valve/tube vs. solid state -- the battle continues

[Simon_F]

Re: valve/tube vs. solid state -- the battle continues

I like my tube Marshalls AND my solid state Tech 21s. On any particular occasion it's about picking the right tool for the job.

 

[ginormous]

Re: valve/tube vs. solid state -- the battle continues

Simon, that's it in a nutshell. My thread is neither endorsement nor disparagement of one or the other.

"Better" is a purely subjective term that is way to dependent upon individuals' tastes and priorities to have a definitive answer. The 8.62% of folks aren't necessarily wrong, they just see things differently.

As evidenced by the strong opinions...
:firing::sword::chairshot:cussing::argue::rocket:
...no one is willing to give up the tube sound.

But let's face it: good quality tube amps (note emphasis) =$$$$ (or Euros, etc.). Having spare tubes on gigs adds to the cost of doing business, and can be impractical for working-class musicians who can't afford Cesar Rojas. Also, there have been tube amps I wouldn't give a penny for, including some of the well-known brands.

However, if history is evidence, there will someday be an amp which gives us the best of both worlds. I'll say it again: design, design, design. That's what separates the Camambert from the Cheez-Wiz.

 

[aleclee]

Re: valve/tube vs. solid state -- the battle continues

Having spare tubes on gigs adds to the cost of doing business, and can be impractical for working-class musicians who can't afford Cesar Rojas

:bsflag:
Pair of EL34s or 6L6s: $25.
Spare 12ax7: $10
Spare fuses: $5 (and you'd carry these even with a SS amp)

Total: $40 spent on spare parts you'll end up using eventually
Being able to fix a non-functional amp on the spot: priceless.

However, if history is evidence, there will someday be an amp which gives us the best of both worlds. I'll say it again: design, design, design. That's what separates the Camambert from the Cheez-Wiz.

IMO, that someday is farther away than you think.

There's a chicken/egg situation here where the vast majority of SS/modeling amps are designed to be cheap rather than to be particularly good. As a result a lot of people think that SS amps are cheap but not so good. This perception makes folks reluctant to pay "good amp" prices for a good non-tube amp. That screws up the demand side of supply/demand and makes manufacturers reluctant to design quality SS amps.

 

[ginormous]

Re: valve/tube vs. solid state -- the battle continues

OK, those are this week's prices. Do you concede that tube prices go up with rarity/demand, depending on which models use whatever preamp and power tubes?

 

[ginormous]

Re: valve/tube vs. solid state -- the battle continues

Also, with every major tech advance there are always the grumpy Luddite grandpa types who prefer things the way they were. It may take 5 years, maybe 10... but it's coming -- bet on it. The Apollo moon launches were done with three 64K computers, 1 online and 2 backups. Now, you've got more processing power than that in the hand controller on a Nintendo Wii.

 

[Luke Duke]

Re: valve/tube vs. solid state -- the battle continues

Simon, that's it in a nutshell. My thread is neither endorsement nor disparagement of one or the other.

Somehow I'm not believing you at this point.

...no one is willing to give up the tube sound.

Why should you if it works for you?

But let's face it: good quality tube amps (note emphasis) =$$$$ (or Euros, etc.). Having spare tubes on gigs adds to the cost of doing business, and can be impractical for working-class musicians who can't afford Cesar Rojas. Also, there have been tube amps I wouldn't give a penny for, including some of the well-known brands.

Working class musician? Are you trying to draw lines in the sand? The way I see it if somebody can't afford a $99 Epi Valve Junior then maybe they should stick to accoustic gigs.

However, if history is evidence, there will someday be an amp which gives us the best of both worlds. I'll say it again: design, design, design. That's what separates the Camambert from the Cheez-Wiz.

I'm all for it if it is made of good parts, is reliable, and SOUNDS good. Right now as it stands most people have SS components in their signal chain so you won't see too many guys making broad statement like "all SS is bad". Otherwise they'd have to throw away their Tubescreamers, Flangers, Phasers, etc, etc, etc.

OK, those are this week's prices. Do you concede that tube prices go up with rarity/demand, depending on which models use whatever preamp and power tubes?

You know New Sensor is making tubes right? You don't HAVE to buy NOS tubes. In fact for many applications it is recommended you not by NOS tubes.

Since I started buying tubes the prices for current production have been constant.

Also, with every major tech advance there are always the grumpy Luddite grandpa types who prefer things the way they were. It may take 5 years, maybe 10... but it's coming -- bet on it. The Apollo moon launches were done with three 64K computers, 1 online and 2 backups. Now, you've got more processing power than that in the hand controller on a Nintendo Wii.

Preferring something because it sounds better doesn't make for a Luddite gradpa type. That's a pretty broad paint brush you're using there bud.

Luke

 

[wahwah]

Re: valve/tube vs. solid state -- the battle continues

Also, with every major tech advance there are always the grumpy Luddite grandpa types who prefer things the way they were. It may take 5 years, maybe 10... but it's coming -- bet on it.

Major tech advances. The germanium transistor. The silicon transistor. The FET. MosFET. The IC chip. A/D - D/A conversion. Digital modeling. There's 40 years of major tech advances. A quick look at history would show that technological advances have helped to make guitar amplifiers lighter to carry, cheaper to manufacture, cheaper to buy and cheaper to maintain. However, they have not improved their tone, at all.

"Grumpy Luddite grandpa types?" What about discerning professional touring and recording musicians, who have the option to use whatever the market provides? Your narrow view seems to suggest that there is some sort of technophobia involved in not embracing the technological advances in amplifier manufacture. In my and many other's cases, this couldn't be any further from the truth. I engineer and produce recordings for a variety of clients on a Mac using a broad range of plug-ins and software instruments. I have embraced those technologies. But when I do my main work as a professional guitarist, I play through tube amplifiers, not because I'm daunted by solid state and digital modeling amplifiers, but because tonally, they suck balls in comparison to my tube amps. It's that simple.


Cheers.......................wahwah

 

[Luke Duke]

Re: valve/tube vs. solid state -- the battle continues

But when I do my main work as a professional guitarist, I play through tube amplifiers, not because I'm daunted by solid state and digital modeling amplifiers, but because tonally, they suck balls in comparison to my tube amps. It's that simple.


Cheers.......................wahwah

:laugh2:

 

[tone4days]

Re: valve/tube vs. solid state -- the battle continues

i alluded to this in luke's fuchs thread ...

i have a mesa roadster head and (2) 1x12" closed back boogie cabs (90w celestions) ... hellaciously cool rig ... tons of major league happenin tones in that thing

and i use a fender ss 1x12" combo ($250 on closeout when mars went outta biz) for weekly practice with my band .. and it sounds **** good to my ears ... plenty of headroom at the volumes we play at .. great crunchy rhythm tone ... very happenin lead tone for soloing ... again, FOR THIS APPLICATION ... it wouldnt hang in a volume shoot out ... but with 3 guitars and keyboards in a small basement, we have to be volume conscious and it works quite well

the mesa is just too **** loud even with just one of the cabs hooked up ... it just doesnt get it happening at low volumes... dunno what it is ...

horses for courses friends

 

[Red_Label]

Re: valve/tube vs. solid state -- the battle continues

I'm confused by some of the statements being made in this thread. Mainly, the ones that say clean headroom between solid state and tube amps is equal, or the nod goes to solid state.

What?!?!?! I've been playing live for 20+ years and thousands of gigs now. Most of that has been in country and classic rock bands because that's what pays the bills around here. So I've had to have my clean tones dialed-in from the get-go. I've used many different tube, solid state, and digital modeling amps over the years. From racks, to 1X12 combos, to half-stacks.

There is NO comparison between CLEAN headroom between tubes and solid state/modeling amps. My last painful example of this lesson was last year. I had sold the Hughes & Kettner Triamp MkI that I had been gigging with for a year. It had awesome clean headroom, but I was tired of lugging it around (96lbs in road case!) and thought I was going to quit gigging for a short while. So I ended-up deciding to keep gigging and didn't have a tube amp handy. Still had my 4X12 Celestion G12H30 loaded cab. So I took one of my home amps to the gig. It was my Behringer Vampire head. It's rated at 2X60 watts stereo, or 1X120 mono. I was playing a small, uncrowded room that tends to be boomy. So I figured no problem, I'll get to keep it turned down anyways. By the end of the night I had that thing maxed-out on the Master Volume with a very clean sound dialed-in. But it wasn't clean. It wasn't nicely overdriven either. It was clipping, and farting-out, and sounding like crap. Would it have been any different with a different brand of modeler or a solid state amp? Nope. I've owned and gigged Yamaha, Peavey, Tech 21, Line 6, and others over the years. None had good clean headroom. Watt for watt they just can't compete with power tubes for clean headroom.

So I bought a Traynor Custom Blue 50 1X12 and was instantly back in good clean headroom territory. With the addition of the extension 1X12 cab I was even better. Now I'm back to gigging a 100 watt tube head with 1 or 2 4X12 cabs and there's just no comparison in terms of headroom. And truth be told, there's no comparison tone-wise either. There are some awesome non-tube amps out there (well, the H&K Zentera anyways). But still... tubes still rule. In the domain of clean headroom, thick complex overtones, even-order harmonics, etc -- tube amps are king. I've 20+ years of being on-stage to tell me that. And it's not that I have any axe to grind with solid state. Because I don't. I've played solid state amps on stage for almost as many years as I have tube amps. They had their purpose and got the job done. But there's NO way they got it done like a good tube amp does. At least not in my experience...

 

[guitfiddle]

Re: valve/tube vs. solid state -- the battle continues

Size, weight, heat generation, reliability, clean headroom...all of this can go jump in the lake and swim, for all I care. The ONLY real qualification is what it sounds like...the TONE, when you're on stage. Bedroom situations and basement practices can NOT tell the tale of tone like being onstage when the drummer's fired up and the band's layin' it down hot. Tubes = the grease that makes fried chicken SO good, and transistors = microwaved tofu without seasoning. Which do YOU want to eat?
Or, if food's not your thing...SS = Jimmy Swagart/Jim Baker vainly pontificating...Tubes = God lovingly speaking to his children.

 

[aleclee]

Re: valve/tube vs. solid state -- the battle continues

OK, those are this week's prices. Do you concede that tube prices go up with rarity/demand, depending on which models use whatever preamp and power tubes?

As with anything, you can always spend more money. What's your point?

Just because I can drop six C-notes on a Waterman pen doesn't mean that a $1 Bic is not a reasonable substitute. If you want fancy stuff, you'll probably pay more. Why would tubes be any different. As with the Bic pen, the tubes in the price range I suggested are perfectly useful. In fact, my favorite EL34-type tubes (EH 6CA7s) have a street price of $25.

 

[skyydogg01]

Re: valve/tube vs. solid state -- the battle continues

it all comes down to "what works for you." I'm perfectly happy with my Crate head ... but I wouldn't kick a Mesa Rectoverb Combo out of bed either. the Crate's working for me now and when I can afford it, i may upgrade to the mesa.

 

[tonedeaf1]

Re: valve/tube vs. solid state -- the battle continues

As much as I love the tube sound, especially Marshall EL34's, I really wish someone would finally invent the SS circuitry that makes tubes obsolete.

 

[ginormous]

Re: valve/tube vs. solid state -- the battle continues

Working class musician? Are you trying to draw lines in the sand? The way I see it if somebody can't afford a $99 Epi Valve Junior then maybe they should stick to accoustic gigs.

Not to get political, but the lines were drawn long before you and I came along, Luke. Besides, not every music store sells Valve Jr's, and not every one is willing to part with them for list. Price gouging for popular items is an old retail tradition.

I'm all for it if it is made of good parts, is reliable, and SOUNDS good. Right now as it stands most people have SS components in their signal chain, so you won't see too many guys making broad statements like "all SS is bad". Otherwise they'd have to throw away their Tubescreamers, Flangers, Phasers, etc, etc, etc.

There have been quite a few in this thread who make that very claim -- "all SS sounds crappy, not enough gain to get above the band," etc. But ironic how so many rely on stompboxes before going into the tube amps, isn't it?

You know New Sensor is making tubes right? You don't HAVE to buy NOS tubes. In fact for many applications it is recommended you not by NOS tubes.

NOS tubes are evaporating. The current Asian-, Russian-, and Eastern European-made tubes are mostly manufactured using old production equipment, ironically enough purchased from the American factories as they shut down. We're not talking about artisans and craftsmen, carving old-growth wood into a work of art. How well do you think they'll be able to maintain quality control of the tubes, if the methods & machines used to make them are becoming more obsolete by the day?

Since I started buying tubes the prices for current production have been constant.

Paradigm: when I started buying tubes, there were name-brand items available at places like Radio Shack, and were cheap as potato chips. I had backups to spare. When my last tube rig quit on me, I had to decide between replacing the preamp and power tubes or paying the rent. Hmmm... tone or homelessness? Decisions, decisions...

Preferring something because it sounds better doesn't make for a Luddite grandpa type. That's a pretty broad paint brush you're using there, bud.

The sound is one (important) thing; simply dismissing a current level of technology because "they don't make 'em like they used to" is another. There are plenty of big, high-wattage tube brushes on this thread, too. My suggestion, nothing more, is that we may have to prepare for --

the last tube. mg::17::scared::11::yell:

There will come a time when there are no more tubes being manufactured, and the remaining stock & NOS will be aggressively hoarded by those few unwilling to part with them for less than a king's ramsom. We need to understand that this time is coming, and will not be denied.

If we acknowledge this, then we can prepare for it, and someone can design and build an actual, real, good-sounding SS amp of reasonable cost, durability and quality. Henry Ford did it with the car, maybe Seymour (or another trusted name, or a maverick rebel with the undeniable spirit of an inventor) can do it with the amp.

 

[guitfiddle]

Re: valve/tube vs. solid state -- the battle continues

Tubes in guitar amps and hi-fi sets aren't going the way of the dinosaur until some RADICAL improvment takes place in the SS or digital realm.
Way I see it, tubes have been "on the way out" for 30+ years, but they're still here, and solid state was supposed to be the "wave of the future", but solid state amps, even after 30+ years of development, still as a group have the sound of a$$, and only hold their place in the market cause they're cheap.
As long as there is a TONE disparity, tubes will never cease to be the chosen tool of tone-conscious players worldwide. In fact, when, other than for nostalgia's sake, has a "dead" technology EVER refused to go away like tubes have? Never, and that's cause they sound best, not better.

 

[Luke Duke]

Re: valve/tube vs. solid state -- the battle continues

Not to get political, but the lines were drawn long before you and I came along, Luke. Besides, not every music store sells Valve Jr's, and not every one is willing to part with them for list. Price gouging for popular items is an old retail tradition.

You can buy them all day off online stores such as MF for 99 dollars.

There have been quite a few in this thread who make that very claim -- "all SS is bad, sounds crappy, not enough gain to get above the band," etc. But ironic how so many rely on stompboxes before going into the tube amps, isn't it?

I can agree with this

NOS tubes are evaporating. The current Asian-, Russian-, and Eastern European-made tubes are mostly manufactured using old production equipment, ironically enough purchased from the American factories as they shut down. We're not talking about artisans and craftsmen, carving old-growth wood into a work of art. How well do you think they'll be able to maintain quality control of the tubes, if the methods & machines used to make them are becoming more obsolete by the day?

What does being obsolete have to do with QC?

I don't think anyone on this forum is going to say that Seth Lovers, Ants, A2Ps, Jazzes, PGs, 59s, and the CS buckers suck and have bad QC because the machine that makes them is older than the hills.

Paradigm: when I started buying tubes, they were available at places like Radio Shack, and were cheap as potato chips. I had backups to spare. When my last tube rig quit on me, I had to decide between replacing the preamp and power tubes or paying the rent. Hmmm... tone or homelessness? Decisions, decisions...

Though I know the first part is true I'm not sure where you are going with it. I'm simply saying that new production prices are constant and not ever increasing like NOS tubes.

As for tone and rent I understand what you're saying there.....but I'm not sure how this relates. Tubes are like strings they go bad then you replace them. We make jokes about people who never expect to change strings. Tubes are no different.

The sound is one (important) thing; simply dismissing a current level of technology because "they don't make 'em like they used to" is another. There are plenty of big, high-wattage tube brushes on this thread, too. My suggestion, nothing more, is that we may have to prepare for --

the last tube. mg::17::scared::11::yell:

There will come a time when there are no more tubes being manufactured, and the remaining stock & NOS will be aggressively hoarded by those few unwilling to part with them for less than a king's ramsom. We need to understand that this time is coming, and will not be denied.

This was the fear of the 80s before New Sensor. Until eastern Europe/ former Soviet Bloc countries and western Russia are a glass parking lot I'm not going to worry about the last tube rolling off an assembly line.

If we acknowledge this, then we can prepare for it, and someone can design and build an actual, real, good-sounding SS amp of reasonable cost, durability and quality. Henry Ford did it with the car, maybe Seymour (or another trusted name, or a maverick rebel with the undeniable spirit of an inventor) can do it with the amp.

You've got a problem there though, what is "good sounding"? A clone of a 59 bassman, or a 66 JTM45. Until there is a fundamental breakthrough in what guitar tone is or should be people are going to continue to pursue those tube sounds. That's why we play passive pups with high impedance circuits.

Not to mention cost for such a breakthrough will HAVE to be passed on to consumers making it much less "reasonable". Then you'll have a series of unscrupulous circuit cloners who will release "almost the same" circuits made with crap parts, shoddy tolerances, in third world countries made by slave labor for more "reasonable" prices.....and will ultimately give the original innovator grief as people say so and so sucks blah blah blah. We all know how online forums can.

Luke

 

[wahwah]

Re: valve/tube vs. solid state -- the battle continues

There have been quite a few in this thread who make that very claim -- "all SS is bad, sounds crappy, not enough gain to get above the band," etc. But ironic how so many rely on stompboxes before going into the tube amps, isn't it?

I was under the impression that we were talking about amplifiers. I'll quote myself from my first post...

The only post-tube technologies I don't have a problem with are the germanium transistors and IC's in top quality pedals, and the reasoning for this is quite sound. The tones that made me want to play guitar in the first place and still inspire me also had some of those technologies in the chain, with most of my favorite players and tones incorporating a germanium treble booster, fuzz or IC overdrive between guitar and vintage tube amp.

Does that mean that I would plug into a Tube Screamer and then straight into a mixing console? Of course not, because that's not what these tools were designed for. Germanium transistors and other solid state devices work brilliantly between guitar and tube amp, and have done since the 60's. But is that the same as having an all SS or digital modeling amplifier driving a set of speakers? At this point, the perceived irony evaporates...

NOS tubes are evaporating. The current Asian-, Russian-, and Eastern European-made tubes are mostly manufactured using old production equipment, ironically enough purchased from the American factories as they shut down. We're not talking about artisans and craftsmen, carving old-growth wood into a work of art. How well do you think they'll be able to maintain quality control of the tubes, if the methods & machines used to make them are becoming more obsolete by the day?

It's always been the case that Russian, Asian and Eastern Bloc tubes have been inferior to US, British and Western European tubes of the Golden Era. They aren't maintaining quality control now, but they still continue to manufacture tubes.

The sound is one (important) thing; simply dismissing a current level of technology because "they don't make 'em like they used to" is another. There are plenty of big, high-wattage tube brushes on this thread, too. My suggestion, nothing more, is that we may have to prepare for --

the last tube. mg::17::scared::11::yell:

The sound is the only thing. If SS or digital modeling amplifiers sounded better than my tube amps I would use them. What I wouldn't do is use them when they sound inferior just so I can say that I am embracing current technology. I agree that this is not an infinite system, however, neither is planet Earth. It is however possible that both will outlive us, in which case, you might be concerning yourself for absolutely no good reason. My current tube collection will probably outlive me.

There will come a time when there are no more tubes being manufactured, and the remaining stock & NOS is being aggressively hoarded by those few unwilling to part with them for less than a king's ramsom. We need to understand that this time is coming, and will not be denied. If we acknowledge this, then we can prepare for it, and design and build an actual, real, good-sounding SS amp.

TUBE ARMAGEDDON...THE END IS NIGH!....KEEP YOUR HANDS OFF MY STASH....I WILL DIE HUDDLED OVER MY LAST FEW RCA BLACKPLATE 12AX7's....THERE'S NO PLACE LIKE TONE, THERE'S NO PLACE LIKE TONE, THERE'S NO....

And then I awoke....it had all been just a terrible dream.

Yeah, somebody should design a really good sounding SS amp. I wonder why nobody's thought to do that yet?


Cheers....................wahwah

 

[ginormous]

Re: valve/tube vs. solid state -- the battle continues

Major tech advances. The germanium transistor. The silicon transistor. The FET. MosFET. The IC chip. A/D - D/A conversion. Digital modeling. There's 40 years of major tech advances.

Don't forget CAD/CAM, wave-soldering, robotic assembly... as to whether the tone is improved, I'll grant that the mass-market is dedicated to profit rather than aesthetic qualities like "does it sound good?" But I say again, tone is so subjective, that guitarists can't even agree what tube amp sounds superior.

"Grumpy Luddite grandpa types?" What about discerning professional touring and recording musicians, who have the option to use whatever the market provides?...Your narrow view seems to suggest that there is some sort of technophobia involved... In my and many other's cases, this couldn't be any further from the truth... I have embraced those technologies.

Wahwah, with your open mind, you can't deny that there is a level of technophobia among some who've fallen prey to the placebo effect: tubes=tone, and damm the man who says otherwise. Even if it has only one tube, they'll still prefer it to a SS unit. Surprising that often, they can't tell if that tube is even in the signal chain!

But when I do my main work as a professional guitarist, I play through tube amplifiers, not because I'm daunted by solid state and digital modeling amplifiers, but because tonally, they suck balls in comparison to my tube amps. It's that simple.

I reiterate that design is crucial in determining how well an amp will sound, no matter what it's made of.

 

[guitfiddle]

Re: valve/tube vs. solid state -- the battle continues

I reiterate that design is crucial in determining how well an amp will sound, no matter what it's made of.

So, in 35 years, why has no SS amp ever sounded as good as the great tube amps, which, by all accounts from electronics savvy guys are under-engineered?
:feedback: