they do make some difference, and that difference is audible. And I'd argue that as little difference as they make, it's way more important than the unplugged sound of the guitar.

 

[Gransen]

Re: Unplugged...

Sound of instrument:

Amp=50%
Pickups=30%
Guitar=15% - But a noticeable % if extreme differences (25.5 maple blot on vs 24.75 mahogany set neck)
All the rest=5%

A SuperD through a cranked Marshall 800 is gonna sound 95% the same as any guitar so equipped. A Les Paul w/ Seths vs the same LP w/ a Custom is gonna sound different through a Fender Twin on ultra clean.

I am SO glad that you posted this, because this - to me - is a valid argument. I've seen a video where a guy bought a $49 guitar brand new, plugged it into a Mesa Boogie, and WOW, I TOTALLY NEED THAT GUITAR BECAUSE IT'S THE MOST AWESOME THING I'VE EVER HEARD IN MY LIFE..!!!

Probably not the guitar.

Now lets start comparing apples to apples, and that's where I come back to my thought process regarding "Which Is More Important, Amps Or Pickups...???"

In the army, the officers are the brains, the sergeants are the backbone, and the privates are the muscles. Everyone is doing THEIR OWN JOB. It's the job of the pickups to send a signal to the amp, and then it's the amp's job to alter the waveforms presented to it and send it to the speaker. I say that the pickups are the sergeants, and the amps are the officers. In the army, there is a line in the sand between the duties of the officers and the sergeants. So, the pickups have THEIR job, and the amps have THEIR job. The job of the pickups is to "collect the signals and send them on" to the officers who then make decisions on what to do next; thus making the pickups the sergeants of the guitar world.

The player is the private in the equation, and everyone should know that playing ability/style affects tone.

So, in the end, Staff Sergeant Pickup is responsible for raw signal strength and availability; call it "overall tonal PRESENCE." And Lieutenant Colonel Amplifier is responsible for SHAPING what's been presented to them; call it "overall tonal QUALITY."

If a player simply wants to sound better - with "better" being completely ambiguous here - then you might be understating the importance of the amp! In other words, if a beginner asks how to make their entry-level guitar sound better, the answer is: #1 work on technique, #2 buy a killer amp, #3 modify your guitar or buy a new one. (And if you buy that killer amp, it will be SOOOOOOO effective at making you sound better that you will fail to improve as a guitar player.)

But if a player wants to "dial everything in," then you have to break down what each and everything is doing, and then your formula CAN POSSIBLY start falling apart. I'm there now with at least two guitars in my collection...your formula doesn't work for the NEXT step in my process, not in my case.

 

[Gransen]

Re: Unplugged...

I tend to agree with you, Gransen, about the differences one can hear versus whether or not those differences matter. I fully believe that, at the end of the day, no matter how picky we might be about our tone, the vast majority of that pickiness is lost on everyone but ourselves.

That’s OK though. One of the cool things about playing guitar is that there are so many facets with which we can become fascinated. For some guys it’s playing, for some pedals, for some pickups, for some woods... the list is nearly infinite. The fact that we find something in it to enjoy is the REAL thing that matters... no matter how picky about our tone we may or may not be.

I'm guessing that your name is Brian. You sound like a very handsome and intelligent man with a name like that. Congratulations!

Gransen = BriGuy1969

And BriGuy1969 says: "I fully believe that, at the end of the day, no matter how picky we might be about our tone, the vast majority of that pickiness is lost on everyone but ourselves." Quote me.

HEY, CHECK IT OUT, WE TOTALLY THINK ALIKE!

Satisfaction with one's tone leads to confidence when playing. This allows one to start taking risks and exploring new avenues, like a metal player finally ready to dive into fingerstyle in order to deal with the ballads they've been avoiding. So, it's okay to be picky about one's tone, because it inspires confidence. Others then hear the resulting CONFIDENCE, not the altered tone that we were after to inspire this confidence.

A problem that some guitar players face is bringing their own personal anxieties to the table when trying to perfect their tone. Think of Tom Morello and his "Arm The Homeless" guitar. He said that he went through something like 11 guitar necks before he found the right one for that guitar body. Then he said something like, "It's a good thing that the next one was the right one, because I was out of money and needed to start gigging." Dude, there's nothing wrong with the other 11 guitar necks, he just ran out of money worrying about something stupid and then gave himself a frickin' Jedi mind trick: "THIS is the 'droid you're looking for!"

Oh, then his amp got stolen before a gig, so he went to a pawn shop and bought the only P.O.S. that they had in the shop that was even almost worth plugging into...and he uses that amp to this day. "The brilliant are often the train wrecks of the world." You may quote me once again in this negative comment about a highly respected guitar player.

 

[NegativeEase]

Re: Unplugged...

Pickups reconstitute and dominate so much of what you hear acoustically from an Electric Guitar before plugging in. they are the overwhelming greatest factor for the tone -so I would say what you are experiencing sounds right -the crispiest sounding unplugged guitar in the world can easily be smoothed out by a set of smooth pickups and vice versa.

 

[dpaterson]

Re: Unplugged...

^^^ Why do I find myself more often than not of late having to “Like” your posts??? LOL!!!

Agreed. And proven!!!

 

[Gransen]

Re: Unplugged...

Pickups reconstitute and dominate so much of what you hear acoustically from an Electric Guitar before plugging in. they are the overwhelming greatest factor for the tone -so I would say what you are experiencing sounds right -the crispiest sounding unplugged guitar in the world can easily be smoothed out by a set of smooth pickups and vice versa.

I'm torn. This is now one of those things that I have to take with a grain of salt.

You're right! Pickups alter the unplugged tone based on the physics of the design of the pickups. That's why different pickups in the same guitar make the guitar sound different...up to and including COMPLETELY different!

But I read something recently where someone said that they don't like the sound of JB's in a mahogany body. THAT is the logic behind the question! I love JB's and Invaders, but have only played them in mahogany. But since there are differences in the sound that comes from different guitar brands / models even when tonewoods and pickups are identical, I have to ask myself if I'd love them in ANY decently made guitar with a mahogany body and maple neck.

If my parents were grooming me to become an Olympic athlete in the sport of my choosing, it would be "skeleton." Why...??? Because they analyze everything to the N'th degree including air temperature, ice temperature, humidity, dew point, body weight, and even time of day. Then they run like hell and bomb the track face-down and head-first...saying that they can almost even steer the damn thing!

And in the end, when it comes to putting the right pickups in the right guitar, we can almost even steer the damn thing.